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a1canary

Neil unsackable? Blame Hughton!!

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I think what Hughton is doing on the south coast has had quite a bearing on the actions of the board/owners here.

It has reminded them that good managers don''t become bad managers and that given the right circumstances and the right tools, a proven manager can get it right even if he presided over failures previously. In fact it''s absurd to even think otherwise. Of course fans do think otherwise. A manager who has seen failures is a failure. Full stop.

I think the board would now rather write off the current season and task the current management with an overhaul following relegation. Relegated teams - with good reason usually - put all their efforts in to NOT changing the squad after relegation which is precisely what we did. If that doesn''t work though, overhaul is the only option.

There an automatic assumption that a new management team would do this overhaul job better, that there is a management team out there and available to do it and do it better.

The evidence is that when you allow a proven management team time to build something they are more likely to have success, given enough talent and money at the club as well of course. If you look at Karanka and Hughton and Carvahal they have all had to deal with failures at their current clubs but have been allowed to keep going and keep progressing and they are reaping the rewards of that currently.

Neil has not had the same sort of experience of building in the lower division as they have but he''s gaining it. He''s making mistakes - probably too many for most clubs - but you can let him learn and grow, which is a gamble, or you can sack him and look for someone else which is more of a gamble. For every manager that has success at a club, there are many more before them and after them that fail.

To be honest, we have done better than average on that front because 3 of our last 4 managers has brought us success. Look at the clubs around us and most have had a string of managers who have brought nothing before being sacked.

I tend to agree with the board. We are where we are, the decisions around the defence in the summer where baffling (Turner contract, failure to overhaul CB pairing or to manager Russ and his decline, i''d like to see him at the club but not in a playing capacity!). IF we have a complete defensive overhaul and integrate the youth players into the team with a few Dion Dublin type senior pros, bring in an experienced defensive coach maybe, then I think continuing like that would be no less likely to succeed next season than sacking the management and starting again.

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The current starting back 4 is...

Pinto...Martin...Klose...Dijks

3 of those 4 are Neil''s buys, the other is Neil''s undroppable captain. He has overhauled he defence (in terms of starters) so not sure what letting him do it again will actually change.

His recruitment has been the major issue (for me) and funds haven''t spent wisely. I cannot see the positives in giving him more money to rebuild

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Trouble is, Neil has been making the same errors over and over again for 18 months. I think when he first came in he galvanised and organised a dithering squad and we went on that amazing run. In the meantime, when he''s had transfer windows and a prolonged period to build and shape his squad, he''s mainly been failing. This is the big worry for me.

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I can see the point about Hughton doing well at Brighton, and the owners worrying whether they got it wrong when they sacked him.  The fact is, they did get it wrong - either they should have sacked him in January that year (or even earlier), to give a new manager a chance to turn things around.  Having persisted with Hughton until there were 5 games left, it was a stupid decision to sack him at that stage - they should have kept him until the end of the season and then decided whether they should keep him on for the next season.  My feeling is that by that point, he''d lost the faith of the players and supporters, so it probably would have not worked if he''d been kept on, but at least they could have made a considered decision about who to replace him with.

 

I can also understand the idea you should give a management team time to develop.  But I don''t understand your comment about Hughton/Karanka having been kept on by their current clubs despite having gone through periods of failure.  Hughton joined Brighton mid season when they were at risk of relegation and kept them up, the following season he got them into the playoffs, and this year they are looking solid for automatic promotion.  Ditto with Karanka, he joined during the season and they ended that season mid-table, then he got them to the playoff final, and the following year they were promoted.

 

If any of that represents a period of failure, I wish we could have a bit of that sort of failure at City right now !  Getting to the playoff final and losing is not really failure for a manager and it would be unusual not to support a manager who has achieved that.  Completely different from the sort of failure we are seeing with AN this season.

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All good points here.

I guess I have little faith in the board selecting a whole new management team that would be a success. Remember we have no chief exec and I think that''s another reason there has been no change. They may even have lost faith in themselves - without a Chief Exec particularly - to make a good choice as I think has been said above.

Regards Middlesborough and Brighton, tough as it sounds, losing in the play offs at final or semi final stage at least represents a failure to get promoted. At the end of the day, if you lose the play offs you may as well finish 17th for all the difference it makes! And in Brighton''s case there was a failure to hold the top places after being on top for long periods last season. Plenty of clubs would sack their managers after that. See Derby. And now look what has happened to them vs those teams who failed in the play offs but stuck with their managers.... Wednesday, Brighton, ''boro.

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A1 excellent read and I''d pretty much say that''s what''s happening.

Trouble is we backed Worthy past his first season down and it didn''t work.

Sometimes managers just don''t fit a certain club.

Anyhow we have little influence and we can watch how this all unfolds, but certainly a great OP

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]The current starting back 4 is...

Pinto...Martin...Klose...Dijks

3 of those 4 are Neil''s buys, the other is Neil''s undroppable captain. He has overhauled he defence (in terms of starters) so not sure what letting him do it again will actually change.

His recruitment has been the major issue (for me) and funds haven''t spent wisely. I cannot see the positives in giving him more money to rebuild[/quote]

Because:

1. Klose and Pinto were bought for the Premier League. We would never have bought them if we were already in the champ.

2. Having said that, Pinto has adapted ok and still has a lot to offer while Dijks has been excellent, albeit he will probably be gone next season.

If this season has taught him one thing it''s that the current defence hasn''t coped with Championship football. Martin needs to be pushed on to the coaching side of things. I''d like to see him stay at the club is some capacity, I think he is good management material and he genuinely seems to care. Bassong, Whittaker, Bennett are part of the old guard that needs to be cleared out.

Given all this, he won''t have a defence next year save for a few so he will have to overhaul it again. If he keeps the aforementioned old guard and builds a new defence around them I''ll be amazed. And will happily (and angrily) dig out my pitch fork and join the marches!

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I would like to agree with you a1 but I am afraid I cannot. There are just too many issues for me to suggest that AN is capable of turning this round. The CJ comments were pretty damning. If Neil has already "lost" players that he has either brought in or retained through multiple windows then I am highly sceptical about his ability to do anything other than "lose" the next (and probably inferior) bunch of players who come in.

My alarm bells started ringing when he failed to go out in the summer of 2015 to strengthen the defence. I seem to recall that he said that because the play off final extended the season there wasn''t time. Well, what about some forward planning before then when we were actually, for many weeks, challenging for autos let alone play offs. And if you get to the PL you should do absolutely everything to stay there. It was pretty obvious that the defence needed major surgery.

Sadly I am struggling to find much evidence to support AN''s capability or potential as a manager, judged purely by what I see on the field. Of course he may make a lovely cup of tea at Colney..............

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Respect that entirely TW.

I accept that he has got it wrong too many times to retain the faith of the fans. The players have to shoulder a lot of that too and I did not interpret the CJ comments as a dig at the manager. Far too much was read in to those comments. We got spanked and he said it wasn''t good enough and the players weren''t pulling for each other as they should. Simple facts those after a performance like that, not controversy there.

Getting that team ethic right is not always easy and we have too many at CR now who feel as if they''re time at the club is at an end so their hearts aren''t in it. No conspiracy there. Cameron knows under Neil he had one of his best seasons ever.

Tettey, Olsson, Klose, Brady, Naismith, Bennett were/are players who aren''t as invested in our success any more, imo. And when you are not 100% committed, you are found out pretty quickly. Get them out, get the younguns in and some lower league gems.

Tbh, if there is someone out there who can carry out that brief, who could value and nurture the youngsters, I''d be happy to replace Neil. Any ideas?

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I have to agree with Tumble, I have the same feeling. OP was good and has some valid points in it, but I don''t think AN is the manager that has to do the overhaul of the squad. I just don''t trust him anymore after all the cr@ppy performances (defensively and tactically) I''ve witnessed.

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A1, you make some worthy topics for a good argument but I would say you are wrong in stating that Hughton, Karanka and Carvahal were failures. For all we know, their employers may have told them to build. And even if they didn''t, they accepted that in the playoffs gives you a second chance.

And I think if we had witnessed something of a change or redevelopment at the club we would have accepted a play off place at the start of the season and obviously most definitely now.

But the managers poor record in the transfer market and his stubborness to admit he is making mistakes by constantly blaming the players, something that top managers don''t do, leads me to wonder how much of a gamble would it really be to remove him.

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I do see it as part of the manager''s job, and probably one of the most important aspects, to ensure that the players are motivated and fully invested in the club''s success. For so many to seem disinterested is quite alarming- one or two I could understand and may even be regarded as normal; but more than that suggests something cultural and widespread. And if that list includes big money signings by the manager himself rather than his predecessors it becomes even more alarming.

I have almost lost interest in the line up pre game since I don''t perceive any correlation between who''s in or out and the result come 5pm. I just can''t say any more whether Team X will be any better than Team Y: will it be a Forest (H) or a Weds (A) performance? Seems pretty random to me but sadly more of the latter than the former.

I do really seek to see each side of the argument, but the scales are weighing very heavy with me to the side which says "get rid" at the moment. There are not many counterweights other than the avoidance of compensation, (and pure hope!). I just can''t believe that so soon after that awful period when Hughton seemed to be clinging on game by game that we are back here again, a division lower. It''s a real waste of what seemed to be a golden opportunity that balmy day in May ''15.

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Correction sorry - I said they ''had'' failures not that they were failures period. The point being that in the eyes of many club owners a failure at the play off stage, particularly Hughton who many at Brighton might have said he should have taken up automatically but they fell away badly, is reason enough for a sacking.

And that by sticking with them they have looked stronger subsequently. So if in exactly a year''s time we are looking handily placed in the top 3, could say the same about Neil and a decision to stick with him today .

But look hey, if he left tomorrow I wouldn''t be crying and nor could he be. My biggest worry is our ability as a club and a board to recruit well if he left.

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[quote user="Tumbleweed"]I do see it as part of the manager''s job, and probably one of the most important aspects, to ensure that the players are motivated and fully invested in the club''s success. For so many to seem disinterested is quite alarming- one or two I could understand and may even be regarded as normal; but more than that suggests something cultural and widespread. And if that list includes big money signings by the manager himself rather than his predecessors it becomes even more alarming.

I have almost lost interest in the line up pre game since I don''t perceive any correlation between who''s in or out and the result come 5pm. I just can''t say any more whether Team X will be any better than Team Y: will it be a Forest (H) or a Weds (A) performance? Seems pretty random to me but sadly more of the latter than the former.

I do really seek to see each side of the argument, but the scales are weighing very heavy with me to the side which says "get rid" at the moment. There are not many counterweights other than the avoidance of compensation, (and pure hope!). I just can''t believe that so soon after that awful period when Hughton seemed to be clinging on game by game that we are back here again, a division lower. It''s a real waste of what seemed to be a golden opportunity that balmy day in May ''15.[/quote]

Great post TW. Again, can''t argue. I''d just refer you to my closing comment in my reply to keelansGD, if he goes tomorrow, with the club at this moment in time, how happy/confident would you be about the future then? Would you feel any better than you do now!?

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I think that depends, a1, on the type of person who takes over. Assuming it is a manager with experience then yes I would feel more confident, particularly if he takes over now because I do feel that 10 games or so to see the squad in action plus a transfer window would give us the best chance to relaunch an assault on the PL in August.

So a Mark Warburton or a Gary Rowett type person (just to pluck the names often touted round here) would please me since they have done well at other clubs and have a bank of experience to fall back on. The current presenter of Canary Call would not (whoever that may be). But it''s not as if that would ever happen is it............?!!!

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But look hey, if he left tomorrow I wouldn''t be crying and nor could he be. My biggest worry is our ability as a club and a board to recruit well if he left.

Yes. that is as great an issue as the ability of the new recruit.

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Id agree with those that suggest those examples don''t really fit. Yes they all lost in the play-off but I don''t think any of those teams would have expected more than making the play-offs.

You do have to take each situation on its individual merits. For every ''should we have given Hughton more time'' there is a ''good job we got rid of Gunn when we did.''

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I fail to see how you can compare Hughton/Karanka to our current predicament under Alex Neil.

We''ve just been relegated from the Premier League, we''ve entrusted him with a relatively large budget for our current level, and we''ve kept hold of our "best" players in the summer.

In the summer most fans seemed united in the fact that Alex Neil was a proven Championship manager, and believed that he was the man to gain promotion back to the promised land.

We haven''t gained promotion, and this season has been nothing short of a failure.

Some fans seem to have to short memories, if we''re not careful we''ll back to the days of Delia having to break her jam jar to sign players like Carl Robinson for 40k.

As a modern day football club Norwich City is probably in the best shape it has ever been, within a year it could all easily become a fond memory.

I also fail to see what Neil has shown to warrant another a shot at it?

Do you honestly believe he will get us promoted next season? If he doesn''t get us promoted will you view it as a failure? Or will we just give him another year to learn his trade at our expense?

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[quote user="Tumbleweed"]I think that depends, a1, on the type of person who takes over. Assuming it is a manager with experience then yes I would feel more confident, particularly if he takes over now because I do feel that 10 games or so to see the squad in action plus a transfer window would give us the best chance to relaunch an assault on the PL in August.

So a Mark Warburton or a Gary Rowett type person (just to pluck the names often touted round here) would please me since they have done well at other clubs and have a bank of experience to fall back on. The current presenter of Canary Call would not (whoever that may be). But it''s not as if that would ever happen is it............?!!![/quote]

Not quite what I meant - you''ve jumped straight to the appointment! I meant how confident/comfortable would you feel about the future when you wake up in the morning and hear Neil has been sacked, but BEFORE any new appointment! i.e. at the precise moment the majority of fans get what they want. I''m not sure we can have too much confidence in what would come next.

On recent occasions when our managers have been changed, the feeling of underwhelmness (word?) at the new appointment has been noteable. From Gunn to Lambert was distinctly mixed, as was Lambert to Hughton. From Hughton to Adams was underwhelming and no-one was all that thrilled when Neil replaced Adams. I don''t recall the last managerial appointment that really got the fans excited. Walker return? Bruce Rioch? Not that either of those worked out either lol! God I''m depressing myself now!

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[quote user="STAN"]I fail to see how you can compare Hughton/Karanka to our current predicament under Alex Neil.

We''ve just been relegated from the Premier League, we''ve entrusted him with a relatively large budget for our current level, and we''ve kept hold of our "best" players in the summer.

In the summer most fans seemed united in the fact that Alex Neil was a proven Championship manager, and believed that he was the man to gain promotion back to the promised land.

We haven''t gained promotion, and this season has been nothing short of a failure.

Some fans seem to have to short memories, if we''re not careful we''ll back to the days of Delia having to break her jam jar to sign players like Carl Robinson for 40k.

As a modern day football club Norwich City is probably in the best shape it has ever been, within a year it could all easily become a fond memory.

I also fail to see what Neil has shown to warrant another a shot at it?

Do you honestly believe he will get us promoted next season? If he doesn''t get us promoted will you view it as a failure? Or will we just give him another year to learn his trade at our expense?[/quote]

Not saying it''s the SAME. Just illustrating how clubs have stuck with managers like those when others (Derby) might have ditched them. In this case, granted, because of ok relatively minor failures. But the point is still valid.

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@a1

I don''t think the comparison is valid tbh - those are teams that achieved their goals for the season but fell just short of over achieving.

I can''t think of a manager who has similar level of underachievement as AN bouncing back to be a success.

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a1canary

Neither Hughton or Karanka have failed in their current jobs. If anything they''ve completely transformed their clubs.

Compare that to our very own Alex Neil. Has he completely failed this season? Yes.

I fail to see how that point is valid.

As for feeling underwhelmed at previous managerial appointments, Hughton was the unanimous choice amongst fans. Hardly underwhelming for most.

Perhaps we should give Owen Coyle a call? He managed to get Burnley promoted back in 08. As you said "good mangers don''t become bad managers". I mean it''s completely "absurd" to take into account his recent failings.

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Trouble is, Neil has been making the same errors over and over again for 18 months. I think when he first came in he galvanised and organised a dithering squad and we went on that amazing run. In the meantime, when he''s had transfer windows and a prolonged period to build and shape his squad, he''s mainly been failing. This is the big worry for me.[/quote][Y]

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[quote user="STAN"]a1canary

Neither Hughton or Karanka have failed in their current jobs. If anything they''ve completely transformed their clubs.

Compare that to our very own Alex Neil. Has he completely failed this season? Yes.

I fail to see how that point is valid.

As for feeling underwhelmed at previous managerial appointments, Hughton was the unanimous choice amongst fans. Hardly underwhelming for most.

Perhaps we should give Owen Coyle a call? He managed to get Burnley promoted back in 08. As you said "good mangers don''t become bad managers". I mean it''s completely "absurd" to take into account his recent failings.[/quote]
Yet people want Lambert back.
There is absolutely no formula for appointing managers that will work for your club. I wonder what the average is to find one? The following seems to be the consensus of opinion on this message board : -
Worthington yes and then no
Grant no
Roeder no
Gunn no
Lambert yes
Hughton no
Adams no
Neil no
So will the next one be a yes or a no and do other club''s have similar success rates in their own fans eyes?

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At this level managers either do well enough to get poached or badly enough to get sacked. There isn''t much of a middle ground.

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Had Lambert not of jumped ship theirs every chance he would''ve ended up joining the ''no'' list.

The Ferguson/Wenger style manager is all but dead. Very few managers are long term successes these days but many seem capable of delivering short term.

You could argue Roeder (it pains me to say) and Hughton were short term successes. Roedent joined the club when we were bottom of league and four points adrift of safety. Hughton guided us to our highest placed finish in the PL and left us with a very good squad. IMO Neil probably should''ve joined the short term success list and been sacked whilst we were still in the PL.

Delia seems intent on breaking the mould. Personally I''m not sure it will work.

I''m also not entirely sure I make sense, but one thing is for sure.. Alex Neil didn''t deliver what was required this season.

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Stan- you say in one of the posts above that Hughton and Karanka have, if anything, transformed their clubs. I agree with that. The trouble is that Alex Neil has arguably also transformed our club. He has taken a club with a great bunch of players hoping to establish themselves at the top table running out in front of 75K at Man Utd and seeing the stars of the Champions League visit Norfolk in front of a packed enthusiastic and noisy Carrow Road, into a miserable bunch of semi motivated also-rans who lose at Burton Albion, with its key players slowly losing interest or being moved on. Couple that with boardroom upheaval and there certainly has been a transformation!!

Ok, so that'' is slightly tongue in cheek and semi gratuitous, but to answer a1''s specific question if I heard today that AN was sacked, and before I knew the identity of his successor I would be more hopeful for next season rather than less. Right now I see minimal reason for optimism under the current football management team.

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Oh my, the Karanka thing was just an aside observation. I did not mean or say that they have been failures, only that they had had A MEASURE of failure that is often enough to get a manager the sack. And fwiw, Karanka is about to have another much bigger failure. I feel pretty sure he will leave or be shown the door when ''boro go down. What then? I bet ''boro fans are already complaining in much the same vein now that we did about Hughton. He has tried to stay up by being hard to beat and it isn''t working. So with a new manager, are their chances of coming back up better? No idea, it''s a complete unknown. But will Karanka''s ''transformation'' have added up to much if they can''t get straight back up? Fans don''t care for Neil''s promotion now. We do at least have a clutch of good young players who have a genuine chance of being part of a squad that could do something in this league. Many of those players brought in by or developed by Neil.

Success at this level, more than in the PL, is so much about finding the right formula, the right chemistry and motivations in a squad. We had it in Neil''s first season but in the PL it''s not normally enough on its own, we lost it and now we''re just scrabbling around.

But IF, and it''s a big if, there is a complete overhaul based on those youth players.... and there is recognition of the car crash that has been our central defence this season and our failure to sort it out in either transfer window... then I think Neil has just as much chance of re-finding that formula as anyone else out there who we might be able to recruit.

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A1, I still think you''re struggling to try to make those examples on a par with AN''s record this season and last.  The point about both Karanka and Hughton is that they were demonstrating an upward trajectory in getting their teams into the playoffs.   I''m pretty sure that is why their owners kept them on. 

AN''s team had a poor record last season (and, significantly, got worse from January onwards).  This season his performance in the Championship has been much worse than last time in the Championship.  So he''s on a downward trajectory.  And has done nothing to demonstrate he has got the managerial skills to turn things around next season...

 

Yes, I would have concerns about the Board appointing a good quality replacement for him.  But being honest I can''t see any real prospect of AN improving things over the summer, and the thought of him overseeing a rebuilding of the squad fills me with dread, given that would be our last chance to rejig things using parachute payments.  I would rather take a punt on who the Board choose to replace him.

 

Also the argument is a bit contradictory - on the one hand we''re told the Board know what they''re doing in deciding to keep AN, on the other hand we''re told we shouldn''t trust them to recruit a replacement.  I''m now in the camp that rates AN so poorly that the chances are a replacement will be better.


Finally, yes Karanka is now coming under pressure because Boro are now at risk of relegation.  That''s completely normal, in fact most Prem teams that are fighting relegation will change their manager during the season regardless of his past successes.  Actually, I can only think of one example in recent years of a team relegated from the Prem that kept on the manager they started the season with for the following season in the second tier....

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