Parma's Tactics Masterclass 16

[Ray 111]

Maniacal Bill,

Perhaps it could be called build up play, does that help? So the initial passer sets the style of play/attack, although I tend to agree, this should be fluid with all brains engaged to counter the opposition movement.

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Crabbycanary3"]Football is a simple game.

Can just imagine certain footballers, sat there, in a dressing room, whilst their Manager comes out with this analysis, and coaching tactics................[/quote]English football''s problem in one sentence [:D]

[STFU 0]

Wind up or not, I''m not surprised that you don''t understand it when this is your analysis:

jeez

you really are that thick

it was a ball played to Olivera who ran into the box - it was not played into the box per se

we are not playing the ball into the box for a forward to (hopefully) get onto it

the ball is played to whoever has lost his marker, with the idea of shooting straight away

that you can''t see the difference comes as no surprise

[Badger 2,405]

Thanks Parma - thought provoking as ever.One thing that initially came to mind was to what extent do you feel that we ought to adopt different shapes and personnel for home and away games? We know that at home sides are likely to sit back, defend deep and be hard to break down and try to live off scraps (breaks/ dead balls etc) for attacking intent. Does this not require a different type of approach? It would seem to me that Hoolahan / Oliveira''s greater craft and imagination might be in greater demand at home and the hard running high energy of Jerome and Watkins away to harry and press. To put it metaphorically, at home we are more likely to have to "pick the lock" whereas with teams having greater attacking intent against us at homes, at times they might leave the door open.

[Van wink 2,994]

hogesar wrote the following post at 14/08/2017 11:35 AM:

I''m with LDC.

It seems City 1st lashes out at any post he doesn''t understand.

Thus he lashes out at most posts.

👍 A gauche buffoon.

[Diane 500]

[quote user="City1st"]Of course it''s all a wind up[/quote]

There''s nothing about Parma that''s a windup, perhaps you should meet him as some of us have done, but guess you won''t be meeting anyone on here any day soon will you City 1st ?

[wooster 134]

Parma,

Thanks as ever for the insight and the elegant delivery.

I went yesterday and your optimism is very reassuring.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the OP and understood and enjoyed all of the imagery used to explain the tactics.

It is a combination of technical explanation and creative expression the like of which I have not seen from any other poster.

But it clearly exposes posters who:

Have short attention spans (a product of the iphone era).

Have probably never read a book.

Read tabloid papers.

Need spoon feeding.

Or, are simply and plainly thick.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

I''ve been fortunate enough to watch a couple of matches sitting next to Parma and I can assure everyone he is the genuine. Those who say otherwise surely must fit into one of Rudolph''s categories. But then I fit into Cat. 5 but am not exposed by Parma''s posts...

Anyway, I''m more knowledgeable for having watched games in his company. I certainly see Steven Naismith in a different light and can now appreciate the runs he makes and the positions he takes up when others have the ball.

Thanks for this latest post Parma. I enjoyed it and don''t really have the understanding to add to it except to say another quality of Reed is that he times his jumps so well that he wins balls in the air I wouldn''t expect him to. He could be a huge player for us this season. Oh and thanks for the Rays Funds hope to see you on Wednesday[Y]

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Can someone (Parma?) please give me a critique on Josh Murphy?

[hogesar 9,670]

Nutty, i agree in regards to Reed (and the rest of your post actually), my next question is what possibility do we have of keeping him? Do we know if Southampton see him as someome they can let go permanently...if so we need to strike a deal ASAP as i can only see his price going upwards from here.

[The Bristol Nest 513]

Isn''t the new German fellow a back for Reed?

[Rock The Boat 1,331]

Parma Ham wrote this "There is often a notable difference between what is intended and what is produced, so our current vision is limited to the major themes and how they should work. "

Well that''s the nub of the problem Parma. The major themes simply won''t work at this level.

I can understand this stuff working in Italy where they have been doing it for years, and it probably can work at the very top of the Premier League where savvy players and imports who know these major themes inside out. But at the level that NCFC and similar teams play, this is simply not going to work.

Your methods require great technical skill and awareness in order to work. The players at our level simply do not have that technical skill or savvyness to play in the way that you describe. One mistake, one missplaced pass in a high-pressing game leaves you terribly exposed to swift counter-attack or a long ball for a striker to run on to. A possession game sounds great but it allows the opposition to set up defence. In those situations you need a Messi or a Costa to break open those packed and well-drilled defences. Players at our level can never be good enough to acheive that breakdown and our opposition will be happy to do what Suderland did and wait for us to make a mistake, and then go direct.

That you laud Reed for making a tactical foul tells us where this is going. Dull, unadventourous Italian style football where tactics plus cycnical play is everything. It is ugly to watch and is worse than Hughton''s park the bus style of play.

Parma quote " Not only did Reed produce a highly professional foul, from the other side of the referee - making no attempt to play the ball - he recognised quickly when and why it was necessary. I cannot stress how crucial this skill is, we have spent 18 months not doing it - and worse - not being mentally aware of when it would have been necessary."

Sorry Parma, but if we are going to a football match to applaud the professional foul as a crucual skill, then that is not football as I know it.

Of course Norwich lacked the ''Carrick pass''. We can''t afford it. And the rest of your post is a Christmas wishlist of the kid who doesn''t realise that his Mum and Dad doesn''t have the cash to match his daydreaming.

Teams will beat us because they have a more solid defence than us (on another thread someone mentions Michael Nelson as the kind of player who gets his head in where it hurts - imagine him in the Farke system!), a midfield that moves the ball swiftly through the channels and strikers who are happy to attack the ball (as opposed to attacking the man) - whether its through the channels or getting on the end of crosses. Already we have been undone by these simple, effective, British tactics (think Grant Holt, ex-tyre fitter) and unless we get those pansies off the bl**dy carousel, this season we''re going to get hammered.

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

As much as I enjoyed Parma''s OP I have to say this post by Rock the Boat is equally as valid. Good debate and within it is the story of our season to be told.

[Number9 272]

An example of this is Man C v Brighton. It took the ridiculously skillful Man C players quite some time to unlock the Brighton defence.

We face a similar problem without the vastly expensive players.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Rocky, I don''t get this Michael Nelson stuff. I really don''t. Michael Nelson had one good season for us in League One where he had a good partnership with Gary Doherty who was the better of the two. I heard this mentioned on canary call too and that piece of revisionism didn''t mention the Doc but did Zak Whitbread. Oh how the passage of time seems to be able to rewrite the careers of our former players. Michael Nelson played 45 games for Norwich and just 8 of those in the Champs. Back in 2010 Nelson was not deemed good enough to play for a team that wanted to consolidate in the Champs let alone get promoted from it. The Admiral was a great fans favourite for us who played his part in that League One season but that''s as far as it goes. He is not an example of a player that we need right now. In fact in our much more recent past Martin and Bassong were good enough to get us promoted from the champs and yet they''re used as examples of centre halfs not good enough for us now. Go figure...

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="Diane"][quote user="City1st"]Of course it''s all a wind up[/quote]

There''s nothing about Parma that''s a windup, perhaps you should meet him as some of us have done, but guess you won''t be meeting anyone on here any day soon will you City 1st ?

[/quote]I also have had the pleasure of being introduced to Parma at Carrow Road and yes you are right Diane about meeting City1st because as i have said before he never goes to a game.

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="FenwayFrank"]I seem to have mis interpreted the post , early morning 😀[/quote]Calmed down enough for you on my forum has it FF ? Oh and before you go off on one i got an e-mail last night on my phone while out with ''Er Indoors about your stupid little point scoring exercise on Tumbleweed.Com

[westcoastcanary 173]

@Rock the Boat

"I can understand this stuff working in Italy where they have been doing it for years, and it probably can work at the very top of the Premier League where savvy players and imports who know these major themes inside out. But at the level that NCFC and similar teams play, this is simply not going to work." 

Did last season''s Huddersfield not play at the level of NCFC and similar teams? Or did they play in a way markedly different from what Farke is trying to introduce? Or maybe the 17 home country players in their promoted squad were just make-weights while the foreign imports did the business by themselves? 

[hogesar 9,670]

I think you need to let it go Til mate.

[Rock The Boat 1,331]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Rocky, I don''t get this Michael Nelson stuff. I really don''t. Michael Nelson had one good season for us in League One where he had a good partnership with Gary Doherty who was the better of the two. I heard this mentioned on canary call too and that piece of revisionism didn''t mention the Doc but did Zak Whitbread. Oh how the passage of time seems to be able to rewrite the careers of our former players. Michael Nelson played 45 games for Norwich and just 8 of those in the Champs. Back in 2010 Nelson was not deemed good enough to play for a team that wanted to consolidate in the Champs let alone get promoted from it. The Admiral was a great fans favourite for us who played his part in that League One season but that''s as far as it goes. He is not an example of a player that we need right now. In fact in our much more recent past Martin and Bassong were good enough to get us promoted from the champs and yet they''re used as examples of centre halfs not good enough for us now. Go figure...[/quote]Howdy Nutty. Firstly I want to say that I enjoy reading Parma immensely, both for the content and the style, and as a professional he knows way more than I ever will about football and tactics. That''s a given.Secondly, the point about Michael Nelson was an illustration of the type of player that is very well suited to the Championship style of football. I didn''t want to compare his record against other players, many of whom were better, but to give an example that in order to win headers put into the box a defender has to get to the ball first, and that sometimes means getting hurt in the process. Now we have a CB on our books, Timm Klose who stated that the arial bombardment and roughing up style of big centre forwards came as something of an unpleasant surprise to him. To my thinking it has to be a basic tenet of defending, perhaps to all positions, that you have to get to the ball first. In defending you can get away with blocking or defending but a much better solution is to be first to the ball so that you can do something with it. So while it is a bonus that you have defenders who can play the ball out (Martin), or can overlap down the wing (Pinto), defenders have to get the basics of defending right before moving on to the clever stuff.So this is why I have doubts about Parmas ideas because I think there is an over-reliance on the system to the detriment of getting the basics right. We haven''t got the defending basics right for over two seasons now and we''re still leaking goals from basic defending mistakes. Fulham, Swindon and now Sunderland have all shown us what happens when you rely on the system and forget the basics - shut up shop at the back, get the ball forward quickly (not slowly, for heavens sake) and attack the penalty area with strength.

[Rock The Boat 1,331]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]@Rock the Boat

"I can understand this stuff working in Italy where they have been doing it for years, and it probably can work at the very top of the Premier League where savvy players and imports who know these major themes inside out. But at the level that NCFC and similar teams play, this is simply not going to work." 

Did last season''s Huddersfield not play at the level of NCFC and similar teams? Or did they play in a way markedly different from what Farke is trying to introduce? Or maybe the 17 home country players in their promoted squad were just make-weights while the foreign imports did the business by themselves? 

[/quote]It didn''t work for Hddersfield in their first season of Wagner. And when Huddersfield played us last season I remember they were moving the ball around much faster than we have done this season.But this does illustrate a point about football. It has to be played at pace. It''s why footballers are trained to pak fitness these days. I''m not suggesting hoofball, but success can be derived from quickly exploiting space. Leicester did this so successfully when they won the Premier League. Ferguson''s Man Utd teams were always very quick in the front line and with a fair few cloggers at the back.

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="hogesar"]I think you need to let it go Til mate.[/quote]Hoggy i suggest you have a word with your mate on Tumbleweed.Com with the snide little jibes at both the Pink Un and me.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="Rock The Boat"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Rocky, I don''t get this Michael Nelson stuff. I really don''t. Michael Nelson had one good season for us in League One where he had a good partnership with Gary Doherty who was the better of the two. I heard this mentioned on canary call too and that piece of revisionism didn''t mention the Doc but did Zak Whitbread. Oh how the passage of time seems to be able to rewrite the careers of our former players. Michael Nelson played 45 games for Norwich and just 8 of those in the Champs. Back in 2010 Nelson was not deemed good enough to play for a team that wanted to consolidate in the Champs let alone get promoted from it. The Admiral was a great fans favourite for us who played his part in that League One season but that''s as far as it goes. He is not an example of a player that we need right now. In fact in our much more recent past Martin and Bassong were good enough to get us promoted from the champs and yet they''re used as examples of centre halfs not good enough for us now. Go figure...[/quote]Howdy Nutty. Firstly I want to say that I enjoy reading Parma immensely, both for the content and the style, and as a professional he knows way more than I ever will about football and tactics. That''s a given.Secondly, the point about Michael Nelson was an illustration of the type of player that is very well suited to the Championship style of football. I didn''t want to compare his record against other players, many of whom were better, but to give an example that in order to win headers put into the box a defender has to get to the ball first, and that sometimes means getting hurt in the process. Now we have a CB on our books, Timm Klose who stated that the arial bombardment and roughing up style of big centre forwards came as something of an unpleasant surprise to him. To my thinking it has to be a basic tenet of defending, perhaps to all positions, that you have to get to the ball first. In defending you can get away with blocking or defending but a much better solution is to be first to the ball so that you can do something with it. So while it is a bonus that you have defenders who can play the ball out (Martin), or can overlap down the wing (Pinto), defenders have to get the basics of defending right before moving on to the clever stuff.So this is why I have doubts about Parmas ideas because I think there is an over-reliance on the system to the detriment of getting the basics right. We haven''t got the defending basics right for over two seasons now and we''re still leaking goals from basic defending mistakes. Fulham, Swindon and now Sunderland have all shown us what happens when you rely on the system and forget the basics - shut up shop at the back, get the ball forward quickly (not slowly, for heavens sake) and attack the penalty area with strength.[/quote]

Sorry Rocky. I got sidetracked on the individual players but the wider point still applies to my opinion. We ditched the Michael Nelson type for the Elliott Ward type. Russell Martin I would say is an Elliott Ward type. Russell Martin wasn''t only our best centre half last time we were promoted but also voted as one of the best two centre halfs in the Championship by his peers. I don''t think the Michael Nelson type is in any way what we need now.

However the criticism after yesterday seems to be about basic defending and that should be a given in any type of centre halfs. In this respect blaming the type of centre half is like British Rail hiding behind different types of snow[;)]

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

Someone needs to chill out a bit. 😀

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Ian Holloway will undoubtedly be working on set-pieces for the game on Wednesday and specifically on putting crosses into our box.

He will also be looking at sitting deep and letting Norwich have the ball as much as they like in front of their packed defence.

This season might come down to our German boys learning to put their heads in where it hurts. In reality it is more likely to hurt if you go in half-hearted; it needs to be fully committed and in this they will be on the steepest of learning curves.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="FenwayFrank"]I seem to have mis interpreted the post , early morning 😀[/quote]Calmed down enough for you on my forum has it FF ? Oh and before you go off on one i got an e-mail last night on my phone while out with ''Er Indoors about your stupid little point scoring exercise on Tumbleweed.Com[/quote]Which rather suggests the problem here lies with you TilsonThat someone would send you an email about something on this forum tells you much about both of you, For a retired police officer you seem to take a football forum extremely seriously, and personal/I cannot imagine there are many who are that bothered once they have logged off - or are in contact with those who would think they they are that bothered either.Whatever squabbles you have with others you consistently drag on to here - as if this forum is the fiefdom of a select few. I know little else about you (beyond a couple of messages that suggest you are not so well loved as you preceive) and have no wish to know more. Not over any disagreement on here, though the Monty Python clip would be ample reason not to - but simply that this is a football forum.That we support the same club does not mean anything beyond that as far as I am oncerned.Continue with your accusations that I don''t attend games and your not too bright friend who can''t quite grasp the absurd position of being able to prove a negative.As to whether Parma exists or not,that is neither here nor there, my comments were aimed at his/her post. That''s all. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

An excellent post Rock The Boat. As Rudolph says your premise is entirely valid and there is an argument as to whether an inherent philosophy and approach can amortise the difference between higher paid and/or higher quality players and lower-cost-but-better-trained players operating to a finer style.

The point of the Masterclasses is to empirically identify and highlight key aspects of what we see, to evaluate and suggest the motives of the coaching team, to note potential disparities between what is intended and what is produced. The difference between objectively analysing performance against -the sometimes crude and ''inaccurate'' measure of result alone.

Fans and invested followers typically retrospectively judge the former via the hindsight prism of the latter.

This is not to be confused with what I think, would do or my own coaching beliefs and approaches. I rarely offer an opinion and state it clearly if I do. The editorial is for others to add (or request) as they desire.

In my view your contention is entirely valid and in many ways the key question. Can you really do better with less? An philosophy and methodology outperform on-paper resource quality?

The Carrick pass is indeed a rare gem of a gift, Reed is indeed the only natural CDM (caveat Trybull or possible reinvention of Naismith), the system relies on the role per se and if he is suspended or injured I am entirely unconvinced we have suitable replacements.

The midfield Carousel elegantly moves the opposition out of shape - for a time - but then some form of penetration must exploit the overload - briefly - created. Hard-running, honest pigeon-chasers may effect a high press well, but goals need to be scored and lower level players logically make more unforced errors as you contend.

I would do much of what we are beginning to see now, though as a former striker, I would always be looking for the tip of the sword striker chance to be the objective and result of the previous elegant play. This requires the next step of chance creation from possession (and indeed the pre-step of midfield ball to chance creator).

You can certainly create the players to operate within the methodology if you begin with them young enough. Our future may well be as a good breeding ground for the Man City''s, Spurs, Swansea''s or even (the latest Huddersfield). This is a long term project borne out of necessity as much as Design.

Parma

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

As for Socratic method, it is the process of asking open questions to individuals and them revealing answers to themselves, encouraging self-awareness mindfully without judgment or didactic leading of the subject. It is much loved of Psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists.

It would have been far-simpler to have waited a few more games to allow for a more clearly-focused camera lens, though as the dramatic and fundamental change is unfolding ''live'' in front of us all, we all have an equal opportunity to create our own Masterclass version of what we see gradually forming in front of us. We are going on an uncharted educational journey, making ''live'' analysis a movable, malleable feast. All questions are valid and no answers are likely to be definitive yet, which is stimulating, intriguing and insecure in equal measure.

Parma

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="Maniacal Bill"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="FenwayFrank"]I seem to have mis interpreted the post , early morning 😀[/quote]Calmed down enough for you on my forum has it FF ? Oh and before you go off on one i got an e-mail last night on my phone while out with ''Er Indoors about your stupid little point scoring exercise on Tumbleweed.Com[/quote]Which rather suggests the problem here lies with you TilsonThat someone would send you an email about something on this forum tells you much about both of you,  [/quote]Sorry to point out that you have got entirely the wrong end of the stick City1st as it was not this forum that i was referring to in my post to FF and to think you run around saying people are not bright. Some people post about the PinkUn and its posters elsewhere you know.As for the accusation as you put it that you do not attend games i will stick with my view that you do not if that is alright with you.That is all.