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Capt. Pants

Oliveira?

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The weather and pitches in Germany (especially those in the lower tiers) is just as bad, if not worse than what he will face in England.

There might be something in not having experience of the weekend/weekday schedule - when they do this in Germany it is called an "English week". Ultimately he relies on the advice of his team as well, but as the fitness coach is also from Germany there might be an issue there also.

I flagged much earlier in the season that all the double sessions and training on match days could ultimately cause fitness issues, and that might be coming to fruition now. I was shocked to see that the players were in the gym on Sunday afternoon after the Ipswich game.

Klopp and Wagner have also both suffered recently from not rotating and resting players enough, so maybe there is something in them not adapting from a more sedate schedule. Also in Germany they don''t have a cup as entirely pointless as the League Cup, which Farke seems to have held in too high a regard.

Oh well, the frantic Christmas period is only a month away - the entire squad might not be injured by then.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]I have to say a much as i admire a lot of what Farke has done his handling of our strikers of late has somewhat baffled me, even accepting (as I do) that he has his hands tied somewhat but the ludicrous decision to go into the season with only two strikers.

Repeatedly we have been told Nelson is injured yet he comes on from the bench. Against Ipswich Jerome could basically hardly move from the 60 minute mark onwards and was actually being completely ineffective yet Farke left him on. Then at Arsenal, Oliveira, who has not been fit, has to play 120 minutes despite the fact that he was looking over at the bench and clearly labouring from about the 50th minute onwards.

Part of me wonders whether Farke just doesn''t believe that Nelson is genuinely injured and wanted to try and make him play through it but it was clearly stupid to keep him on for 120 minutes in such circumstances.

Now we''ve got a knackered Jerome who will always put in a shift but is offering zero goal threat and Nelson is injured again, probably as a result of the physical demands of Tuesday night.[/quote]
Jimbo, I reckon the guy who you think doesn''t know what he''s doing is Chris Domogalla. Surely he''s the guy who tells Farke how many minutes each player is capable of. Of course Farke could be over ruling him but then what''s the point of having these people?

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I have to say a much as i admire a lot of what Farke has done his handling of our strikers of late has somewhat baffled me, even accepting (as I do) that he has his hands tied somewhat but the ludicrous decision to go into the season with only two strikers.

Repeatedly we have been told Nelson is injured yet he comes on from the bench. Against Ipswich Jerome could basically hardly move from the 60 minute mark onwards and was actually being completely ineffective yet Farke left him on. Then at Arsenal, Oliveira, who has not been fit, has to play 120 minutes despite the fact that he was looking over at the bench and clearly labouring from about the 50th minute onwards.

Part of me wonders whether Farke just doesn''t believe that Nelson is genuinely injured and wanted to try and make him play through it but it was clearly stupid to keep him on for 120 minutes in such circumstances.

Now we''ve got a knackered Jerome who will always put in a shift but is offering zero goal threat and Nelson is injured again, probably as a result of the physical demands of Tuesday night.[/quote]
Jimbo, I reckon the guy who you think doesn''t know what he''s doing is Chris Domogalla. Surely he''s the guy who tells Farke how many minutes each player is capable of. Of course Farke could be over ruling him but then what''s the point of having these people?
[/quote]

You may be right Nutty but I stood and watched at two consecutive games (Ipswich and Arsenal) to strikers who were clearly out on their feet, slightly hobbling/limping and who I think needed to come off after about an hour but were left on for the full match. I accept we were limited in terms of replacements (essentially each is the replacement for the other so if they are both knackered there is an obvious conundrum) but surely we should have thought about that and worst case scenario stuck Wildshutt up front or put Fonkou or the kid from Orient in the squad for the Arsenal game just to have another option.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I have to say a much as i admire a lot of what Farke has done his handling of our strikers of late has somewhat baffled me, even accepting (as I do) that he has his hands tied somewhat but the ludicrous decision to go into the season with only two strikers.

Repeatedly we have been told Nelson is injured yet he comes on from the bench. Against Ipswich Jerome could basically hardly move from the 60 minute mark onwards and was actually being completely ineffective yet Farke left him on. Then at Arsenal, Oliveira, who has not been fit, has to play 120 minutes despite the fact that he was looking over at the bench and clearly labouring from about the 50th minute onwards.

Part of me wonders whether Farke just doesn''t believe that Nelson is genuinely injured and wanted to try and make him play through it but it was clearly stupid to keep him on for 120 minutes in such circumstances.

Now we''ve got a knackered Jerome who will always put in a shift but is offering zero goal threat and Nelson is injured again, probably as a result of the physical demands of Tuesday night.[/quote]
Jimbo, I reckon the guy who you think doesn''t know what he''s doing is Chris Domogalla. Surely he''s the guy who tells Farke how many minutes each player is capable of. Of course Farke could be over ruling him but then what''s the point of having these people?
[/quote]

You may be right Nutty but I stood and watched at two consecutive games (Ipswich and Arsenal) to strikers who were clearly out on their feet, slightly hobbling/limping and who I think needed to come off after about an hour but were left on for the full match. I accept we were limited in terms of replacements (essentially each is the replacement for the other so if they are both knackered there is an obvious conundrum) but surely we should have thought about that and worst case scenario stuck Wildshutt up front or put Fonkou or the kid from Orient in the squad for the Arsenal game just to have another option.[/quote]
I think we have to be patient Jim. Like with the defence. It''s only a few weeks ago you went off on one about all our defensive signings being ropey. Now it''s this fitness issue. There was a massive change of training methods in the summer. It probably takes longer than 3 months to get the players to where the staff want them to be. I know you don''t like the expression ''Rome wasn''t built in a day'' but I honestly do think we have to remain patient. Of course we could just admit defeat and return to last season''s methods. Just like at the end of August we could have thrown the defenders in the bin and brought back Bassong, Bennett etc.
If the players at the club can''t adapt to the way things are done I rather suspect they will be replaced by players who can rather than the methods being changed to suit. 

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I''m not suggesting reverting to previous methods Nutty nor do I think its a case of players not adapting to methods. I''m talking about "in game" management of the striker resource and making sensible changes so as not to exhaust the limited resources we have.

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I certainly think not signing another striker at this stage is looking like a mistake but that''s easy to say right now. If Oliveira was fit we wouldn''t be complaining about our options as with Jerome that is a strong front two to pick from with Watkins as backup. Hopefully he can get away from this nightmare spell, he didn''t seem to have too many problems last season (foot injury aside which wasn''t muscle related) and has played 30 odd games a season for teams in the past.

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So do we think his injuries are fully down to the new training regime? Or is there something about his heart not being totally committed to us, having missed out on big money move in the summer?

I''m not saying he isn''t injured, but getting a calf injury after less than 10 minutes on the pitch could be seen as a poor warm up or just really bad luck.

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I haven''t seen anything to suggest his heart isn''t in it, and his goal ratio of a goal every 89minutes suggest hes fully committed.

I remember when Pritchard got injured somebody (Farke or Webber?) said it was an ongoing injury that wouldn''t be fully cleared up unless it was operated on, but to have an operation would mean missing a large part of the season. I wonder if Nelson has a similar issue, but we simply cannot afford to be without him for 4-6 months?

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[quote user="Woodman"]So do we think his injuries are fully down to the new training regime? Or is there something about his heart not being totally committed to us, having missed out on big money move in the summer?

I''m not saying he isn''t injured, but getting a calf injury after less than 10 minutes on the pitch could be seen as a poor warm up or just really bad luck.[/quote]

I don;t think he did miss out on a big money move in the summer did he? here was some late Swansea interest but if you read his recent interview he seemed happy to stay at the club.

I have been led to believe that the position with the Reading speculation was that it was not the way around that people are assuming (i.e. that he or his agent was interested in pushing for a move) but rather that at one point (possibly when they were considering whether to try and sell Nelson instead of Howson) Reading were led to believe that a deal may be possible but that the player himself was not interested in leaving and indeed is enjoying being a permanent part of a club for once having been on so many loans previously in his career.

Whether or not Farke thinks Nelson perhaps sometimes doesn''t put in the work of a Jerome (or perhaps play through minor niggles) is a different matter.

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I certainly couldnt see the Reading move happening, didnt seem like a logical step forward for a player who had just got into the Portugal squad.

Wolves would have been much more credible, considering the Portuguese influx, and his agent basically running the show.

As for the Swansea deadline day move, who knows if he was interested, but seems ridiculous to have deadline day on a day when there are international games happening all over the world. He would have been much more focused on playing/scoring for Portugal...

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I don''t think his unlucky bout of injuries has anything to do with transfer speculation, or perhaps training etc, just bad luck. Nelson spoke quite openly about it after the game a few weeks back and basically said he''s frustrated but it has to be carefully managed. He also said he''s not comfortable with his cameos as he''s got no confidence in his body and doesn''t want to risk making it long-term. He also said he is happy here, and gets on well with the coach. I don''t think it''s relevant to his fitness anyway.

The sad reality is we are between a rock and a hard place. We need him to progress, but we can''t risk him playing full 90''s every week because he''s not fully fit.

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"We need him to progress, but we can''t risk him playing full 90''s every week because he''s not fully fit."

This makes playing him for 120 minutes at Arsenal even more difficult to understand.

(I agree with you by the way).

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This upcoming international break could be very important for us. If we can just get 4 points from the two remaining games then we will be well placed and hopefully a few can rest up for a few days and the likes of Tettey and Pritchard will be close to a return.

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Agreed Woodman, there''s been a few games like that with Farke which I struggle to understand. Loaning out our young strikers when it would have been the perfect game to throw them on and give them a run out.

Also good points Jim, might be a bit soon for Pritchard but he certainly won''t be too far away by that point. I hate the international breaks, but they could help us with injuries at the moment.

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Potentially Nutty, but personally I feel regardless of the result it seems a bit odd to play your not fully fit key striker for 120 minutes when he can''t play 90 in the league.

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No I wouldn''t have felt differently Nutty.

I think with the way our squad is right now and the injuries we have and the relentless nature of the championship at this stage of the season getting through (nice as it would have been on some levels) would probably have been counter-productive and certainly not worth risking the fitness of our best striker for.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]No I wouldn''t have felt differently Nutty.

I think with the way our squad is right now and the injuries we have and the relentless nature of the championship at this stage of the season getting through (nice as it would have been on some levels) would probably have been counter-productive and certainly not worth risking the fitness of our best striker for.[/quote]Me neither. I am rather with Bethnal that Farke probably should not have played such a strong team against Arsenal, given the injury situation and the games coming up.

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We shall see I guess. If we miss out in the league by a few points and it''s felt leaving out Oliveira for the cup game could have made the difference then that view is right. However if, come the end of the season, a few points either way makes no difference it won''t. What I''m convinced of is a victory at Arsenal, and we were really close, would have made a big positive difference to our season.
I''m not convinced we''ll get more than 25/28 appearances from Oliveira in any season and I think to get that many would have to include sub appearances. If I''m right big Cam should be the one wrapped in cotton wool.

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I agree with you about him only getting in about 25/28 games Nutty. I read between the lines that Farke often seems very frustrated at this. And I just start to wonder if we may indeed offload him come January? I think your top striker needs to be playing the majority of games not around the 50% mark.

I''m sure Webber will be thinking about this situation ...but what do we have in the pot? Would seem its obvious we sell to buy.

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He isn''t interested. Let us hope some other outfit comes in for him.

Having said that, it must be frustrating running around for nothing.

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Awful today but ill be surprised if anyone is willing to pay a proper fee for him in January.

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I suppose the question is how much of it is down to Nelson being difficult and how much of it is poor man management by Farke?

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What evidence is there of poor man management from Farke? Maddison went and hugged him when he scored today. All ive heard is positive things from that side.

Im not sure Nelsons particularly difficult, I have no idea. But I do know he didnt even bother challenging for anything in the air all game and the only time he bothered to run in behind he was offside.

GJP thats a fair point, and would maybe explain a fair bit (other than us persisting with him for 90 minutes, although its hardly like Jerome has been in good form).

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If a particular player is not putting their all in in games it is reasonable to ask if the man-management is amiss. It may not be and it may be that Nelson has mentally checked out but I don''t know.

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If lots arent putting their all into games then its reasonable. If its just one player then its more likely to be down to that individual.

And whilst we have severely lacked quality I dont think I could claim the players havent been putting shifts in and working hard.

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[quote user="Capt. Pants"]Heart doesn''t seem in at all. Time to cut our losses in January?[/quote]that would leave us with just 1 striker at the club..That Striker is Cameron Jerome. Yesterdays man if ever there was one.the club have said they aren''t going to sign a striker in January (madness!) so both Cam Jam and Nelson will be here in May.

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