Barnsley takeover

[Rogue Baboon 0]

I agree, but let''s not pretend it''s equal.

I would suggest lack of money is much more of a cause then too much money.

Money isn''t everything, but it can make life easier - and that''s the situation this club is in. We are having to cut back on the playing staff massively, reducing the overall quality.

Let''s not pretend more money wouldn''t help us...

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I don''t think anyone is pretending more money wouldnt help us. I dont think the owners pretend more money wouldnt help us. But as tumbleweed pointed out it''s not the only consideration for being custodians of our club. Further than that for me personally it''s not even the primary consideration and I wonder if more people might agree with me if they had the responsibility of being custodians of our club.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

Genuine question that I have asked in a few other places to a few other posters, and also posted on this thread earlier...

Would you accept lower end Championship or top end League One if it meant that the club was left in ''good hands''?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Depends what is considered "good hands".

But on a wider but very relevant point i wouldn''t exchange our last ten years for Sunderlands.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

Ok for clarity, I classed ''good hands'' as this current succession we have - Delia/MWJ handing down to Tom. Almost a status quo with no extra investment but owners with clubs interests at heart.

But we now cannot look at the last 10 years, we have to look at the next 2 to 5 years from a NCFC point of view when compared to the rest of the league

[king canary 7,603]

Money shouldn''t be the only consideration nutty but our current succession plan seems to suggest that the main consideration is ''am I related to you?''

[Crafty Canary 495]

nutty in gel wrote the following post at 22/08/2017 11:58 AM:

Depends what is considered "good hands".

But on a wider but very relevant point i wouldn''t exchange our last ten years for Sunderlands.

Really Nutty? From 2007/8 to 2016/17 Sunderland were in the Premier League with finishing positions between 10th and 18th averaging 15th.

Over the same period we had 4 seasons in the Premiership, 5 in the Championship and 1 in League 1.

Admittedly we will have enjoyed more highs in terms of promotion but also more relegation so. Money wise Sunderland will certainly have earned more.

[king canary 7,603]

@rogue

I''d say the only way that situation is reasonable to me is if the club was owned by some form of fans collective in the style of Portsmouth or even Swansea up until recently.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

Which, correct me if I am wrong, have now found their way to outside investment and were not permanent solutions?

(may be wide of the mark there, but havent Pompey recently been taken over by an ex-Walt Disney exec after being driven to the edge by previous owners?)

[king canary 7,603]

@crafty

I actually agree with nutty on this one. In my mind stagnation is the worst thing that can happen as a football fan. To use a trite phrase ''it''s about the journey, not the destination.'' I''d rather have sunk lower and risen higher than just stayed in one place.

Sunderland did at least have a couple of miracle escapes from relegation to enioy- I imagine being a West Bromwich or Stoke fan must be even duller.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

@King

I agree - but my fear is we are now heading to that stagnation. A more appropriate example would be Ipswich who are the most stagnant team certainly in this league & probably the whole Football League.

I fear the last 10 years may have been our time to enjoy the ride, now we are heading for a period similar to 96-03 where we may have the odd season where we do slightly better or slightly worse, but overall hold our position. the difference between now & then is it is much harder to get out of now

[king canary 7,603]

You''re probably right Rogue. I''ve learnt over time it''s best to just take each game one at a time- too much thinking about the bigger picture in football just becomes depressing.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Crafty, that''s because you''re values are based on wealth and perceived status where as mine are based on the enjoyment and involvement with the Norfolk community.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="king canary"]@rogue

I''d say the only way that situation is reasonable to me is if the club was owned by some form of fans collective in the style of Portsmouth or even Swansea up until recently.[/quote]Lovely idea but it rarely works in practice, Notts County, Portsmouth and Ebbsfleet are perfect examples. Fans are happy to dip into their pockets to save their club from extinction but less keen do do it as an ongoing commitment.Swansea fans only ever had 21% of the shares.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

Rushden and Diamonds were run by a Supporters Trust and they no longer exist  !

[westcoastcanary 173]

Brentford are another example of a club whose supporter-owners (the Bees Trust were the majority shareholders) preferred to sell their "birthright" for a mess of pottage -- in the shape of Matthew Benham''s wealth and the anticipation of a rosier future. Benham of course is himself a Bees supporter with the interests of the club at heart. 

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]Brentford are another example of a club whose supporter-owners (the Bees Trust were the majority shareholders) preferred to sell their "birthright" for a mess of pottage -- in the shape of Matthew Benham''s wealth and the anticipation of a rosier future. Benham of course is himself a Bees supporter with the interests of the club at heart. [/quote] I wonder if the Brentford supporter-owners put some kind of clause in that meant they can buy the club back if Bentham wants to sell again.  But they are lucky, they have found a wealthy supporter.  We, historically find that very difficult to get.  How wealthy is Stephen Fry, I wonder.......

[simmo_2 6]

[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]For every Leicester there is a Portsmouth

For every Blackburn there is a Bournemouth

There is no guarantees, and as already pointed out there are 10+ clubs in the Championship with owners who expect promotion, yet only 3 promotion places.

That doesn''t mean I think we don''t need investment though - each year it will get harder & harder to compete in the Championship. Would be interesting to hear where the board sees us in 5 years time and what the targets are[/quote]

Was it really that bad what happened at Pompey, I would have a FA Cup win and a few years trouble to just meandering along like the binners for instance. They are now back on a upward curve with new investment and will probably be back in premiership in 3/4 years.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

With regard to finding a wealthy supporter Lakey have we ever really looked for one ? As for Stephen Fry you get to more games than he does !

[simmo_2 6]

[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Money isn''t everything, but financial worries is almost certainly one of the biggest causes of depression & worse.

I posted a direct response to LDC on another thread, but will post similar here...

Would you accept lower end Championship or top end League One if it meant that the club was left in ''good hands''

It may seem extreme, but more & more Championship teams have investment & the terms coming down are getting more & more in terms of parachute payments. Coupled with our current & imminent financial issues (selling players, investing in unknowns/young players & imminent end of parachute payments) I just cannot see playoffs as a realistic target after this season[/quote]

Great post if only more people would realise what''s happening to our club.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="simmo_2"][quote user="Rogue Baboon"]For every Leicester there is a Portsmouth

For every Blackburn there is a Bournemouth

There is no guarantees, and as already pointed out there are 10+ clubs in the Championship with owners who expect promotion, yet only 3 promotion places.

That doesn''t mean I think we don''t need investment though - each year it will get harder & harder to compete in the Championship. Would be interesting to hear where the board sees us in 5 years time and what the targets are[/quote]

Was it really that bad what happened at Pompey, I would have a FA Cup win and a few years trouble to just meandering along like the binners for instance. They are now back on a upward curve with new investment and will probably be back in premiership in 3/4 years.[/quote]

This is a very good question. Clubs of our sort of size don''t really go out of business. the worst that seems to happen (to date anyway) is a few years of problems and then they get bought out by someone who can see the potential in clubs with our level of support.

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="westcoastcanary"]Brentford are another example of a club whose supporter-owners (the Bees Trust were the majority shareholders) preferred to sell their "birthright" for a mess of pottage -- in the shape of Matthew Benham''s wealth and the anticipation of a rosier future. Benham of course is himself a Bees supporter with the interests of the club at heart. [/quote] I wonder if the Brentford supporter-owners put some kind of clause in that meant they can buy the club back if Bentham wants to sell again.  But they are lucky, they have found a wealthy supporter.  We, historically find that very difficult to get.  How wealthy is Stephen Fry, I wonder.......

[/quote]There was some such a clause I believe in the original agreement drawn up when Benham first put money in in return for a substantial, but not majority, shareholding. I think it gave the Bees Trust the option to buy him out after 5 years or to sell their own majority shareholding to him. In the event, at the end of the five years, they voted to sell. I''m not aware of any option to buy should he now decide to sell.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="simmo_2"][quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Money isn''t everything, but financial worries is almost certainly one of the biggest causes of depression & worse.

I posted a direct response to LDC on another thread, but will post similar here...

Would you accept lower end Championship or top end League One if it meant that the club was left in ''good hands''

It may seem extreme, but more & more Championship teams have investment & the terms coming down are getting more & more in terms of parachute payments. Coupled with our current & imminent financial issues (selling players, investing in unknowns/young players & imminent end of parachute payments) I just cannot see playoffs as a realistic target after this season[/quote]

Great post if only more people would realise what''s happening to our club.[/quote]

I disagree strongly. The numbers don''t stack up. The more clubs that have lots of money, the less very good players there will be to go round, so more mediocre players will command huge fees.....and the difference between those that have lots of money and those that have less, will see less differential in the standard of players.  It is bound to happen, rich clubs will spend more money,  for less quality. It is happening already and it will allow the more frugal well run clubs to compete with the rich clubs, using strategies of youth development and clever use of loans and young players.  And the more clubs that sell out to investors, the less they will be able to get for their money. Well run clubs the size of ours, will always be able to compete if they are clever and creative with getting young players in.  Better to be clever and not sell out, than sell to a speculator, spend millions upon millions on players that we all think are not really worth it and still see us struggle because we are competing with so many other clubs who have money.   We will eventually arrive at a situation where nearly all the clubs in the championship have millions to spend. Well only three clubs get promoted, so if we sold out, we would be spending millions and be no better off for it.  People speak about the bubble bursting in terms of the money that pours into clubs from investors. Well it will eventually happen - it is bound to - the more clubs that are rich, the less success their money will give them - and the investors will sooner or later, lose interest.  The only clubs that will keep their investors interested when they realise they can''t win, are those that have investors who are supporters too (like Bentham at Brentford).  We are lucky. We are protected and will not suffer like some of the richer clubs will when that bubble bursts - because our club will be sustainable AND still have supporters as owners.

[Crafty Canary 495]

Nutty Nigel wrote the following post at 22/08/2017 1:00 PM:

Crafty, that''s because you''re values are based on wealth and perceived status where as mine are based on the enjoyment and involvement with the Norfolk community.

Not really Nutty. Football values are largely based on wealth and status, not mine. Yes I''d prefer being well off to being poor but I value health and personal happiness much higher. Money doesn''t buy happiness but does allow you to be miserable in comfort. Equally status is a subjective concept. How I perceive myself matters to me. How others view me matters much less although being viewed as a decent bloke is nicer than being viewed otherwise. In any case anyone who views me in a poor light probably doesn''t have an opinion I''d value. 😊

If enjoyment and community involvement are the criteria most important to you then you will be happy in the Evostick League and explains why you are a happy clapper. That''s not a criticism by the way. Whatever rocks your boat is good.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Crafty Canary"]Nutty Nigel wrote the following post at 22/08/2017 1:00 PM:

Crafty, that''s because you''re values are based on wealth and perceived status where as mine are based on the enjoyment and involvement with the Norfolk community.

Not really Nutty. Football values are largely based on wealth and status, not mine. Yes I''d prefer being well off to being poor but I value health and personal happiness much higher. Money doesn''t buy happiness but does allow you to be miserable in comfort. Equally status is a subjective concept. How I perceive myself matters to me. How others view me matters much less although being viewed as a decent bloke is nicer than being viewed otherwise. In any case anyone who views me in a poor light probably doesn''t have an opinion I''d value. 😊

If enjoyment and community involvement are the criteria most important to you then you will be happy in the Evostick League and explains why you are a happy clapper. That''s not a criticism by the way. Whatever rocks your boat is good.[/quote]I am intrigued. How does that professed  lack of concern for your public image tie in with those frequent posts boasting of your academic and professional qualifications? Especially since they were used to denigrate posters with supposedly lesser achievements to speak of?

[nutty nigel 7,528]

At no point did I say my values were better than yours Crafty, just different. And at no point did I say I''d be happy in the Evostick league and it''s plain daft to say that. 

I don''t agree with this money allowing people to be miserable in comfort either. That''s a myth. Anyway, nobody has said money is bad. Money can be good and be used to do good. However the love and pursuit of money is very often a fast track to misery. The pressures in the society we live convince people that they continually need things and should get into debt to get them. The enjoyment of having those things is very short lived however the resultant debt and poverty is a huge cause of depression and unhappiness.

A supporter of your experience should know that the last ten years have been a very enjoyable period to be a Norwich fan. Much more enjoyable than the years when we cut our teeth Crafty. And there''s nothing to suggest the next ten won''t be just as enjoyable. Except those pressures about money convincing people they would be happier if our club had more of it. I just read on another thread that administration would be fine, anything''s worth the risk of attaining more money. And this money will not benefit any of our fans. It will not guarantee success on the field and it will not mean tickets for fans will be cheaper. It just means that more money could be paid to already obscenely overpaid players. And just say the money moved us to the PL for 4 or 5 seasons the same pressures would be brought to bear. We would need more and more as we clamour for some status that doesn''t really exist.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Makes absolutely no difference if the owners are supporters or not.

[TIL 1010 4,737]

[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Makes absolutely no difference if the owners are supporters or not.[/quote]Try telling that to Delia & MWJ as i thought that was a must when asked about their vision for Norwich ?

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

sometimes being a supporter gets in the way of ambition

[Herman 9,754]

[quote user="simmo_2"][quote user="Rogue Baboon"]For every Leicester there is a Portsmouth

For every Blackburn there is a Bournemouth

There is no guarantees, and as already pointed out there are 10+ clubs in the Championship with owners who expect promotion, yet only 3 promotion places.

That doesn''t mean I think we don''t need investment though - each year it will get harder & harder to compete in the Championship. Would be interesting to hear where the board sees us in 5 years time and what the targets are[/quote] Was it really that bad what happened at Pompey, I would have a FA Cup win and a few years trouble to just meandering along like the binners for instance. They are now back on a upward curve with new investment and will probably be back in premiership in 3/4 years.[/quote]

Yes it was. And no you wouldn''t.