Jim Smith 2,314 Posted July 25, 2017 Sorry obviously not Lewis twice! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZLF 271 Posted July 25, 2017 I struggled to put my XI together with any confidence. Franke looks a shoe in at CB, but with Klose injured it highlighted that I really do want another signing there, one of Zimmerman or Martin may be good enough but my confidence is not high. We need a couple more signings.Right back is open for another signing, when Ivo didnt start last season we were less likely to win, and if we go to 3 at the back we highlight further the need for another CB.I like the look of Vrancic, with Reed covered by tettey deep, but a further option to Vrancic appears to be needed. The only challenge in an attacking sense is how to shuffle the cards, even with Pritchards injury and Naismiths suspensions we have options.Its one of our toughest tow away fixtures of the season so I suspect we will be a little more compact and defensive, 3 at the back may be the order of the day, or a deep 4411. Gunn Franke Martin ZimmermanPinto Vrancic Reed Husband Watkins Wildschutt Jerome Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,615 Posted July 25, 2017 [quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="hogesar"]I like Maddison but it''s reasonably clear he''s behind pritchard and wes in terms of ability and understanding of the game[/quote]Is it reasonably clear?[/quote]It should be, if you''ve watched him play and then watched one of the others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ron obvious 1,497 Posted July 25, 2017 Looking at Farke''s comments in the EDP, I suspect we will find Tettey starting as DM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,314 Posted July 25, 2017 [quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="hogesar"]I like Maddison but it''s reasonably clear he''s behind pritchard and wes in terms of ability and understanding of the game[/quote]Is it reasonably clear?[/quote]It should be, if you''ve watched him play and then watched one of the others.[/quote]I respectfully disagree. Reading of the game maybe but talent wise Maddison is just as talented, if not more so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,314 Posted July 25, 2017 [quote user="ron obvious"]Looking at Farke''s comments in the EDP, I suspect we will find Tettey starting as DM.[/quote]As he should. If used correctly and in a well structured team he''s potentially the best DM in the division Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,615 Posted July 25, 2017 [quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="Webbo118"][quote user="hogesar"]I like Maddison but it''s reasonably clear he''s behind pritchard and wes in terms of ability and understanding of the game[/quote]Is it reasonably clear?[/quote]It should be, if you''ve watched him play and then watched one of the others.[/quote]I respectfully disagree. Reading of the game maybe but talent wise Maddison is just as talented, if not more so.[/quote]He might be just as talented but you can''t really tell from a couple of sub appearances towards the end of the season and a good performance against Lowestoft.Don''t get me wrong i''d love for him to be better than both Pritch and Wes but I don''t think there''s any evidence to suggest it''s true and he''s kind of become one of those players everyone raves about with not too much to back it up (not saying it''s the case with you, it''s just a general view). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 25, 2017 Well with Pritchard out till October, and Wes in the twighlight of his career, I can see Maddison getting a fair amount of game time in August and September. I''d expect Wes and Maddison to share game time, although with Maddiosn being more mobile perhaps they can play together, with Maddison playing a bit wider and leaving wes in the hole. GunnPinto Martin Franke Husbands Vrancic Reed Watkins Wes Maddison Oliveria Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rogue Baboon 0 Posted July 26, 2017 Looks like Wildschut may be playing himself into contention as well, would suit wide left in a 343 or 352 with Pinto on the other side Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dicky 0 Posted July 26, 2017 Watched the game last night - Reed was phenomenal - he reminded us of a young Scholes. Maddison also played fantastically. Gunn in goal looked so confident (and tall....). Second half, Naismith looked absolute quality. Loads of reasons for optimism. Downsides - Murphy looked disinterested (thought he would be well up for it now). Zimmerman is huge but slow. Martin, again concerns me, wild passes etc. Olivera in first half looked off the pace, but Jerome second half was all over the pitch. McGovern does not look confident. So, my team:GunnPinto Franke Martin (Klose if fit) HusbandReed Maddison Wildschut Tettey WesJeromeStrangely confident for new season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 26, 2017 [quote user="Dicky"]Watched the game last night - Reed was phenomenal - he reminded us of a young Scholes. Maddison also played fantastically. Gunn in goal looked so confident (and tall....). Second half, Naismith looked absolute quality. Loads of reasons for optimism. Downsides - Murphy looked disinterested (thought he would be well up for it now). Zimmerman is huge but slow. Martin, again concerns me, wild passes etc. Olivera in first half looked off the pace, but Jerome second half was all over the pitch. McGovern does not look confident. So, my team:GunnPinto Franke Martin (Klose if fit) HusbandReed Maddison Wildschut Tettey WesJeromeStrangely confident for new season.[/quote]Maddison has to start for me. He''s looking very confident. Surely Vrancic will start too? And I can''t see Watkins not starting at Fulham either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Woodman 92 Posted July 26, 2017 The only shoe-ins for me are Gunn, Franke, Reed and Vrancic. Wildschut is playing himself into contention - looked good on the highlights from last night.GunnWildschut Martin Zimmerman Franke HusbandReed Vrancic Wes/Maddison MurphyOliveiraSlightly light on the left with Wes/Maddison and Murphy but Vrancic and Reed look like they can cover very well.Haven''t heard much about Watkins, is he one of those with a slight injury? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horse Renoir 1 Posted July 26, 2017 Not a clue, every player has been shifted around a lot this pre season, Naismith has also played a key role which complicates things further. Think it''ll be Jerome over Olivera though, agree with others who think Wildschut may start as well, but if he does then Reed will have to play instead of Tettey, as we can''t play our style with 2/5 midfielders not being able to pass, but that''s risky away from home. Gonna be interesting that''s for sure. Got a feeling he may even pick McGovern as well while he works with Gunn on the training field for a while, he looked a bit shaky v Bielefield Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy_Bones 441 Posted July 26, 2017 [quote user="Horse Renoir"]Reed will have to play instead of Tettey, as we can''t play our style with 2/5 midfielders not being able to pass[/quote]Where does this "Tettey can''t pass" bull$hit keep coming from???He''s consistently been our best passer in terms of accuracy and total passes over the past 5 seasons, yet suddenly now is being tarred with a completely nonsensical brush.Does he make a lot of incisive or ''key'' passes - absolutely not, but that''s not his job, he''s there to break up play, win the ball back and then play a sensible (and usually shorter) pass to a more technically gifted teammate to do something more progressive with, and in this area he excels.PL - 15/16, Tettey averaged 46 passes per game with an 84% success rate, next highest mid was Wes with 37 passes per game and an 82% success rateCH - 14/15. Tettey averaged 53 passes per game with an 86% success rate, next highest mid was Johnson with 48 passes per game and 72% success ratePL - 13/14 Tettey averaged 43 passes per game with an 88% success rate, next highest mid was Johnson (also 43, but lower decimal) and 74% success rateAnd aside from last season where he was clearly struggling a bit more (yet still outpassed virtually everyone bar Dorrans) you have to go back to 12/13 for him to be beaten again, which was Johnson on 45 to Tettey''s 40, but Tettey had a much better 83% success rate over Johnson''s 72%!So can we please stop this garbage about Tettey being unable to pass, as there''s reams of data clearly showing otherwise (and that''s if you can''t somehow see it by watching either). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 26, 2017 With time on the ball Tettey can pass. As can 99% of footballers. The problem is, the position Tettey plays requires him to have a good first touch and be able to shift the ball quickly. Which he struggles to do. He''s often closed down easily, and gives possession away in dangerous areas. Reed is a much better option. Tettey is a destructive player. he performs well at breaking down the opposition play and winning the ball back. He does not do well as single CDM anchor, taking the ball from the back four and distributing. So if Tettey plays, he needs a Vrancic type right next to him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,615 Posted July 26, 2017 I''m not too sure Tettey does give possession away in dangerous areas. Certainly no more than any other midfielder I can think of in recent years at the club. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy_Bones 441 Posted July 26, 2017 [quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]He''s often closed down easily, and gives possession away in dangerous areas.[/quote]Except he doesn''t.Last season, only Dorrans out of all our mids and attackers was dispossessed less than Tettey, and only Dorrans had a higher pass success rate than Tettey (which was still the 2nd best in the team), so we can dispel that myth straight away again.[quote]Reed is a much better option. Tettey is a destructive player. he performs well at breaking down the opposition play and winning the ball back. He does not do well as single CDM anchor, taking the ball from the back four and distributing. So if Tettey plays, he needs a Vrancic type right next to him.[/quote]Tettey isn''t there to take the ball from the back and distribute it ffs, he''s there to re-gain possession, provide defensive cover, and when he does get the ball back, give it to a player with better and more incisive distribution.I didn''t see anyone moaning about Kante, who gets dispossessed more and plays the same number of key passes on average that Tettey does, because again, that''s not his game. Yet apparently some fans want to attack Tettey because he''s not a combination of Kante and Pirlo!I have no idea where this current Tettey bashing trend has appeared from, especially when the majority of it is utterly incorrect statements that the data clearly shows as being nonsense, but any stick to bash the team with eh? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 26, 2017 lol Indy..... I stopped reading mate when you started talking about Kante in the same sentence as Tettey!Football games are not won on stats. You refer to them far too much. Part of CDM''s role is to be an option for the defence to pass to, to relieve the pressure. So even if he doesn''t go looking for the ball, as you imply, he still needs to be available. And in that position its impossible not to receive the ball from the back four fairly regularly. And my opinion remains, in tight spots he is too slow and awkward to deal with the ball effectively. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy_Bones 441 Posted July 26, 2017 [quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]Football games are not won on stats. You refer to them far too much[/quote]Actually, they are.Here''s the most simple one - number of goals scored vs number of goals conceded = result.You seem to think that manager''s just watch a few videos or turn up to a couple of games before deciding if they are going to sign someone, when in fact there is a huge amount of data collated around each player to provide a key role in the decision making process.Just like how you claim that visually you see Tettey giving the ball away too much and not passing very well, the stats show completely the opposite, and because the stats are factual rather than opinion based, they hold the edge in any reasoned debate.[quote]Part of CDM''s role is to be an option for the defence to pass to, to relieve the pressure. So even if he doesn''t go looking for the ball, as you imply, he still needs to be available. And in that position its impossible not to receive the ball from the back four fairly regularly. And my opinion remains, in tight spots he is too slow and awkward to deal with the ball effectively.[/quote]No, that''s YOUR opinion of what role the CDM has to play, giving zero scope for the flexibility of what type of player or role they will play in the position.We used to play David Fox at the bottom of the diamond in the CDM position, could he tackle, intercept, hassle or provide the physical or aerial presence of Tettey? Absolutely not, but what he could do was distribute the ball in exchange for less defensive stability and midfield presence in terms of winning a ball back, much the same as Dorrans did when called upon in that sort of role.Then compare that to say Gary Holt, another noted CDM who would run himself into the floor covering every blade of grass in the middle of the pitch (and many others), yet had mediocre passing and distribution, and wasn''t technically particularly strong. That''s another type of CDM to consider, and one which is closer to Tettey than it is to Fox.Just because you expect either a world class player who can do it all, or if not, a deep lying playmaker who will take the ball from defence and do something great with it, doesn''t mean that these are the only options available, and indeed many sides DON''T have these options, which is why you often get less technically gifted, but more physical and higher work rate individuals in the role as they can easily pass a short ball to someone who IS better at passing once they have regained possession.You say that I focus on stats too much, I have to wonder what you even look at if you''re going to present such a blinkered view of positions and roles... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horse Renoir 1 Posted July 26, 2017 Ahh stats. You would expect a player to have a good pass rate if he always takes his time to bring the ball under control and makes the simple sideways pass almost every time. Nothing wrong with that in most instances, but from what I''ve seen so far of our style under Farke i think Tettey will struggle. He can pass, as can every professional footballer obviously, he cannot however move the ball quickly, he doesn''t have the speed of thought or technique to release the ball to a team mate in a forward position, nor can he actually pass quickly enough to move opposition players out of shape, his first touch is suspect and he''s extremely easy to tackle. He''s a good player and a great guy but I don''t think he can play an effective role in this team. That DM position is absolutely vital and you need a range of passing in your locker to keep us ticking over. Reed is nowhere near Tettey''s level when it comes to all round defensive/off the ball work but he can do it competently, at least as good as David Fox did it AND he''s an excellent technical player who can hold the ball up and start our attacks. Can''t pass was harsh, but I think he''ll struggle this year. If i''m wrong bump this post and i''ll own up to it, I''m pretty confidant here though, I think he''ll find himself out of favour and will get a loan away in Jan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 27, 2017 Well put Horse, very much echos my post and thoughts. Indy, stats are such a simplistic way of looking at football. As Horse points out, if Tetteys passes are all short, one dimensional, 5 yard passes, then how can stats really prove he is a good passer of the ball?Next time he plays, how about you actually watch him instead of counting the number of corners and throw ins, and you''ll see that Tettey has a very uncomfortable first touch, and his passing is slow, predictable and laborious. Don''t get me wrong, Tettey does have good attributes. His battling and combative nature works well in set up where he isn''t the sole CDM anchor. But theses attributes are rapidly diminishing as he enters the twilight years of his career, and his effectiveness is becoming less an less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,615 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="lincoln canary"]Well put Horse, very much echos my post and thoughts. Indy, stats are such a simplistic way of looking at football. As Horse points out, if Tetteys passes are all short, one dimensional, 5 yard passes, then how can stats really prove he is a good passer of the ball?Next time he plays, how about you actually watch him instead of counting the number of corners and throw ins, and you''ll see that Tettey has a very uncomfortable first touch, and his passing is slow, predictable and laborious. Don''t get me wrong, Tettey does have good attributes. His battling and combative nature works well in set up where he isn''t the sole CDM anchor. But theses attributes are rapidly diminishing as he enters the twilight years of his career, and his effectiveness is becoming less an less.[/quote]But the stats Indy are using completely contradict every point you''ve made so their entirely relevant. Not forgetting of course that top clubs all over the world invest hundreds of thousands if not millions on gathering and interpreting these stats - so reckon they''re quite important personally.You''ve said Tettey can''t pass. Statistically that''s not correct. You then changed your tune to saying that he gets dispossessed alot. That''s also factually untrue. You can''t just keep moving the goalposts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy_Bones 441 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="hogesar"]You''ve said Tettey can''t pass. Statistically that''s not correct. You then changed your tune to saying that he gets dispossessed alot. That''s also factually untrue. You can''t just keep moving the goalposts.[/quote]That''s all they keep doing Hog.We''ve now moved onto - ok, so maybe he can pass and maybe he doesn''t get dispossessed that much, but his first touch is weak, his passing is now slow and they''re all simple, one-dimensional passes!He''s a f**king defensive midfielder ffs, he''s not a deep lying playmaker, nor is he a Gerrard or Scholes type, who can spray inch perfect 40 yard balls to the strikers, but that''s now also a stick some fans are going to use to beat him with.Funny how when players like Makelele became known globally for playing the exact same sort of role they were lauded for what they brought to the team regardless of the fact that the majority of their passing was one-dimensional short passes, whereas in Tettey''s case, it''s apparently a reason to sl*g the guy off instead...PS, I have watched plenty of Tettey play Lincoln, the difference is that I''m not comparing him to the bizarre fictional yardstick that you''ve set in your mind about what he should play like, and instead I judge him on the player he is and what he offers to the side. Every manager since he''s signed for us has agreed with me funny enough, and the stats back this up even further... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="hogesar"][quote user="lincoln canary"]Well put Horse, very much echos my post and thoughts. Indy, stats are such a simplistic way of looking at football. As Horse points out, if Tetteys passes are all short, one dimensional, 5 yard passes, then how can stats really prove he is a good passer of the ball?Next time he plays, how about you actually watch him instead of counting the number of corners and throw ins, and you''ll see that Tettey has a very uncomfortable first touch, and his passing is slow, predictable and laborious. Don''t get me wrong, Tettey does have good attributes. His battling and combative nature works well in set up where he isn''t the sole CDM anchor. But theses attributes are rapidly diminishing as he enters the twilight years of his career, and his effectiveness is becoming less an less.[/quote]But the stats Indy are using completely contradict every point you''ve made so their entirely relevant. Not forgetting of course that top clubs all over the world invest hundreds of thousands if not millions on gathering and interpreting these stats - so reckon they''re quite important personally.You''ve said Tettey can''t pass. Statistically that''s not correct. You then changed your tune to saying that he gets dispossessed alot. That''s also factually untrue. You can''t just keep moving the goalposts.[/quote]Stats are simplistic. Passing is a very dynamic attribute, which Stats don''t account for. I said he gives possession away in dangerous areas, where have I changed my tune? Your wrong to suggest i''m moving the goal posts. My views on Tettey are consistent. He is touch and passing are not good enough or quick enough to play in holding anchor midfield role. Regardless of stats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="hogesar"]You''ve said Tettey can''t pass. Statistically that''s not correct. You then changed your tune to saying that he gets dispossessed alot. That''s also factually untrue. You can''t just keep moving the goalposts.[/quote]That''s all they keep doing Hog.We''ve now moved onto - ok, so maybe he can pass and maybe he doesn''t get dispossessed that much, but his first touch is weak, his passing is now slow and they''re all simple, one-dimensional passes!He''s a f**king defensive midfielder ffs, he''s not a deep lying playmaker, nor is he a Gerrard or Scholes type, who can spray inch perfect 40 yard balls to the strikers, but that''s now also a stick some fans are going to use to beat him with.Funny how when players like Makelele became known globally for playing the exact same sort of role they were lauded for what they brought to the team regardless of the fact that the majority of their passing was one-dimensional short passes, whereas in Tettey''s case, it''s apparently a reason to sl*g the guy off instead...PS, I have watched plenty of Tettey play Lincoln, the difference is that I''m not comparing him to the bizarre fictional yardstick that you''ve set in your mind about what he should play like, and instead I judge him on the player he is and what he offers to the side. Every manager since he''s signed for us has agreed with me funny enough, and the stats back this up even further...[/quote]No Indy, your comparning him to Makelele and Kante FFS! Makelele and Kante could/can shift the ball quickly and close down opposition at speed. They both have a good touch and a engine far better than most. That''s why they excel in their positions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy_Bones 441 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]No Indy, your comparning him to Makelele and Kante FFS![/quote]Do you just selectively pick out what you want and ignore anything else Lincoln?What I have clearly pointed out is that Tettey plays a similar ROLE to the likes of Makelele and Kante, neither were/are known for their ability to ping inch perfect balls forward, neither are players that sit in a deep lying role looking to bring others into the play, whereas both are players known for their workrate, ability to break up play and then give a simple pass to another teammate once this job is done, which is exactly the same role that Tettey plays for us. Clearly both were better overall players than Tettey, but I''m not saying he''s as good as they were/are, simply that he does the same role, which is apparently what you have an issue with.[quote]Makelele and Kante could/can shift the ball quickly and close down opposition at speed. They both have a good touch and a engine far better than most. That''s why they excel in their positions.[/quote]A) If Tettey takes too long to pass the ball, why isn''t he dispossessed more, and why isn''t his passing accuracy much lower to account for the frequent times you claim he gives the ball away in poor positions?B) There''s never been anything wrong with Tettey''s engine when he''s fully fit, and whilst injuries have caused problems, I''ve never seen accusations about him being lazy or far too slow to close players down in the middle of the park, in fact it''s one of his better attributes FFS!C) Name a better defensive mid who has played this role for us since Gary Holt back in the day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJP 79 Posted July 27, 2017 Tettey is/was better than Gary Holt too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="GJP"]Tettey is/was better than Gary Holt too.[/quote]I beg to differ on that one! Tettey is better in a 4-4-2 formation, a formation which saw Gary Holt excel. Had Holt played in a CDM anchor role, he''d have struggled. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Vince 318 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Based on the current squad, with Klose & Pritchard injured & Naismith suspended...I can see a 4-2-3-1...GunnPinto - Martin - Franke - HusbandTettey - VrancicWatkins - Hoolahan - MurphyOlivieraMartin & Tettey wouldn''t be my first choice, but can see them starting for the experience they bring[/quote]KeelanCulverhouse Watson Bruce BowenGordon Phelan Crook TownsendFleck Sutton Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0 Posted July 27, 2017 [quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="lincoln canary Golden Coppel"]No Indy, your comparning him to Makelele and Kante FFS![/quote]Do you just selectively pick out what you want and ignore anything else Lincoln?What I have clearly pointed out is that Tettey plays a similar ROLE to the likes of Makelele and Kante, neither were/are known for their ability to ping inch perfect balls forward, neither are players that sit in a deep lying role looking to bring others into the play, whereas both are players known for their workrate, ability to break up play and then give a simple pass to another teammate once this job is done, which is exactly the same role that Tettey plays for us. Clearly both were better overall players than Tettey, but I''m not saying he''s as good as they were/are, simply that he does the same role, which is apparently what you have an issue with.[quote]Makelele and Kante could/can shift the ball quickly and close down opposition at speed. They both have a good touch and a engine far better than most. That''s why they excel in their positions.[/quote]A) If Tettey takes too long to pass the ball, why isn''t he dispossessed more, and why isn''t his passing accuracy much lower to account for the frequent times you claim he gives the ball away in poor positions?B) There''s never been anything wrong with Tettey''s engine when he''s fully fit, and whilst injuries have caused problems, I''ve never seen accusations about him being lazy or far too slow to close players down in the middle of the park, in fact it''s one of his better attributes FFS!C) Name a better defensive mid who has played this role for us since Gary Holt back in the day.[/quote]David Fox, Andrew Surman, Graham Dorrans, Andrew Crofts..... all played as CDM anchors at times and IMO much better than Tettey currently is. And before you bang on about how much of a better tackler Tettey is than Fox etc etc.... My point their all round games were better than Tettey''s, and had a more positive effect on the teams performance. And please don''t forget, I''m judging this on Tettey''s current abillity, which has diminished from the player we first signed a few years back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites