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Fiery Zac

Rowett

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What I can''t work out is this premise that our new manager, whoever he may be, must be adept at getting the best out of a small shoestring squad, is that what we are now? Or are we planning ahead for Championship mediocrity?

Does a manager who has these "shoestring" qualities have what it takes to manage the squad we have? Regardless of what has happened this season, and the reasons for underperformance, the squad is anything but "shoestring".

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And I shall add (oh for an edit button) that if we are serious about promotion next season should we not be looking further than manager who have done okay with smaller teams?

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I completely agree again Morty , but the reality with our owners and board is that they will ,, as always go for the perceived cheap option .

So yes we need a manager who we all believe and more importantly the players believe can take us places , but we are almost back to the point now where we have to rebuild with a few more hungry players , unload the deadwood , and those who " don''t fancy it " , and go again with a squad that will have respect for the coaching staff , in order to have a squad capable of being promoted .

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i agree the next manager must be able to kick us on when or if we go up , easy said i know but like lambert he progressed with us ,something sadly AN has not done he did well got us up but then went backwards instead of progressing

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With that comment in mind , it''s why the sentiment exists that Rowett could be the next " smug eddy" or warburton could achieve what Lambert did with us .

Emotions and opinions , AN is a spent force in the parts now , sooner he is gone the better , not holding my breath though .

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The ''''win rate'''' issue has to be taken in context Mort. Its really not that simple, and i hope that you realise this yourself. Rowett had little money to spend at a Club already in trouble, AN had a fair bit to spend at a Club in relatively good shape, despite relegation and, some would say one of the strongest (on paper perhaps, certainly not mentally) squads in the Division.

Yesterday, as the fourth Sheffield goal went in, a Brum Chum of mine texted me this....... '''' Gary Rowett is available. worked miracles for us, lacks a bit of flair, but knows how to get the best out of what is available to him''''. This was the first i had heard from him since we played them (Brum).

No, i am not saying he would be a success with us, i am merely disputing the legitimacy of the dismissive nature of your response. The Brum Chum concerned is very much a Football man that knows his stuff and has no agenda.

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Problem is our owners will decide not us and I have zero confidence they will get it right. A new manager may give us a lift but without a new outlook from the people in charge, we will be talking about this on loop forever...

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All theory and opinion corky, and I have stated mine, its just as valid as anyone elses.

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]I completely agree again Morty , but the reality with our owners and board is that they will ,, as always go for the perceived cheap option .

So yes we need a manager who we all believe and more importantly the players believe can take us places , but we are almost back to the point now where we have to rebuild with a few more hungry players , unload the deadwood , and those who " don''t fancy it " , and go again with a squad that will have respect for the coaching staff , in order to have a squad capable of being promoted .[/quote]Simply not true. They didn''t go for the cheap option with Lambert, Hughton or Neil. All three were in work and considerable compensation had to be paid in at least two of the cases.As to Rowett particularly, this notion that posters such as myself want him only because he has done a good job on a shoestring and therefore see Norwich City getting downsized is also false. That Rowett has done well on a tight budget doesn''t mean that is all he can do, or that posters want him to have to do that with us. All three of those managers we chose had been dealing with tightly constrained budgets but that was not then how they had to operate with us.

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Neither the team, nor Neil himself have improved since the beginning of last season. A shake up is needed, both in playing staff and manager. Now that this season is a write off, bring in a new man now; his only remit for the rest of this season being to assess the squad and decide who he wants to keep and where he wants to improve.

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If you want facts for a Neil V Rowett comparison (that are significantly more relevant than win ratio) then I can only offer this.

In terms of on the pitch and promotion prospects (judged by how many points they are away from it), Birmingham when Rowett took over < Birmingham when Rowett left.

At the moment, Norwich when Neil took over > Norwich at the current time.

That alone convinces me Rowett > Neil.

Then when you factor in the money each had available to get from the start of their tenure to the end/current position (circa 50 million transfer spend to circa 5 million) then the comparison gets really, really embarrassing for us.

I''m not convinced Rowett will be a success. I am convinced he is hugely more likely to be a significant improvement on Neil and genuinely struggle, given the available facts, how anyone can think otherwise.

The cardboard only real argument I''ve seen is the meaningless win ratio and the fact that he has managed in the Premier League. One season that resorted in a relegation in what was widely accepted as being one of the poorest standards for many a year. His Premier League experience is a significant negative for me. I appreciate you learn from your mistakes but given the post Premier Neil is considerably worse than the pre Premier Neil (based on points and performance as opposed to my opinion) there is no evidence he has learned a thing.

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I''m willing to wager that if Rowett had a better win ratio than Alex Neil it would be both mentioned, and relevant....

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I''''''m willing to wager that if Rowett had a better win ratio than Alex Neil it would be both mentioned, and relevant....'''' ...Morto

I''m sure even you realise that given the squads at their disposal it would be relevant, very relevant. As it is, he did pretty well with not much, wish i could say the same for Alex.

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You''re right corky, achieving 7th spot in the Championship, for a week or two, really is quite an achievement.

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I''m willing to wager that yet again Morty''s next post will not debate the points raised or mount any meaningful defence of his Neil > Rowett position.

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Just out of curiosity, for context purposes, what is the difference in win % between the 2, and what is the average win % overall (across all managers)?

Also, I don''t see how other factors are not relevant when discussing win %. The funds both Neil & Rowett had available, the squads they inherited etc - in the same league you would expect Neil to have a hugely greater win %?

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''''You''re right corky, achieving 7th spot in the Championship, for a week or two, really is quite an achievement. ''''.......Morto

Just as topping the Table, albeit briefly, followed by a steady decline is admirable too.

For a seemingly mildly intelligent fellow , i would have thought that you''d have grasped this.

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its so hard to say what a manager who do or not until he is here

Rowett might be able to get a shoestring team playing for each other but not our team full of so called better players

same as the Lincoln city brothers they have done wonders with the team in the cup but hand them 5 million and say there you go build a team and they might struggle

managers have to fit and things fall in place like Lambert he has struggled since and hughton was spent here but fit well at brighton but if they go up and he has money to spend it might all change and he might go all defend at all costs again

Managers are like shares you buy them on the up but have to know when to sell and trade

or get them on the way down and hope they will rise again

sadly for AN he is in a nosedive and is bust

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http://www.managerstats.co.uk

Gary Rowett W: 42 D: 32 L: 32 - Total: 106 39.62%

Alex Neil W: 40 D: 20 L: 36 - Total: 96 41.67%

A fraction over 2%, not far off different amount of games, Neil has won 2 games less overall from 10 less games.

Neils win % was insane in our playoff year, Birmingham were out performing us before he was sacked (7th place)

38 of Neils games were in the Premier League so that skews figures further

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Another reason why win % is a fairly pointless stat...

If manager A goes a full 46 game season winning 23 games and losing 23 others he picks up 69 (snigger) points and a win % of 50%

Manager B in that same season wins 20,draws 12 and loses 14. He picks up 72 points but his win % is under 50%.

Who has done better there?

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Also, Zolas win % with the same team is less than 13% - how did Rowett get that squad 7th?

Did he overperform and make the squad better, or is Zola really that bad?

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Let''s be honest a new manager is always a gamble.

It just so happens that with the significant underachievement of Alex Neil followed by the likes of Jerome''s comments it means that the odds are significantly stacked in our favour of finding someone who will improve the situation.

I have literally no affinity or empathy towards an AN side anymore. I think that will become obvious at home games now we''re royally fcked for the season.

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[quote user="canarydan23"]I''m willing to wager that yet again Morty''s next post will not debate the points raised or mount any meaningful defence of his Neil > Rowett position.[/quote]Well theres a thing Dan, so far I have discussed our need for the type of manager Rowett is, mainly perceived as a "shoestring" type. I have discussed win ratio, which is a loose guide as to how successful a manager is, and I have discussed Premiership experience in the context of thats where we should be aspiring to be. What would you rather I discuss, each man''s hat size?Everything else is purely opinion and speculation.Whats your opinion then?

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You can''t judge a manager on statistics. Lennon had a brilliant win percentage at Celtic.

Surely our board will have a list of prospective replacements to consider at all times. Events happen and all teams must be prepared just in case.

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[quote user="Hairy Canary"]You can''t judge a manager on statistics. Lennon had a brilliant win percentage at Celtic.

Surely our board will have a list of prospective replacements to consider at all times. Events happen and all teams must be prepared just in case.[/quote]What was Lennon''s win percentage in the English Championship then?

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''I have discussed win ratio, which is a loose guide as to how successful a manager is''

Except thats not exactly true. It can easily be blown out of the water, as proved above. Its a pretty lazy way of looking at things. King made a great point about it just a few posts ago...

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Totally agree Hogo. If we forget defending the Clubs decisions re AN, then the obvious choice is for him to go. 2 mill is peanuts compared with continued failure . Of course, the new man, whoever he may be, might not succeed.

Jerome sounded eloquent and direct yesterday. The writing is on the wall, some too blind to see it.

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]''I have discussed win ratio, which is a loose guide as to how successful a manager is''

Except thats not exactly true. It can easily be blown out of the water, as proved above. Its a pretty lazy way of looking at things. King made a great point about it just a few posts ago...[/quote]A point I already addressed....Its the same as any stat, you can spin it with whichever context you want to.

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Whilst I now think we need a change, I don''t see Rowett as a shoe in. Warburtons record in the transfer market at Rangers was poor, and his signing of Barton not great.

Plenty of United old boys looking for work - both Nevilles, and Giggs. Hodson and Hoddle are both available with plenty of experience. Rossler doing well at Fleetwood, and Clough performing well with Burton.

These just some quick thoughts.

Appointing a manager is always a gamble - but surely a reasonable recruitment process would find a good replacement for Alex.

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