Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Michael Bates

Jerome allowed to leave

Recommended Posts

Unless he gets sold, which I hope not, Oliveira will be first choice striker next season no question. If he stays injury and suspension free, then his record last season suggests he''ll score over 20 goals this coming season should he start most league games. I don''t want to see Jerome or Howson go, BUT, if they do, we must get a decent fee for them as this is our pot to reinforce with - reduce the wage bill seems to be everybodies thing but we still need as much cash as possible to bring in new players as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i agree Alex Oliveira for me is a better striker and could well be 20 goals but will he be fit for a season ? that''s my doubt

Or even will he fit Farke style ? which to be fair we know little about as never seen his team play 90 mins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Staying fit is the big question, Norfolkngood, agreed. So it goes without saying we''ll need one or two more depending what happens with Cam, I would imagine DF will already know what strikers he''s looking at and probably fair to say they''re currently plying their trade in the German whateverdivision. If we keep Jerome then add one more, then great - he might need several chances to score but one of his best attributes is how tirelessly he works, a great athlete, and so therefore he creates himself quite a lot of chances to nick a goal despite being not particularly clinical on shot/goal ratio. I would like to see him stay but all I will say is it''s out of us fan''s hands and so if he is to be sold we should be demanding good money. As for Carlton Morris, I don''t want to write off one of our own, but I would think that if he was going to make it in the Championship or even higher then he''d really be banging the goals in with real consistency by now (during his loan exploits) - it is a shame but my gut feeling is that he won''t make it at Carrow Rd sadly, however, I would be delighted if he did!.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, no, no. And no. Unless we get well over £10 million, and even then I still believe it would be a net loss to us. When you look at what McCormack, Rhodes etc were sold for last year, given that Cam contributes much more to the team as a whole than either of them, he has to be more valuable to us.

Who remembers the last summer transfer window? Most of this board was panicking about our striking options and we ended up one of the highest scoring teams in the league. We''re well set up up front so let''s not jeopardise that. People who say "if we can replace him with a younger, cheaper alternative who can score 20 goals a season, then let him go" - what are you smoking? If such a player did exist, most of the Championship and probably half he Prem would be all over him. Decent strikers who perform well consistently are rare, hence the sums involved we saw last season.

CJ is one of the hardest working players in the squad, experienced and would be an excellent mentor for the younger players we are likely to be blooding next season. We need players like him as well as up and coming talent. Selling him would be crazy unless we get a huge fee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It''s no coincidence to me that rumours like this and Howson have come after Naismiths ''excited for next season'' interview. I think they were hoping the persuade him to leave and if he isn''t going to then we have to look elsewhere to clear wages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Nuff Said"]No, no, no. And no. Unless we get well over £10 million, and even then I still believe it would be a net loss to us. When you look at what McCormack, Rhodes etc were sold for last year, given that Cam contributes much more to the team as a whole than either of them, he has to be more valuable to us. Who remembers the last summer transfer window? Most of this board was panicking about our striking options and we ended up one of the highest scoring teams in the league. We''re well set up up front so let''s not jeopardise that. People who say "if we can replace him with a younger, cheaper alternative who can score 20 goals a season, then let him go" - what are you smoking? If such a player did exist, most of the Championship and probably half he Prem would be all over him. Decent strikers who perform well consistently are rare, hence the sums involved we saw last season. CJ is one of the hardest working players in the squad, experienced and would be an excellent mentor for the younger players we are likely to be blooding next season. We need players like him as well as up and coming talent. Selling him would be crazy unless we get a huge fee.[/quote]

 

I think you should read the reality bites thread about our finances.  And I think you''re rather contradicting yourself. 

 

Last summer I was one of those "panicking about our striking options" or rather, I was concerned when our striking options were down to Jerome plus Lafferty (so effectively just Jerome given that the manager would clearly never start Lafferty in the league) and some seemed complacent about starting the season that way.  Fortunately we were able to sign Oliveira, who pretty much fits the "younger, cheaper alternative who''s as good as Jerome" formula.  So maybe it''s you who''s being a bit blind, not me who''s "smoking something"?   When did Jerome last get 20 goals a season in the league by the way ?  Anyway, if we hadn''t signed Oliveira, we''d have been in deep trouble in the striking department, but it just goes to show that signings like that are achievable.

 

So I have serious reservations about selling Jerome because as several posters have pointed out, he makes a massive overall contribution.  But, given his age, this is probably the last time he could be sold for a fee, so if (and I repeat "IF") the new management think they can sell him and get in a cheaper, younger alternative who''s as good as Jerome, then I could understand them deciding to take that gamble, assuming he''s one of our bigger earners, so that it would allow them to strengthen another position, such as CB (where I was much more panicked last season and the season before, and both times the problem was not properly addressed, which was a large part of the problem we had with our squad - although in the end, last season''s squad was fully good enough to be competing for automatic promotion and the main problem was with the management of that squad IMO).

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i get the overall working for the team he chases everything and runs all day but i also think this is his problem

i would prefer others worked harder taking the pressing / running away from CJ so he can use the saved energy on composing himself in front of goal

you see many strikers who chase down and press but only between the lines of the box keeping central so when that ball comes in the box one they are there and also they have energy to control and compose themselves

Oliveira does that more than CJ who seems to work to hard in the wrong areas for me

i see it like Hucks not a great defender but he was not here for that we needed him to save that energy for his bursts forward

i remember Bill Punton telling wingers not to go back over the halfway line one because the full back would follow them but also because he want the wingers full energy going forward with more energy the full back would then tire quicker chasing backwards

let the full backs worry about defending is what he told them

same with CJ score the goals and save Energy for that not chasing from one side of the pitch when other players could push up press for him

maybe that is the Farke way ? or maybe he sees CJ as the wrong fit to his style ?

i prefer a striker who main aim is saving his energy for attacking than for defending

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerome has let himself down in front of goal too often to be relied upon to be our no1 striker. Yes he works tirelessly but that just makes up for his inconsistency in front of goal, it''s as though he feels he has to work that hard to prove himself. Oliveira is not the same type of player but there''s very little grumbling about him because more often than not he will take a chance given to him.

Yes Jerome has scored some valuable goals and can be relied upon as a decent option in the championship. However I can fully understand the option of letting a high earning, aging inconsistent player go who may well not fit into the new system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oliviera and Jerome actually have very similar scoring stats I believe. Similar accuracy % and both score approx 1 in 5 shots on goal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Interesting. I can only go on what I see as don''t look up stats in too much detail. Having watched both and despite Oliveira not doing as much running, I would still much rather have him in the starting 11 than Jerome.

Would be a shame to see Jerome go but I can see the view that he''s too expensive to have as a reserve striker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Fiery Zac"]Interesting. I can only go on what I see as don''t look up stats in too much detail. Having watched both and despite Oliveira not doing as much running, I would still much rather have him in the starting 11 than Jerome.

Would be a shame to see Jerome go but I can see the view that he''s too expensive to have as a reserve striker.[/quote]

The idea of a reserve striker is abit dated though, i firmly believe that if Jerome stays he will get enough games. If Oliveria and him had the same style i''d say let him go, but they are very different they give us the option to change it up. If he is too expensive he''s to expensive, but finding another player that works and scores as many as he does at this level will be tough to do. Not to mention we will most likely have to shop oversea''s and that adds another factor in how well they might adapt to tough grueling championship season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="hogesar"]Oliviera and Jerome actually have very similar scoring stats I believe. Similar accuracy % and both score approx 1 in 5 shots on goal.[/quote]I''d also suggest that it''s worth pointing out the difference between minutes per goal, in that Jerome takes approx 180 mins to score, compared to Nelson''s 127 mins, thus giving Jerome a potential 23 goals a season if he played every minute vs 32 for Nelson in the same amount of mins!In the interests of fairness however, we should note that Jerome has a hand in far more assists than Nelson does, which is a testament to his work rate and his ability to bring other players into the game vs Nelson''s more goalscoring biased approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Its Character Forming"] 

I think you should read the reality bites thread about our finances.  And I think you''re rather contradicting yourself. 

 I have read the thread and don''t understand how I''m contradiciting myself? IMHO we''re not yet at the stage where we have to sell the whole squad, are we? I completely understand that we have to recut our cloth this season, but we still have a year of parachute payments to go. If we can only afford young, up and coming players now, then what is going to happen next season?

Last summer I was one of those "panicking about our striking options" or rather, I was concerned when our striking options were down to Jerome plus Lafferty (so effectively just Jerome given that the manager would clearly never start Lafferty in the league) and some seemed complacent about starting the season that way.  Fortunately we were able to sign Oliveira, who pretty much fits the "younger, cheaper alternative who''s as good as Jerome" formula.  So maybe it''s you who''s being a bit blind, not me who''s "smoking something"?   When did Jerome last get 20 goals a season in the league by the way ?  Anyway, if we hadn''t signed Oliveira, we''d have been in deep trouble in the striking department, but it just goes to show that signings like that are achievable.

 I think we would have been worse off if CJ had been injured all season than if we hadn''t signed Oliveira, but opinions are like arseholes, we''ve all got one. You mention Lafferty - I would argue that he demonstrates that buying any new player is a risk. Oliveira seems to have been a good buy, although I worry about his propensity to injury and a little bit about his temperament. But he could have been a flop, like Lafferty and any number of players I could drag up from the recent past. We have a known quantity, who has played well for us since he joined, and swapping him for anyone, let alone gambling on a little known player, would be a risk. Decent strikers are at a premium, we have two, let''s hold onto them.

So I have serious reservations about selling Jerome because as several posters have pointed out, he makes a massive overall contribution.  But, given his age, this is probably the last time he could be sold for a fee, so if (and I repeat "IF") the new management think they can sell him and get in a cheaper, younger alternative who''s as good as Jerome, then I could understand them deciding to take that gamble, assuming he''s one of our bigger earners, so that it would allow them to strengthen another position, such as CB (where I was much more panicked last season and the season before, and both times the problem was not properly addressed, which was a large part of the problem we had with our squad - although in the end, last season''s squad was fully good enough to be competing for automatic promotion and the main problem was with the management of that squad IMO).

 Fair points about finance and timing, as you say, IF the management team think it''s a gamble worth taking, then we have to trust them. But for me we could sustain losing a player or two from midfield, and if the replacement turned out not to work, we would still have backup. Not so up-front.

 

[/quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we''re in a pretty similar place actually "Nuff Said".  I just thought you were rather contradicting yourself, by on the one hand criticising those (like myself) who were "panicking" last summer about our striking options when we effectively only had CJ as a viable starting striker, which turned out not to be a problem (because we signed Oliveira) but at the same time saying I was smoking something for thinking it could be realistic to sell CJ and get someone younger, cheaper and equally good (like Oliveira).


But anyway, I''d say as between Oliveira and CJ, my opinion is that Oliveira is probably marginally better as a finisher but CJ brings more to the team overall.  Having the two of them is great for a Championship team.  Oliveira has the advantage of being younger and (presumably) cheaper on wages.  I''d have to agree that if we''re selling, it would be better to sell from midfield where AN couldn''t stop buying.  But we don''t get to choose which players are saleable, it may be that CJ is and the new management may think that''s worthwhile - if they do, let''s just hope it''s a successful gamble and not one we come to regret.  We really only have part of the info so we''re just speculating - how much is he being paid and what could they sell him for, and which players do they think they could bring in for that money ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Its Character Forming"]But anyway, I''d say as between Oliveira and CJ, my opinion is that Oliveira is probably marginally better as a finisher but CJ brings more to the team overall.[/quote]I''d hardly call a potential 9-10 goal difference as ''marginally better'', that''s like claiming that Alexis Sanchez is marginally better than Fernando Llorente, or that Romelu Lukaku is marginally better than Joshua King...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree Indy, my stats were only to perhaps reduce what I think some people see as a massive gulf between the two players.

I''ve seen Oliveira have some very good games but i''ve also seen him have some very poor one''s. He doesn''t bring as much to the team as Jerome does overall however i''d agree he''s more clinical and selfish - with the right players behind him he''s the right type of striker to have.

We would miss Jerome though, and it''d be hard to replace him. Hence the quality of teams looking to take him from us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A "potential" 9-10 goal difference is worth nothing. The 5 extra goals Jerome scored are real. Don''t get me wrong, I like Oliveira, but he can''t sustain our attack on his own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agreed Hog,As stated, I''d prefer to keep Jerome as I think he''s a very good performer at this level and has hit 15+ a season both times we''ve been in the Champs which is not an easy thing to replace.It certainly appears that now more financial information and transparency is available, we''re seeing these player decisions are clearly primarily financially based, but if Webber and Farke can manage to make the changes they appear to be looking at AND save us drastically on wages/transfer fees whilst still giving us the best chance of promotion, then they''ll arguably be bigger miracle workers than McNally and Lambert!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Nuff Said"]A "potential" 9-10 goal difference is worth nothing. The 5 extra goals Jerome scored are real. Don''t get me wrong, I like Oliveira, but he can''t sustain our attack on his own.[/quote]The extra 5 goals were based on Jerome playing TWICE as many minutes as Nelson did, thus it''s perfectly reasonable to suggest that if Nelson had maintained his performance stats, then with the same gametime as Jerome he''d have finished with 23 goals - 7 more than Jerome finished with.I''d also fully agree that we can''t rely on a single striker to form our entire attack, and that injuries and suspensions can always potentially cause problems, but I''d also suggest that Nelson is our clear first choice in terms of goalscoring, but that BOTH do a good job for the team, and BOTH could be important in the coming season, but given the choice between the two, I''ll take the natural goalscorer every time, especially when he''s 5 years younger and likely on a lower wage as well.This isn''t about bashing Jerome BTW, just in case you thought that''s what was happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Its Character Forming"]But anyway, I''d say as between Oliveira and CJ, my opinion is that Oliveira is probably marginally better as a finisher but CJ brings more to the team overall.[/quote]I''d hardly call a potential 9-10 goal difference as ''marginally better'', that''s like claiming that Alexis Sanchez is marginally better than Fernando Llorente, or that Romelu Lukaku is marginally better than Joshua King...
[/quote]


That''s part of the reason I''m dubious about the minutes per goal stat, especially when you''re comparing game time within a single season for a team that had widely varying fortunes over the season.  Watching both of them, there''s no way there is a gulf between them (as finishers) like the other examples you mention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerome and Oliveira are very different types of striker. Jerome is at his best running with pace at the defense or taking the ball down, holding it then laying it off to others coming forward which is what makes him effective in away games, which is where he scored most of his goals. Oliveira is better playing against packed defences, working openings and shooting. They''re complementary and we need them both.

Replacing Jerome with another cheaper striker from the lower leagues here or in Europe would be very risky. If he fails, we fail. Oliveira could pick up a serious injury. Midfielders can be replaced but replacing reliable strikers poses a far greater risk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerome has been good for the club and is a player who gives his all. Now may be the right time to sell him though.

Farke is going to play a different style of football. Strikers will be asked to do different things to what they have done before. A player like Naismith is more likely to suit this style.

The ball isn''t going to be played wide early and the build up will be in the central areas of the pitch so that we don''t get mugged by teams like Huddersfield gegenpressing us out wide. There will be less running off the shoulder of the last man and strikers will be drawn deeper to play one twos in order to build an overload. In this format Jerome won''t be a 16 goal striker.

So next year Jerome''s resale value given his age and anticipated lesser goal tally will be negligible. Selling him now appears counterintuitive but it may be the right call. Plus selling Naismith with his wages will be difficult however on the plus side with this new way of playing we might finally see some return on him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Most if not all Championship clubs would like Jerome. We are only getting rid of him and others because the club clearly has significant financial worries and this is being badged up as a squad overhaul. We needed a couple of CBs and a left back and that was about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree Yorkshire, I''d be very happy if we just add 2 new CBs and a LB to what we have at the moment. Of course, if we sell Howson, Tettey or Naismith, they''d need replacing. For the purposes of this debate, I''m assuming Dorrans has gone - replaced by Vrancic).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps also another striker as well may be by taking a punt on a young lower league player with a few goals under his belt. For good or bad Lafferty needs replacing as a third choice back-up.

There have been suggestions on here that Morris is not yet ready and, indeed, may never be.

It will be interesting to see how he has "Summered." Perhaps it will be a great leap forward similar to that of some two years old racehorses when they become 3-y-o.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I like about Jerome is that he never hides and always gives his best.  He will always score goals - as well as miss them - but you know he won''t be phased or put off by the misses and will always come back for more.  Add to that his commitment to the club, which is top rate and it will be sad if he leaves, but as others have said, now may be the right time, with a new coach and new ideas. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The club''s finances are a lot, wages and transfer fees come out of the same place.

Wages have to paid for the length of the contract however and transfer fees can be spent when you have it, or not.

The strategic question is: Do you prepare for tomorrow today or tomorrow when it happens?

Dropping £15m this year compared to last (say) is not insurmountable or need(ed) not even be dramatic if you have valued assets that are accepted as temporary at elevated levels (see Masterclass ''Weapons'' strategy).

The significant drop away next year is the issue. Do you use your advantage this year to attack the league in a de-facto last-chance-saloon tactic or do you prepare for not going up this year and ensure sustainable survival into the future under the current constraints of a self-funded model?

Critics will argue that one inevitably leads to the other - and they may be right - but that is what we have and that is where we are.

All assets with value - particularly those assets whose value will diminish rapidly due to age - are prime maths for the sale list.

The real issue are the top leagues gambles that are not ''weapons'' but are expensive assets on high wages that no-one may want (given the wages/cost/contract/age parameters). Naismith is in this category.

In this scenario you may be forced to build (economically, structurally and tactically) around players that you would de-facto rather not have. Rich clubs cut their losses (at any cost).

It will also be extremely difficult for Norwich to maintain any senior players in de-facto back up roles. Whilst ''having Jerome off the bench'' is indeed a lovely, comfortable scenario. It it neither feasible for club financially, a fit with our reduced football ''brand power'', or acceptable to players that have other options.

The Masterclasses advised this kind of structural change when we had footballing brand power, money and the strategic opportunity to do it. The fear is that we have the right move a year or two too late.

We are where we are.

Parma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The club''s finances are a pot, wages and transfer fees come out of the same place.

Wages have to paid for the length of the contract however and transfer fees can be spent when you have it, or not.

The strategic question is: Do you prepare for tomorrow today or tomorrow when it happens?

Dropping £15m this year compared to last (say) is not insurmountable or need(ed) not even be dramatic if you have valued assets that are accepted as temporary at elevated levels (see Masterclass ''Weapons'' strategy).

The significant drop away next year is the issue. Do you use your advantage this year to attack the league in a de-facto last-chance-saloon tactic or do you prepare for not going up this year and ensure sustainable survival into the future under the current constraints of a self-funded model?

Critics will argue that one inevitably leads to the other - and they may be right - but that is what we have and that is where we are.

All assets with value - particularly those assets whose value will diminish rapidly due to age - are prime maths for the sale list.

The real issue are the top leagues gambles that are not ''weapons'' but are expensive assets on high wages that no-one may want (given the wages/cost/contract/age parameters). Naismith is in this category.

In this scenario you may be forced to build (economically, structurally and tactically) around players that you would de-facto rather not have. Rich clubs cut their losses (at any cost).

It will also be extremely difficult for Norwich to maintain any senior players in de-facto back up roles. Whilst ''having Jerome off the bench'' is indeed a lovely, comfortable scenario. It it neither feasible for club financially, a fit with our reduced football ''brand power'', or acceptable to players that have other options.

The Masterclasses advised this kind of structural change when we had footballing brand power, money and the strategic opportunity to do it. The fear is that we have the right move a year or two too late.

We are where we are.

Parma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...