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a1canary

Webber attracted by our BOARD!

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[quote user="Rock The Boat"]I always found it interesting that Delia and hubby campaigned during the referendum for a vote that would allow tens of thousands of unskilled foreigners into the country yet won''t sell her toy to a rich foreigner.[/quote]brexit gooddelia bad ... baaa baaa

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Managed to get Brexit in somewhere.

I think the original post has some merit. It may well be that Webber believes in doing things in the way he feels is correct for the game, country and club.

And I believe there will be little or no interference from the owners.

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[quote user=""]To re-emphasise so you understand. The fact is that many Norwich fans take an all too Norfolk attitude of "we don''t like furriners". There is a misconception spread by a few Norwich fans that all foreign owners are bad and that Delia and MWJ must be good because they''re British, and it''s a nonsense. Quite frankly 2017 and a "we don''t want them furriners comin'' over ere and buyin'' our football club" attitude is antiquated and belongs in the 1950''s.

[/quote]
This is an argument that nobody has put forward. So in essence you have become both parts of a debate that isn''t taking place. That''s pretty special even for the wonderful Pink Un.
Anyway, as I said to Baldy there''s no point in saying "look at Portsmouth" "look at Bournemouth". It''s been done to death on here. The only way to judge the different ownership models against ours is with a comprehensive list of similar clubs and their owners over the same period. The make up of the present PL is ridiculous to use as it changes from season to season. Half the 20 have been there for 7 seasons or less and 5 of them for 2 seasons or less. 

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A few points for the hard of comprehending.

Baldyboy - Since you like asking for quotes, how about you quote anywhere on this post where anyone has said the owners are wonderful or great or whatever. I specifically said they have made mistakes, ergo they are far from perfect. But please point to a club that hasn''t made any mistakes. The reality is, all clubs will make mistakes and take the club in the wrong direction at times.

When that happens, ask yourself who you want in charge of the club... a Venkys, an Allam, a Yeung, a Gaydamak, a SISU?

Iwan''s Big Toe

This Norwich and Norfolk folk dun loike furriners rubbish is a lazy cliche, a totally misguided interpretation of the concern about club ownership, and simply wrong. Sure there are folk everywhere who have that attitude but it is nothing to do with football.

Football clubs are based in a specific locality and by definition draw on their local communities for their existence, support, culture and history. So to criticise fans who''d like that link respected and protected by the club''s owners is every shade of wrong. Fans aren''t automatically against outside ownership but naturally are anxious for the club''s culture, identity and interests to remain protected when the club is taken over by someone who has no knowledge understanding or reference to that culture and identity.

Despite your random list of clubs posted above, you conveniently ignore the total disasters that have been Coventry City, Leeds Utd, Blackburn Rovers, Portsmouth... clubs who have been to hell and back (or are still in hell in some cases) because of owners cutting and running when things turned sour.

Foreign ownership can work out, but it can go horrendously wrong. We''ve made errors but recovered reasonably and not crashed to the depths like the above. We are actually about where we can expect to be in the pyramid of the top two divisions. We aren''t a Man U or a City or a Chelsea so we need consistently good decisions, management and to keep punching above our weight to break in to the top division and stay there. We''ve done that and we haven''t done that. People need to recognise this rather than assume we have a divine right to a moneybags sugar daddy who would have given us better years than we''ve had in the last decade or so.

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[quote user="Nuff Said"]Just to be clear, the complete agreement was with Purple. Your ''argument'' is so full of holes it''s hard to know where to start.[/quote]Crafty Canary, bless him, is willing to use pretty much any anti-Smith and Jones argument under the sun but not even he would be hilariously dumb enough to pretend it is valid to compare Norwich City with Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool...

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[quote user="king canary"]The last Norwich fan I heard say he wouldn''t want foreign owners was MWJ to be fair.[/quote]You need to get out more.

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A1 Canary, it''s not on this post I was referring to where people say our owners are great, hear it every game I go to about how wonderful they are!

Then you make a point about Venkys etc which is where the foreign ownership argument falls down yet again because to counter the bad foreign owners there are good foreign owners such as Leicester, Chelsea, Man City et al, I would actually say there are more successful foreign owners than not as my point about the teams in the Prem was made, everybody has a different opinion on ownership and be it good or bad, we may never find out here, but to absolutely dismiss all chance of outside investment in today''s era is why I dislike our owners as if you want to dine at the top table you need to be able to pay top dollar. Sadly, with our owners not being ultra wealthy and seeing the poor choices made previously by them, and yes there has been the occasional good choice, then I am sceptical about the future.

Hopefully this restructuring can work, but I won''t pre judge it due to what I have seen previously, surely that''s a logical way to look at it rather than say everything will be fixed straight away?

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Nuff Said"]Just to be clear, the complete agreement was with Purple. Your ''argument'' is so full of holes it''s hard to know where to start.[/quote]Crafty Canary, bless him, is willing to use pretty much any anti-Smith and Jones argument under the sun but not even he would be hilariously dumb enough to pretend it is valid to compare Norwich City with Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool...[/quote]Purple old boy, I''m not sure if you''re being deliberately obtuse, or if you find simple concepts difficult to understand. I wasn''t comparing City to any of those clubs, I was comparing their owners to ours in an attempt to demonstrate to even the most obstinate and stiff-necked City fan that all foreign investment is not unhealthy. If all foreign investment was detrimental, Chelsea wouldn''t be enjoying the most successful period in their history, Man City wouldn''t be regularly finishing top 4 and Leicester wouldn''t have won the title last season.Of the 33 Clubs that currently have a foreign majority shareholder(s), 15 of those are currently in the division above us, a further 4 are sitting higher in the table than us, 1 in the division below will be in the same league as us next season, with 1 or 2 of them looking like they will make L1 Playoff and be in with a chance of joining Shef Utd and only 3 foreign owned teams from the football league (one from each division) are looking relegation candidates at this stage in the season. The fact is that 16 out 20 of the currently most successful football clubs in England have some form of foreign investment while only 7 currently (which could be 5 next season) in a division below us do. Now are there basket cases among those clubs, sure. The Allam''s seem intent in antagonising every Hull supporter at any available opportunity, Cellino should never have been allowed to by Leeds, the guy at Leyton Orient is burying his head further in that sand at his club''s problems than anyone associated with the running of Norwich City ever has and Vincent Tan is like a satirical Bond villain. Even Watford, who are enjoying the best period of success since Graham Taylor and Elton John first had a major say in the club, seem intent on sacking their manager every year no matter how well he has performed. But unlike what many who post on here would have you believe the basket case clubs (foreign owned or otherwise) are the exception rather than the rule. There are good owners, bad owners and average owners and many of the current owners being branded as "bad" have never overseen a relegation to their clubs lowest level in over 40 years. Now is everything our current owners have done over their tenure bad, no. We''ve had some very good times: 4 promotions, 2 play off finals and thrashing 1p5wich home and away in the same season can definitely be seen as highlights. But at the same time under their watch we have offset the promotions by being relegated 4 times, finished in our lowest league position for 40 years, had no discernable cup run bar one league cup 1/4 final and have teetered on the brink of administration with £25m(+) worth of debt. Add to all of this the string of poor managerial appointments and I believe that all of the eggs are in the Webber basket and if it doesn''t work out the rumblings we''ve heard from the fan base over the last year or so will more than likely turn into an 8.5 on the Richter scale. And if that happens the only option left to our owners to save their bacon could be foreign investment.

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[quote user="Baldyboy"]FAO Iwans big toe, Daniel Levy owns Spurs and he is Israeli so they are not owned by Brits, sorry 😐[/quote]Joe Lewis is majority shareholder at Spurs, owning a 70.6% share of the company that owns 80% of the holding company that owns Spurs. He was born in London in 1937.

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So IBT, you conveniently poi t out that our current owners have teetered on the edge of administration (I believe the source of the debts has been discussed previously and it wasn''t necessarily their ownership which caused those debts, bit regardless of that), but, they pulled us out of it. How many of those clubs that are comparable to us and performing better have avoided administration and how many of them are actually being run in a sustainable basis? I don''t have the answers to those questions but can think of a few examples for the former and not very many of the latter (as exampled by the number of our size clubs that have to break FFP to go up, e.g. Leicester, boro, QPR, etc.).

I agree it would be nice for our club to have more money, bit, I would prefer it to be generated on a sustainable basis and not leave us relying on a rich benefactor or premiership TV money in such a way that relegation would be a death sentence for the club.

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[quote user="cornish sam"]So IBT, you conveniently poi t out that our current owners have teetered on the edge of administration (I believe the source of the debts has been discussed previously and it wasn''t necessarily their ownership which caused those debts, bit regardless of that), but, they pulled us out of it. How many of those clubs that are comparable to us and performing better have avoided administration and how many of them are actually being run in a sustainable basis? I don''t have the answers to those questions but can think of a few examples for the former and not very many of the latter (as exampled by the number of our size clubs that have to break FFP to go up, e.g. Leicester, boro, QPR, etc.).

I agree it would be nice for our club to have more money, bit, I would prefer it to be generated on a sustainable basis and not leave us relying on a rich benefactor or premiership TV money in such a way that relegation would be a death sentence for the club.[/quote]That''s great and if we were a FTSE100 company that turn around would hold a lot of weight. But we''re not a FTSE100 company we are a Championship Football Club and as far as I am aware promotion to the top flight is reliant on how many points you score, not how good your finances are. It''s great that we have been pretty stable financially for the last few years, but success on the pitch is always the priority. Get that right and the bank account will more than likely take care of itself, as it has since we got promoted in 2011. Fail on the pitch though, and the dark days of Doomcaster could be upon us sooner rather than later.

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[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Nuff Said"]Just to be clear, the complete agreement was with Purple. Your ''argument'' is so full of holes it''s hard to know where to start.[/quote]Crafty Canary, bless him, is willing to use pretty much any anti-Smith and Jones argument under the sun but not even he would be hilariously dumb enough to pretend it is valid to compare Norwich City with Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool...[/quote]Purple old boy, I''m not sure if you''re being deliberately obtuse, or if you find simple concepts difficult to understand. I wasn''t comparing City to any of those clubs, I was comparing their owners to ours in an attempt to demonstrate to even the most obstinate and stiff-necked City fan that all foreign investment is not unhealthy. If all foreign investment was detrimental, Chelsea wouldn''t be enjoying the most successful period in their history, Man City wouldn''t be regularly finishing top 4 and Leicester wouldn''t have won the title last season.

[/quote]Oh dear god. Of course you were directly - and absurdly - comparing Norwich City and its achievements under Smith and Jones to those of much bigger clubs with a long history of trophy-winning and achievement predating the arrival of foreign ownership/money. To take just two examples from several, quoting from your first post:Liverpool - John Henry has only over seen 1 major trophy win since

buying the club in 2010, a 2012 League Cup. That is however 1 more major

trophy more than Delia and co have ever managed and added to the fact

they have finished above us every season........... better record.Man

City - Since Sheikh Mansour bought the club in 2008, City have won 2

Premier Leagues, an FA Cup, 2 League Cups and a Community Shield. The

have also been regular participants in Europe. Better record than Delia

and co.And if that wasn''t clear enough you summarise thus:So there we have it, 15 of the 20 top flight

sides are foreign owned and you would be hard pushed to say more than 2

of those owners have done a worse job than The Cook, the Printer, the

Dancer and their Luvvies.Probably not the best idea, if you are pretending to provide an unbiased analysis, to finish off with that infantile description of the board members. It did rather give your malign game away.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Nuff Said"]Just to be clear, the complete agreement was with Purple. Your ''argument'' is so full of holes it''s hard to know where to start.[/quote]Crafty Canary, bless him, is willing to use pretty much any anti-Smith and Jones argument under the sun but not even he would be hilariously dumb enough to pretend it is valid to compare Norwich City with Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool...[/quote]Purple old boy, I''m not sure if you''re being deliberately obtuse, or if you find simple concepts difficult to understand. I wasn''t comparing City to any of those clubs, I was comparing their owners to ours in an attempt to demonstrate to even the most obstinate and stiff-necked City fan that all foreign investment is not unhealthy. If all foreign investment was detrimental, Chelsea wouldn''t be enjoying the most successful period in their history, Man City wouldn''t be regularly finishing top 4 and Leicester wouldn''t have won the title last season.

[/quote]Oh dear god. Of course you were directly - and absurdly - comparing Norwich City and its achievements under Smith and Jones to those of much bigger clubs with a long history of trophy-winning and achievement predating the arrival of foreign ownership/money. To take just two examples from several, quoting from your first post:Liverpool - John Henry has only over seen 1 major trophy win since

buying the club in 2010, a 2012 League Cup. That is however 1 more major

trophy more than Delia and co have ever managed and added to the fact

they have finished above us every season........... better record.Man

City - Since Sheikh Mansour bought the club in 2008, City have won 2

Premier Leagues, an FA Cup, 2 League Cups and a Community Shield. The

have also been regular participants in Europe. Better record than Delia

and co.
And if that wasn''t clear enough you summarise thus:So there we have it, 15 of the 20 top flight

sides are foreign owned and you would be hard pushed to say more than 2

of those owners have done a worse job than The Cook, the Printer, the

Dancer and their Luvvies.
Probably not the best idea, if you are pretending to provide an unbiased analysis, to finish off with that infantile description of the board members. It did rather give your malign game away.
[/quote]Reading not your strong point old boy? I''ve got a six year old nephew who can give you some tutoring if you need it?

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Oh and ps Purps. I''ve never once tried to pretend that I have an unbiased opinion of what goes on at Carrow Road, as a fan it''s difficult to remain on the fence. If you manage to I''d question if you''re actually a Norwich fan. The difference between me and thee is I''m not trying to pretend I don''t have an agenda. [;)]

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It is not a secret that I worked at Norwich as a very young coach in the early days of the Delia Smith takeover.

The club was in flux, finances were tight and there were many fires to fight. Equally good things were put in place that I was sad to leave to further my career.

Whilst the circular debate about ownership has recurring themes, there is right and validity on both sides, football has indeed changed and the actualité of football is far from what it was 20 years ago, often for the better.

Financially there is no going back to jumpers for goalsposts and playing in the street until a friendly copper brought you round to your mum''s for a cuppa and ear clip.

Our success has been based on the lifeline thrown to us by Lambert''s management, some financial savvy from Bowkett, a period of hands-on straitjacket McNally management and the honest, passionate and trust-delegated ownership of the majority owners. Mostly a great big pile of Premier League cash got us out of another big hole.

The Masterclasses often focused on the progressive process-over-popularity, systems-over-soundbites structural club-building and consistent coaching, playing and educational style throughout a club. The creation of a methodology, an ethos, a philosophy and a realpolitik analysis of what can be achieved with the hand we hold.

Others have dreamed of and received riches, investment foreign or otherwise, there are successes and failures. Selecting billionaire winners or hubristic failures proves neither side right.

What is interesting is when a club follows much of what the Masterclasses recommend and are then faced with the reality that finances are clearly a glass ceiling even at the middle tier of the Premier League.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39555359

Swansea progressed organically, created and identity, selected coaches and players to mat h their philosophy and structure, embraced much of what is good in modern football, had passionate local owners and a community-centred ethos. Fans had a Trust owning over 20% of the shares. Regular Premiership football was achieved.

A role model?

They too reached a perceived ceiling. They sold to willing and passionate not-too-foreign American investors who - it states - were either not aware of agreements between Trust and Club - or had plausible deniability of such an agreement.

Club now languishes. Trust and trust is betrayed. The imperfect Faustian bargain has been made. History is changed forever, no going back.

Many good procedures were followed. Much good structural work was achieved over an extended period. To the neutral the Club has and does perform above expectations.

Read the articles. Read the fans views. Assess their views of their Club now.

Where did it all go wrong George?

Parma

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"Our success has been based on the lifeline thrown to us by Lambert''s

management, some financial savvy from Bowkett, a period of hands-on

straitjacket McNally management and the honest, passionate and

trust-delegated ownership of the majority owners. Mostly a great big

pile of Premier League cash got us out of another big hole.

"

Stunning insight... what would we do without you ?

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"Parma is a million times the poster you''ll ever be fella."

How true.

It was a long and interesting post and it made a few good points.

Is that the forum laughing stock at it again?

I''ve lost track with so much stupid name changing

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]"Parma is a million times the poster you''ll ever be fella."

How true.

It was a long and interesting post and it made a few good points.

Is that the forum laughing stock at it again?

I''ve lost track with so much stupid name changing[/quote]Bless him Broady as City1st thinks he is funny on a forum full of dimwits and Suffolk farmhands. [:D]

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[quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]

Swansea progressed organically, created and identity, selected coaches and players to match their philosophy and structure, embraced much of what is good in modern football, had passionate local owners and a community-centred ethos. Fans had a Trust owning over 20% of the shares. Regular Premiership football was achieved.

A role model?

They too reached a perceived ceiling. They sold to willing and passionate not-too-foreign American investors who - it states - were either not aware of agreements between Trust and Club - or had plausible deniability of such an agreement.

Club now languishes. Trust and trust is betrayed. The imperfect Faustian bargain has been made. History is changed forever, no going back.

Many good procedures were followed. Much good structural work was achieved over an extended period. To the neutral the Club has and does perform above expectations.

Read the articles. Read the fans views. Assess their views of their Club now. 

Parma[/quote]

This.  Swansea are now struggling.  All that good work, lots of progress and good times - and then selling out to investors who have largely shafted the fans - and they risk being back where they started next season.  Like Parma says, there is no going back once the selling out has happened. The damage has been done - their club will never be what it was, again.  NEVER sell out just for the money. The risks are just to great.  For every Southamton there are plenty of horror stories - and I wouldn''t mind betting that sooner or later Southampton will struggle too.  Trying to get into and staying in the Prem by selling out is a bad idea.  Rock on Delia and co, your approach is the right one - protect the ethos of the club and keep it within means.  The club is more important than the Pemier League.

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TIL1010

Bless him Broady as City1st thinks he is funny on a forum full of dimwits and Suffolk farmhands. Big Smile [:D]

Hope we are not putting us all in this category Tilly, i would never be a Suffolk farmhand ;-)

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The only question I would ask Parma?

Did Swansea reach that ceiling by evolution or were they pushed there?

And when I say pushed I include supporters in that.

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There''s a conundrum. If supporters are credited with playing a part in the rise of a club then they surely play an equal part of the decline.

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Dear or dear City 1st, youve excelled yourself this time.

Keep them coming Parma, one of the best posters on here without doubt

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