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Jim Smith

anyone have a feel for our net spend since January?

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Based on the fees reported for Brady, Olsson (both of which have been conveniently forgotten), Howson, Dorrans and Murphy we''ve sold players for fees adding up to circa £33m since January. In addition we''ve also obviously saved a lot in wages with the players we''ve released.

I think the only players we''ve paid a fee for are Wildshut, Husband, France and Vrancic? Appreciate there are also loan fees for Gunn and Dijks but surely there must be enough in the pot to fund at least one reasonable defensive purchase?

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Not sure there is much to be gained about knowing this?

It seems crystal clear to me that we have sold not to buy but to balance the books; So while we have a substantial transfer income the overall budget and expected lower income means its neutral.

I suspect that the Jacob deal means we have some surplus cash to spend if needed - but I doubt it is enormous.

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The point is really that I am genuinely surprised at how little we appear able to/prepared to spend given the importance to the club of getting back up in what is our last parachute payment season.

I''m trying to work out if this is out of necessity or the club is choosing to bank money as a buffer for the future. At the moment it feels a little like the latter.

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We made a loss of £8 million last year and since then our parachute payments have been cut by £12 million. That means we need to use £20 million of the £33 million you quote just to stand still. That is assuming that we have managed to cut our wage bill by £8 million to avoid accruing the same sized debt again this year.

On top of that we are likely to drop another £28 million of parachute money income IF we don''t go up this year.

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From Webber:

“Let’s say we got £20m this summer in transfer funds, for

argument’s sake. The chances are we see £5m or so of that this summer,

the same the following summer, and then the same the year after,” he

said. “That is how deals are staggered. What you mustn’t forget are

players we bought previously, like Yanic Wildschut, Nelson Oliveira,

Alex Pritchard, there will be money going out this year from us

regarding those deals. It is the hardest thing as a football fan to get

and I understand. They see us sell a player for £5m and expect we can go

and buy someone for the same amount.

“A lot of the

money goes to help us bridge the gap from less parachute money and help

bridge the gap to next summer and the potential expenditure. What it has

allowed us to do right now is go and bring in players, but the net

spend will be lower at the end of this current window.

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[quote user="ZLF"]Not sure there is much to be gained about knowing this?

It seems crystal clear to me that we have sold not to buy but to balance the books; So while we have a substantial transfer income the overall budget and expected lower income means its neutral.

I suspect that the Jacob deal means we have some surplus cash to spend if needed - but I doubt it is enormous.[/quote]I haven''t tried to do the sums (no least because until the accounts come out later this year we won''t have the figures for our summer spending). But I suspect the aim is not to balance the books but to be in the black, to help us through a forthcoming presumed season in the Championship without parachute payments.

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It was pointed out at the last AGM that if we didn''t go up at the first time of asking the financial repercussions would be huge come the end of the second season in the Champ. That is exactly what we''re seeing this window, a forward thinking balancing of the books. If we go up, great, if not, we could be stuck in this league for a long time with little to spend but at least we''ll have no massive debt.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="ZLF"]Not sure there is much to be gained about knowing this?

It seems crystal clear to me that we have sold not to buy but to balance the books; So while we have a substantial transfer income the overall budget and expected lower income means its neutral.

I suspect that the Jacob deal means we have some surplus cash to spend if needed - but I doubt it is enormous.[/quote]I haven''t tried to do the sums (no least because until the accounts come out later this year we won''t have the figures for our summer spending). But I suspect the aim is not to balance the books but to be in the black, to help us through a forthcoming presumed season in the Championship without parachute payments.[/quote]

That is my suspicion Purple - we are building up a buffer for next season and possibly beyond.

As for the cash flow point Nutty Webber is of course right but conveniently overlooks the fact that it presumably works the same way in terms of us paying for players we''ve bought unless we negotiated horrifically bad deals on some of our signings in recent years. I don''t believe we receive all transfer income in instalments yet pay for all purchases up front.

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When we went up last time we spent a pathetic amount to try and stay there. And it didn''t work. Having come down we gave it a bit of a go last year- but refused to invest in the obvious need for a better defence and, guess what, is cost us. This year, instead of having one last go the board have conceded ambition, sold to generate cash and opted to buy cheap and hope for the best. They anticipate a stint in the champ but, sadly, even that is now looking tough given the outside investment even in this league

So I return to what i have said for three years. Our board want to run the club on an outdated local model in a global era- and it means we are falling behind others at a rate of knots.

Why anyone thinks signing an unwanted third choice left back and unknown lower league Germans is going to work is beyond me. We are now looking at mid table at best imho. Next summer the rest of the family silver will be sold and we will be looking at struggle.

The point being that this board have not got the resources or imagination to move us forward. I have been saying it for ages as have others. They stepped in and were heroic and we owe them love and thanks - but they need to step aside now and let others come in. Not nepotism deals for nephew Tom and Ed Balls.

Since Bowkett left - so did the drive and ambition and I fear that, if the board remains, we will be a L1 club in three seasons but minus the messiah.

For the record I really like the cut of Farke''s jib- but he hasn''t been given the resources to do what he wants and the cracks are all too visible to see. A massive downgrade on last year and, though I didn''t think it possible, the defence actually looks worse. That doesnt bode well.

Yes it is early, yes we must give some time to the new lads. But their price tags and experience tell their own story. As did the goals against on Saturday. We are on shaky ground taking a massive risk. Chances of it paying off are less than even given the personnel coming in.

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I agree we have mainly sold to balance the books and also to significantly reduce the wage bill. If we spend a quarter of the transfer income since January we will be doing well. Our mismanagement in terms of poor signings and bonkers contracts has caught up with us and we are paying the price. We are not operating on a shoestring but I guess our transfer and wages budget is probably going to be the lowest since our championship season under Lambert

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Is it not already abundantly obvious that you''re skint? You''re paupers. You''ve sold all your best players and replaced them with cheap 4th tier Germans.

If you don''t go up this season (let''s be honest, it''s not likely) you''ll have another fire sale of your best players.

It''s been suggested by a few sources that if you fail to go up this season your budget for next season is likely to be less than Ipswich.

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[quote user="Sports Desk Pete"]From Webber:

“Let’s say we got £20m this summer in transfer funds, for

argument’s sake. The chances are we see £5m or so of that this summer,

the same the following summer, and then the same the year after,” he

said. “That is how deals are staggered. What you mustn’t forget are

players we bought previously, like Yanic Wildschut, Nelson Oliveira,

Alex Pritchard, there will be money going out this year from us

regarding those deals. It is the hardest thing as a football fan to get

and I understand. They see us sell a player for £5m and expect we can go

and buy someone for the same amount.[/quote]

Well unless NCFC are dumb, or Webber thinks supporters are even dumber, then surely it should be exactly the same situation when we buy someone.i.e. we don''t pay out the full amount in one go but dribble it out bit by bit.

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My thoughts exactly MP.

If we buy a player for £10m, then we should only have to be forking out £2.5m immediately......

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We''ve got McNally and Alex Neil to thank for the poor situation we are in. In the absence of promotion we will have to sell Naismith, Klose and Olivera within the next two windows.

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@makingplans

Exactly my thought whenever that line is trotted out. If we sell someone for £12m over four years it doesn''t mean we can only bid £3m on another player as we can also spread our payments out.

I''m also drawn to this quote by Alex Neil just before his sacking...

“We don’t need to move players on in terms of the finances,” he said. “We did a lot of good work in the January window in terms of recouping money so we have put the club in a financially sound position and I expect come the summer we will be in a stronger position in that regard than probably we have had of late. There is no pressure on me to sell players for financial reasons."

So despite him feeling in March we now didn''t need to sell for financial reasons, we''ve made around £20m in sales while also slashing the wage budgets with the players put of contract while reinvesting very little.

So was Neil talking bollocks?

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[quote user="king canary"]@makingplans

Exactly my thought whenever that line is trotted out. If we sell someone for £12m over four years it doesn''t mean we can only bid £3m on another player as we can also spread our payments out.

I''m also drawn to this quote by Alex Neil just before his sacking...

“We don’t need to move players on in terms of the finances,” he said. “We did a lot of good work in the January window in terms of recouping money so we have put the club in a financially sound position and I expect come the summer we will be in a stronger position in that regard than probably we have had of late. There is no pressure on me to sell players for financial reasons."

So despite him feeling in March we now didn''t need to sell for financial reasons, we''ve made around £20m in sales while also slashing the wage budgets with the players put of contract while reinvesting very little.

So was Neil talking bollocks?[/quote]
I think the club has a player budget for each season and the manager chooses what it''s spent on. However he can only spend what isn''t already spoken for. Many players are under contract from previous years and although the manager wouldn''t choose to he has to spend his budget on them. If we sell players or buy players that''s also included. If our income goes down or is due to go down that also has a huge bearing on the budget.The fees are usually undisclosed as are the terms so I have no idea how we could even guess what the financial situation is now. But it doesn''t end there. Stone and Webber have to have different plans for the future for the different scenarios we could face. I should imagine it''s a minefield. If we''re in the mix in January would you plan for the PL or a third season where the parachute payments end. Good luck to those guys. I''m happy calling bingo and cleaning bogs.[;)]
Kingo, could you help us on Rays Funds and make the final Norwich game selections for Birmingham  on 9th September? We''d love it if you could!

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It''s always so difficult to discuss finances because they seem blurred and hidden. What I do know is that having spent more years than not in the prem in the last few years then we have very little to show for it and never seemed to spend when we were there like other clubs who went up. Prudence always and little ambition and no external funding speaks to me of issues at board level as the club seems unable to compete with teams who have much smaller fan bases and much more localised competition. All seems very cosy at the top and they are never held to account

Five years - huge income that seems to vanish but still no CB worthy of the shirt

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[quote user="Dean Coneys boots"]It''s always so difficult to discuss finances because they seem blurred and hidden. What I do know is that having spent more years than not in the prem in the last few years then we have very little to show for it and never seemed to spend when we were there like other clubs who went up. Prudence always and little ambition and no external funding speaks to me of issues at board level as the club seems unable to compete with teams who have much smaller fan bases and much more localised competition. All seems very cosy at the top and they are never held to account

Five years - huge income that seems to vanish but still no CB worthy of the shirt[/quote]What are you doing each year when the accounts are published? The copy I get isn''t at all blurred or hidden and the years we were in the Premier League didn''t show massive surplusses so the money must have been spent.I don''t get to see the accounts of other clubs so I can''t compare but I''d be interested to know how you do know about them when you don''t know about our spend.

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@kingcanary

I was looking for that quote the other day as could remember him saying that after we sold Olsson. Where is it from please?

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[quote user="king canary"]@nutty

More than happy to- can you drop me a PM so I know what and when you need me to do?[/quote]
Fantastic!!! I''ll send you a pm over the next couple days [Y]

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[quote user="king canary"]@nutty

More than happy to- can you drop me a PM so I know what and when you need me to do?[/quote]
Fantastic!!! I''ll send you a pm over the next couple days [Y]

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