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rock bus

Farke will need to show patience and faith as well as us

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In the aftermath of Sunday there have been lots of calls for wholesale changes to the side, formation and style of play.

Whilst I can appreciate people''s frustration with the result and more importantly performance, it will be essential that Farke remains strong. We can''t have a manager who keeps chopping and changing just in reaction to each result every week. Or one who is immediately susceptible to the moans of us fans.

He needs to allow the formation and style to bed in and become second nature to the players. Otherwise the whole turnaround in coaching staff and players will have been a waste of valuable time.

For me, I''d just look at straight swaps i.e. Oliveira for Jerome, pinto for wildschutt, and someone for Naismith.

Although if we had another option for left back I''d also drop Husband.

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Good post Rocko.

Reading some of the blogs etc since the game so many seemed to be about how the fans reacted/will react. They complicate a simple truism that fans reaction will be generally good if we are winning enough games to be in the mix but bad it we''re not. There''s only a minority of fans who''d criticise the style of play if we are up and around the top.

Of course sticking by his principals will invite the no plan b criticism if we are not up there.

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For me, there were three separate issues...

Team selection - we have seen that we are better when Wes, Oli & Pinto are on the pitch. Picking your strongest team is surely one of the most basic things there is.

Formation - was too narrow. Left side was non-existent, right side not much better. Everything was far too central & easy to defend against. Sunderland were not good, but we were extremely easy to defend against and they wont be the last team to set up like that at Carrow Road this season

Speed of play - sideways, sideways, backwards, repeat. At 1-0 down we were playing like 3-0 up. We just needed to mix it up to give them something else to think about. Farke said after the game that with all our possession he thought Sunderland would eventually break down. Well the Championship is not like that. Its worth nothing that Reading had more possession than us, yet we beat them 7-1.

We were faced with a team that were drilled to do the basics, and we struggled badly. the problems are not terminal, but they certainly need looking at

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The substitutions were like for like on Sunday, which to my view was disappointing as it obviously wasn''t working. That doesn''t mean it won''t work against other teams tho.

I agree with your suggestion from the start though rocky. Not sure I''d start Watkins personally.

I agree it''s a work in progress and patience required from all sides but the fans will accept a poor performance if it brings a win, equally a defeat with the players trying and giving their all will always be appreciated, in my book.

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"Everything was far too central & easy to defend against. Sunderland were not good, but we were extremely easy to defend against..."

I very much agree with this statement, but we did make a change to our formation from 3/5 at the back to a 4-4-1-1 when Wes and Murphy came on - and looked better as a result. Murphy on the left in particular looked dangerous.

I''m not so worried about the pace of play - I think we looked confident in possession, but needed a bit of variety/pace/width to create more goal scoring opportunities.

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Team selection - we have seen that we are better when Wes, Oli & Pinto are on the pitch. Picking your strongest team is surely one of the most basic things there is.[/quote]Agreed, but we have to look at this sensibly.Pinto is only just back from injury, Wes is 35 and is unlikely to be able to play week-in, week-out, and then you have Nelson who may well have been playing if he''d not acted so badly last week against Fulham.

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@Woodman - it was also the same at Fulham where we made the same change & got back into the game

@Indy_Bones - yes I agree, but then you have to question why they started against Swindon instead of Sunderland

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I agree that our attacking formation was too narrow (there was space down the flanks which we didn''t use often or effectively enough), and also that the defensive formation was too wide. I thought we were susceptible to the balls just pinged down the channels between the back 3. It was almost as though the wider of the 3 felt they needed to cover for the wingbacks to a greater extent than they actually did. Had they tightened up a bit we''d have controlled the simple longer balls much better.

I though Harrison Reed had a great game, the exception being his sideways misplaced pass early in the first half, Maddison was busy and controlled the middle but tried to do too much by himself. Felt sorry for CJ feeding off scraps when often tightly marked. Naismith busy but seemed a bit lost as to what his true role was.

The key forward issues for me were:

1. Watkins had a shocker and seemed incapable of either holding up the ball or playing the neater stuff required around the box.

2. Husband is not really a wing back, effective player but seemed to play wide left midfield rather than bombing down the flanks as a true winger

3. Wildschut got into some great great positions but headless chicken syndrome took over with the end product.

I agree with the OP and would add that in my opinion some of these issues are relatively easily fixed in time when things start to bed down and we have a full squad again.

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To my mind it is working.The formation and set up stuff is boll ox on a stick. Point out where the ''formation and set up'' were at fault with the conceded goals.Farke''s idea is much more about motivation and keeping that motivation going for every minute of the whole game, If we looked vastly inferior then there would be a case, We were not.Similarly we contained Fulham , who tore into us and last seasom would have seen that one nil increased by a fair few more. That is not about formation or set up (whatever they are) but being able to continue to battle. Something anyone watching us last season would evaporate all too easily many times.Fulham threw the kitchen sink at us but didn''t really get through. Sunderland sat back as often away teams do, hoping to catch us on the break. This is how football is. Teams will size each other up and play accordingly, rather than as some cricket field settings.Are the players up to it is the question rather than has Farke set out them out correctly like some game of battleships. I believe they are. And I''m sure he is well aware that the Championship is rather a ''robust'' league, hence the size of most of his signings.You can chunter on all day about how you supposedly set out the players but it is all meaninglesss. It is about how to stop/ and explot the opposition. That is done by the players, not a chess pieces.Both league games saw substitutions that could be said to be rapiers replacing broadswords. Much as with cricket, See out the new ball then attack when the shine has wore off. Different batsman for different ''jobs''. Against Swindon once a come back for them looked on then bring on old hands to shore things up and see out the game.Against QPR the starting line up will be what the coach sees as the best way to exploit their perceived weaknesses and to counteract their strengths. That will be by personel - not some glorified flower arrangement. It will also be on the basis that City will have to take the initiative. Again, that will be tactical. Be prepared to be more direct and accept losing possession as an acceptable risk. Engourage the players to take chances, individual skill by players such as Maddison, Murphy, Hoolahan and even Watkins.Farke told us we would see exciting football - so get the players fully fit and raring to go and then let them play as they know best.That''s all

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I suggest you read and try to understand some of Parma''s excellent analysis, it might prevent you spouting this childlike tripe in the future.

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[quote user="Van wink"]I suggest you read and try to understand some of Parma''s excellent analysis, it might prevent you spouting this childlike tripe in the future.[/quote]Indeed Winky as it appears you just put eleven players out on the pitch to do their thing with no regard to systems or tactics,a sort of kick and rush.

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The truth has to be somewhere between the two extremes. Motivation, fitness and work ethic - absolutely, but the whole point of strategies, tactics and training routines is to make sure that certain traits become ingrained and automatic in matches - which is why we have who we have as head coach - someone who will encompass all the above.

That he needs to be strong and true to his cause is an absolute necessity - but that is where Webber comes in - to ensure that happens. We don''t want another AN scenario where the manager appears to lose his strength with the players - the new regime is built entirely to stop this from happening. There is a clear vision, there is an overseer to make sure it happens - and if Farke doesn''t deliver then he will be changed. However, there is no reason to think Farke won''t be strong - that we need him to be is true of course. We all need patience and see how things develop.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]In Maniacal Bill''s defence, he didn''t trot out a load of pretentious and condescending drivel.[/quote]For once.

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I think Farke will have plenty of patience and I''m confident he will get us winning games sooner than later.
I expect to see Pinto, Nelson & Wes starting  tomorrow, would drop Watkins myself, I see  Toffolo is back playing for under 23''s so hope to see him on bench soon pushing Husband for his place.

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Looking at the Topic title...there it is in a nutshell,,,the one big main importance to the whole new era we are now embarking on with DF. The first bit will look after itself, DF knows what he wants, knows where he wants to head the club, he is here for a long term journey. Its the second part to the title..."as well as us."  I have already pointed this out in a couple of other places about how a few so called fans are already half given up with things after 1 week and 3 games in.Fans will need, i feel, patience and faith in a far bigger way than they showed under the Hughton and Alex Neil eras, but one thing is for sure, the club on mach days will need our utmost support, time and again, and its that which can make a huge difference in the long term.

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I''m having to mostly stay away from forums/anywhere you can talk about Norwich because this stupid, over reaction to us getting beat last weekend.

I''m proud top be associated with NCFC and I''m proud to be part of our fanbase but I feel we''re letting ourselves down at the moment and I feel it''s because we''re now getting a delayed reaction to our relegation a couple of seasons ago .

The damage was done when we wasted our money on Brady/Klose/Naismith/Jarvis/Mulumbu etc and now Webber/farke are paying the price because so many weren''t bothered and assumed we''d just bounce back or be rich from parachute payments. I was fuming at the time but got over it, feels like so many other are now having their blow out over it which is unfair on those at the club working to make us better in spite of our financial predicament.

I saw a young, at times naive and inexperienced but committed team give a decent performance at times against an experienced, recently relegated club in the first home game of the season that was met with a total over reaction in the aftermath and jeers/boo''s during/after the game because some idiots think football is still like it was in the 1980''s and all we have to do is lump crosses in as quickly as possible and if we play two ''strikers'' instead of one we''ll score more goals etc

We had basic football played the old fashioned way under Neil Adams and look how that turned out. Give the new guys more than 2 games to get this right ffs! This is a totally new style with a completely new team almost.

Think about that, 2 bloody games and we got boo''s at the final whistle, endless moaning after the game and people getting on the team''s back during the game, when we were playing well or trying to keep possession.

I want to see this project properly given time to start paying off, I''m worried the 442, get it forward, do somefing! morons are going to spoil it

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Hoola Han Solo wrote the following post at 15/08/2017 1:20 PM:

In Maniacal Bill''s defence, he didn''t trot out a load of pretentious and condescending drivel.

Do you really find it condescending Hoola ?

I love reading his analysis. I don''t find it in the least bit condescending.

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[quote user="rock bus"]In the aftermath of Sunday there have been lots of calls for wholesale changes to the side, formation and style of play.

Whilst I can appreciate people''s frustration with the result and more importantly performance, it will be essential that Farke remains strong. We can''t have a manager who keeps chopping and changing just in reaction to each result every week. Or one who is immediately susceptible to the moans of us fans.

He needs to allow the formation and style to bed in and become second nature to the players. Otherwise the whole turnaround in coaching staff and players will have been a waste of valuable time.

For me, I''d just look at straight swaps i.e. Oliveira for Jerome, pinto for wildschutt, and someone for Naismith.

Although if we had another option for left back I''d also drop Husband.[/quote]

Brilliant! You say no chopping and changing and then suggest the removal of four players?

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Well said Horse. I posted here after the home Southampton win in Jan. 2016, when we had 23 points at the time, exactly half way point of that season, and said we would  get relegated with a measly 33 points, which turned out 34, and commented that Summer ''17 window would be the time for a big change and overhaul at the club. And so it came to pass....but even bigger than i envisaged. Many fans are already trying the futile exercise of trying to predict the success or failure of this new season. For me, the biggest success has already happened and in just a few short months to. A near virtual wipe out from the club of the AN era, installing a new set up,  almost new team, and all at same time as the necessary downgrade  on the financial side.We may be in for some more  Saturdays like the Sunderland game, but i for one, will keep the faith, maintain my patience, and hope for a brighter future, OTBC.

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Fair comment Webbo and I appreciate that is true but I am still suggesting we stick with the same style, approach and mentality. I just feel some players may be able to carry it out better at this moment. I sense part of our new philosophy is having a style that suits the use of a range of players if some are struggling due to form, injury or just lack of confidence.

Indeed it''s a style that is supposed to resonate right through the club and from youth teams to the full team.

It''ll take time but at least it gives us a sense of cohesiveness and a way forward

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Farke told us we would see exciting football - so get the players fully fit and raring to go and then let them play as they know best.

I''m not sure that taking 13 passes to halfway counts as exciting, I counted them. What it is is pretty dull and also pretty easy to play against for any half organised side as Sunderland showed. When you add centre backs that don''t seem able to defend a long ball

First impressions aren''t exactly great are they.

Last season towards the end We looked half tidy truly I don''t think any restructuring was needed just a decent manager and competent centre back would have done.

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That''s right Mick, sides like Barca and Arsenal have never done anything playing this god awful, possession based, style of football have they...?I''m already utterly sick already of the massive over-reaction of many of our fans to the Sunderland result, the booing was beyond ridiculous, the hankering after ''old skool centre halves'', the return of 4-4-2 or any of the other $hite that''s been suggested is even more foolish, because it''s only been TWO F**KING LEAGUE GAMES FFS! TWO F**KING GAMES!!!!GET A GRIP FFS!!!!!!

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Teams like Barca and arsenal don''t play in the championship and have far superior players, you''re comparing apples and oranges

That said I don''t like watching Barcelona either I do find that style of football dull. I''ve always liked a faster paced game.

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@mickdundee

Agree 100%. Is not just a Norwich thing, but I just find the extreme levels of possession based footbalol unbelievably dull. Keep the ball yes, but when losing at home you surely have to mix it up. At 1-0 down we played with the pace and intensity of a team 3-0 up. Sunderland could have got the deckchairs out and took a breather Sunday. I felt we were almost too scared of losing the ball to try anything other than a short pass to feet

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"] I felt we were almost too scared of losing the ball to try anything other than a short pass to feet[/quote]

It is bound to be like that at first - possession is key to the strategy.  Once comfortable with learning to keep hold of the ball - and we have struggled with that for years - then the players will be able to be a bit braver with their creative passes.  It''s early days.  

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The message you are replying to: Re: Farke will need to show patience and faith as well as us

Rogue Baboon wrote the following post at 15/08/2017 8:58 PM:

@mickdundee

Agree 100%. Is not just a Norwich thing, but I just find the extreme levels of possession based footbalol unbelievably dull. Keep the ball yes, but when losing at home you surely have to mix it up. At 1-0 down we played with the pace and intensity of a team 3-0 up. Sunderland could have got the deckchairs out and took a breather Sunday. I felt we were almost too scared of losing the ball to try anything other than a short pass to feet

Don''t you think Farke feels the same about the way we progress forward and move the ball into dangerous areas. I know it''s been said over and over again but the principe is true, we are DEVELOPING a style of play, it will take time to come to fruition. Maybe more time than many are prepared to give, but that''s their problem.

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Agree, but also think it comes down to the choice of front man. Jerome isn''t the player to start playing neat, intricate stuff around the box. I think it would suit Oliveira much more, and he would link up the final 3rd much better bringing the others back into play

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