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Crabbycanary3

Top 6 finish

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Good thread - interesting how most punters are cautiously optimistic while the trolls/pessimists remain half-empty.

We have lost a lot of big names, but not many were actually first choice players (Ruddy, Howson, Jacob and at a push Dorrans). From what I saw on Saturday, the new squad has bought into the DF philosophy and players like Vrancic, Reed and the new CBs will improve us defensively. Going forward, we still have the core of a squad from last year that can and will score goals.

Villa, Boro, Wolves, Fulham, us and Sheff Weds will be up there. Not many have mentioned Reading, but I think Stam is a good manager/coach, so I think they''ll do well too.

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May be the thread is incorrectly titled and should refer to a top eight finish as there seem to be about eight sides, and very much including us, who would seem to be the favourites in the race as things now stand.

The others:-

''Boro, Villa, Wednesday, Derby, Wolves, Fulham, Sunderland (not Hull) are the others, with only Middlesboro seeming to stand out above the pack (and we know what that could mean.)

The obligatory ''dark horse'' could be Brentford.

Any of these teams could be anywhere in the mix. It''s a total toss up for me and Saturday might well tell us more than we expect.

Hey! Non of them is a Premier league outfit by some stretch so let''s hope the "others" are the "also rans" by the season''s end.

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Maybe I''ve missed something but I don''t know why Villa are being touted for automatic promotion (and not just here), they seem more like QPR 2.0 to me. Aside from Kodjia and a couple of others their squad is pretty average.
As for Norwich, if we''re lucky with injuries I think we can push for the Playoffs. My biggest concern is if we can adjust to the possession style and carve out good chances when opponents are happy to park the bus.

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Depends how the new defence works. If it is even half decent we will make top 6 no problem with the amount of attacking talent we have. Like the look of vrancic in the middle already.

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[quote user="lincoln canary"]Yes Brentford will do well. They finished last season very strongly and in Jota and Vibe possibly have the best attacking midfielder and striker in the league.

They''ve also made a couple of very good signings.[/quote]
Brentford will do quite well but i''m not sure Vibe is the best striker in the league. Well I know he''s not. Not sure Jota is the best attacking midfielder either. After all, they wouldn''t be at Brentford if they were.
Also, little ironic that you can see Brentford doing very well but us not being close to a play-off spot citing our defensive problems considering they only conceded 4 less goals than us last season.

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I think a few teams such as reading and 9to a lesser degree Fulham) are being overrated as a consequence of the significant underperformance of the likes of us and Villa last season.

Reading in particular are a very average side who should have been nowhere near the playoff final. I don''t really rate Sheffield Wednesday either.

Fulham play some nice stuff but have a small squad and again were really the beneficiaries of other teams falling away and not challenging as much as anything.

I think the two to fear are Middlesboro (who seem in the best shape of the relegated clubs) and Villa (who could be hard to stop if they get on a roll).

Other than them there are probably about 12 clubs who will feel they have a genuine chance of top 6. again for me failure to make the top 6 this season will be another failure on the part of NCFC. I have patience with Farke and Webber, I have no patience with the board and if we fail again this season and see the squad break up further as a consequence then they will be fully to blame.

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="lincoln canary"]Yes Brentford will do well. They finished last season very strongly and in Jota and Vibe possibly have the best attacking midfielder and striker in the league.

They''ve also made a couple of very good signings.[/quote]
Brentford will do quite well but i''m not sure Vibe is the best striker in the league. Well I know he''s not. Not sure Jota is the best attacking midfielder either. After all, they wouldn''t be at Brentford if they were.
Also, little ironic that you can see Brentford doing very well but us not being close to a play-off spot citing our defensive problems considering they only conceded 4 less goals than us last season.
[/quote]

Brentford finished last season strongly, and Vibe and Jota were on fine form.

Maybe my praise of Vibe is a little much, but I''d tip him to be there or there about for the leagues top goalscorer next season.

Jota is pure quality. He''s definitely up their with the best in this league, similar standard to Pritchard IMO.

They have also signed a DM who was FC Twente captain last year. I personally don''t know much about him, but he''s getting rave reviews, and seems to be the type of player we need to tighten things up a bit.

I''m just not sure we''re quite ''tough'' enough to consistently challenge. A new DM, and CB could change that though. We''re not miles away by any means, but we are light. I expected a few more signings to be honest.

I would have liked a more experienced keeper too. Time will obviously tell!

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Mmm, just been on William Hill''s site, and saw an interesting (?) bet .

It was Villa, Norwich, Wolves, Fulham, Middlesboro and Sheff Wed to finish in the top 6 at 80/1 yet another bet, just replacing us with Leeds, for that top 6, is 100/1

I''ve asked about a combined bet of us being promoted, and the Binners getting relegated, but they haven''t got back to me yet!

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[quote user="Crabbycanary3"]I have seen a few people, on here, say that Top 6 would be tough to finish in come the end of the season.

Which teams, in no particular order necessarily, do PinkUnites think will finish in the Top 6?

Are the Happy Clappers too excited that the new system will (eventually, after ''bedding'' in?) reap rewards, and we will indeed have one of those positions, or are fans being realistic with their opinions of other teams squad strength/coaching/team etc?[/quote]

If the boy Farke maintains his goals against average of less than a goal per game, then Norwich City ought to win the league comfortably.

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[quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="lincoln canary"]Yes Brentford will do well. They finished last season very strongly and in Jota and Vibe possibly have the best attacking midfielder and striker in the league.

They''ve also made a couple of very good signings.[/quote]
Brentford will do quite well but i''m not sure Vibe is the best striker in the league. Well I know he''s not. Not sure Jota is the best attacking midfielder either. After all, they wouldn''t be at Brentford if they were.
Also, little ironic that you can see Brentford doing very well but us not being close to a play-off spot citing our defensive problems considering they only conceded 4 less goals than us last season.
[/quote]

Brentford finished last season strongly, and Vibe and Jota were on fine form.

Maybe my praise of Vibe is a little much, but I''d tip him to be there or there about for the leagues top goalscorer next season.

Jota is pure quality. He''s definitely up their with the best in this league, similar standard to Pritchard IMO.

They have also signed a DM who was FC Twente captain last year. I personally don''t know much about him, but he''s getting rave reviews, and seems to be the type of player we need to tighten things up a bit.

I''m just not sure we''re quite ''tough'' enough to consistently challenge. A new DM, and CB could change that though. We''re not miles away by any means, but we are light. I expected a few more signings to be honest.

I would have liked a more experienced keeper too. Time will obviously tell![/quote]
That''s fair. We don''t have massive physical presence in the middle of the park but I think Farke''s playing style tries to compensate for that.

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Still have doubts about the center back formation also Gunn looks nervous and unsure on crosses. Pity we did not go for an experienced keeper

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[quote user="daly"]Still have doubts about the center back formation also Gunn looks nervous and unsure on crosses. Pity we did not go for an experienced keeper[/quote]?

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Almost impossible to predict after a preseason, I did like the way we played against Brighton and am hopeful that we can continue to play with confidence and assurance, but preseason friendlies

really are no indication of how things will go when the real action starts.

I am an optimist and I love the management team we have put together so will say we will finish around 4th.

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Im confident we''ll finish top 6, other teams who will join us I think could be these 5 though Wolves wont be far off or should be with the millions they''ve spent

M''Boro

Sunderland

Derby

Sheffield Wed

Fulham

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We''ve got so many unknowns though that is easy to picture both the best and worst case scenario.

Best case is our players all adapt quickly to the new style, Farke gets the defense organised, Josh and Maddison step up and Nelson stays fit scoring 25 goals and we go up top two.

Worst case is a slow pickup of the new system, signings like Franke and Vranic struggling to adapt, Nelson, Pinto and Klose all pick up injuries again and Gunn cracks under the pressure of being first choice. We sit 13th in Jan, sell Klose, Pritchard and others and limp through to May.

I believe scenario one is more likely but scenario two isn''t a huge leap either.

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[quote user="daly"]Still have doubts about the center back formation also Gunn looks nervous and unsure on crosses. Pity we did not go for an experienced keeper[/quote]We had an experienced keeper in Ruddy, and he hadn''t been good enough for the past 2 seasons with all his experience.We''ve still got an experienced keeper in McGovern, and he''s not good enough either.The truth is that we can''t afford top quality keeper with experience (e.g. Begovic etc) so I''d rather give a chance to a younger, less experienced keeper with real talent and potential than I would an experienced clogger who isn''t up to it regardless of their history.

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The middle ground is McGovern/Ruddy... experienced but not quite good enough. We could have gone the German route perhaps? They usually have pretty good keepers!

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[quote user="Tetteys Jig"]The middle ground is McGovern/Ruddy... experienced but not quite good enough.[/quote]Exactly.It wasn''t that long ago that Ruddy got his England call-up, how much better does someone need to be when they get called up to one of the better international sides in the world???Let''s also not forget that McGovern also had a superb tournament at Euro 2016 the season before.Players like this are very much the middle ground between proven Premier League (or similar level) keepers, and young talented players (and let''s not forget how poor De Gea looked at times very early in his Man Utd career).

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Gunn is the most extreme end of young and up and coming though - if he starts Saturday it will be his first minutes of first team football. I''m sure he''s well scouted but it''s also a huge gamble. Remi Matthews has more experience.

I''m also less convinced about how good it is to have someone this raw as a loanee starting. If he''s great it only benefits Man City after this season, if he struggles it only hurts us.

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If he is great it benefits Norwich as they have a great keeper for a season - and one they have had to spend very little on.

If he isn''t great, then Norwich can replace him and haven''t wasted a large sum of cash bringing him in.

While I am a little concerned by his lack of experience and the big step up he has to take this season, I would rather go with Gunn than Ruddy who has been pretty bad for 2/3 seasons.

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Surely it partly depends where he''s been - I''d prefer Gunn, having been at Man City and training with/facing top players, over our other options who have had plenty of first team experience. The reason he''s not played is because he''s at a top side, not because he''s not up to it; think Forster et al. It also worked out ok at Hudds last season.

Re: who benefits, it is the player and us, mainly. If we go up we can look to sign him - the chances are Man C will be looking at proven internationals; the sad fact is that for all the youth investment, the top sides rarely seem to bring players through their own ranks. If it doesn''t work out, there''s plenty of keeper options at our club and beyond.

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Danny Ward and Fraser Forster had at least both played first team football before going to Huddersfield and Norwich respectively.

There is such a difference between training and matches that I don''t but much credence in Gunn being good because he has trained with Aguero et al.

The real test for him will be when he makes a mistake and fans are giving him sh*t. Can''t replicated that in training, or youth team games. It is more a test of his character than his ability.

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@bethnal

I''m not suggesting sticking with Ruddy. But to have a player in such an important position with absolutely no experience scares me at this level.

The point about not owning him is also based on our financial situation - to be sustainable we need young players with resale value. If Gunn is great but we don''t go up then it''s back to square one with only City benefiting from the boost in value. I understand the reason for loans but I''d much rather we have loanees with a bit of experience (like Reed) than those with none.

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I totally get where you''re coming from King, but in reality, which keeper would likely be available to fit the ideal criteria that you''re looking for - AND be within our price range for transfer fee and wages?It''s cost Everton 30m for Pickford on the back of one good season for an awful Sunderland team, Bournemouth had to pay 10m for Begovic who was simply warming Chelsea''s bench (admittedly he was well proven before this point), Liverpool paid around 5m for Karius and he''s been mainly awful for them, etc, etc.I''m not saying that potentially there aren''t better options out there than gambling on Gunn, but in truth they''d probably represent just as much of a gamble in many ways, and likely cost us much more overall. Just look at Brighton signing the next Theoklitos, could be good, could be awful...

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I don''t understand the support behind Fulham and Sheff Wed, both average sides.

Middlesboro have undoubtedly the squad in the division, though I don''t think its stronger than Newcastles from last season and at times they struggled to get over the line.

Wolves should be in the top 6. Reading could build under Stam.

Think Villa could struggle, Terry/Samba centre half pairing must be the slowest in the league.

Derby have lost three key players, Leeds have lost Monk who for me were the reason Leeds flirted with the playoffs.

Birmingham could be dark horses under old Harry.

As for us, I think we all have to understand we are in a transition period and one which may take us 2-3 years to come out of. If we are going to embrace Farke''s/Webbers ideas then there is no point changing him in 6-12 months time.

Recruitment wise, its hard to be impressed. We have seemingly lost our best player in Howson, for peanuts to a promotion rival, lost Murphy who could have had a huge part to play this season along with Dorran''s experience.

Replacing these with somewhat unknown Germans, a lad from Barnsley, James Husbands and a couple of young loanees, I certainly would say that we were in a weaker place now than we were 12 months ago.

The one signing I am particularly keen to see is Vranic.

Whats most frustrating is that the money we have brought in, (and money we cant have budgeted for) appears to have gone nowhere?

That said the unknown is exciting and by all accounts (and what I''ve seen) we''ve looked good in pre-season, pressuring and passing. If we keep Nelson fit, have Pritchard fulfilling is promise, young Murphy breaking into the first team, Reed giving us steel, Vranic being the player we all want him to be and the Germans shoring up our defense, we could, could be in for a successful and exciting season.

There''s little point aiming for the top 10, so 6th as to be the target, but as said previously we have to be prepared to give Farke time.

I''m neither a doom monger, nor a happy clapper, just a realist.

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David Stockdale moved for free, Sam Johnston went on loan to villa, we even sold a keeper with a couple of years experience for £1m. That is just off the top of my head.

The thing is, Gunn might turn out to be fantastic but in a team full of unknown quantities he is the biggest. Even if he''d spent 6 month''s on loan at a team in League Two I''d feel happier.

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