Wingers, the system and the one signing that could make it work.

[king canary 7,604]

First off this post is pulling together several separate ideas, provoked by a few different posts I''ve seen on here- I think they fit together. though. It will probably be quite long and I am fully prepared for it to be dismissed as some sub-Parma-Ham type bollocks. Have at it.

I''ve become increasingly frustrated by the treatment some fans dish out to our wide players which I believe stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of what wingers are asked to do in modern football in general and in this system in particular.

Around me I constantly here people getting frustrated with Murphy, who seem to thing all a winger should do is ''get wide'' and ''run at him, take him on!'' This seems to stem from the classic 4-4-2 style of English football that many fans are so used to yet isn''t really what our wingers need to be doing.

We play an attacking 4-2-3-1 with fullbacks asked to bomb forward at every opportunity. This means our wingers will naturally tuck in and cut inside to give the fullbacks spaces to run into and overlap. Hitting the byline and putting crosses in is not hugely helpful when you only have one striker to aim for amongst a sea of large defenders. Instead Murphy and Naismith will come in closer and look to play through the defences with swift passes and interchanges, moving defenders around and creating space for people to run in to.

This also effects their defensive duty- in a traditional 4-4-2 then it would be the job of the winger to fill in if his fullback overlapped but in this formation the wingers need to be up too to support the strikers and create space for Pinto and Dijks to attack.

This of course leaves us extremely vulnerable in defence and where the system falls apart a bit with the players we have. To avoid getting hit on the counter attack so easily we should be shifting into more of a 3-4-3 when we have the ball. A disciplined defensive midfielder holds back and allows the centre halves to split and cover some of the gaps left by the fullbacks. We don''t have that player.

Tettey is a good defensive midfielder who breaks up play brilliantly at times but positional discipline is not a strong part of his game. He is prone to chasing the ball and following up field rather than hanging back to cover defensively. Asking the two centre backs to cover essentially the whole width of the pitch is asking for trouble and teams can either knock it long into the channels and pull the defenders out of position, or run straight at them, leaving spaces on either flank for an overlap.

I believe we need to invest in a new centre back as too many of our current group have grown stale in Norwich but equally as important would be a player who suits this real holding role. The player with the most discipline in this position is actually probably Dorrans but he is too weak in the tackle to be effective. Mulumbu could do it but is never fit and pretty immobile and I''ve not seen enough of Thompson to judge if he could be right for it. For me the key signing next season could be in this position.

This could all become entirely irrelevant if we end up with a new manager who wants a different system though so there we go....

[Crabbycanary3 994]

I would like to see (either) Murphy, that when in possession of the ball, they beat more men than they don''t. I do not want them to be shrugged off the ball, more times than they are not. I would like them to, once they have passed a ball, to keep moving, and create further problems for the opposition, in the same move. I would like them to, when they are have 20 yards of space, and 1 big unit, only, to take on, TO take them on and try and do what wingers are described as, in the footballing dictionary.

I am not expecting overly fantastic things from them, defensively (a la Hucks)

[king canary 7,604]

@Crabby

Maybe I''m missing something but I think they do those things- particularly the part about keeping moving after passing the ball on.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

king - sorry but they don''t do it often enough (I am not that harsh on them, that I expect them to run like Usain Bolt for 90 mins), but the amount of times they both, pass the ball, and just walk, whilst we move forward as a team, is ridiculous. I watch them,specifically, a lot, and the people who sit near me, know how much I bang on about them.

I so want them to make the best of what they have (I know it doesn''t sound like it with this, but I genuinely do), but they have a LONG way to go.

[king canary 7,604]

Of course they have a long way to go- they are 21.

My point in this thread is people get on at them for not doing things that they think a winger should do- get to the line, get wide, run at players, take them on- when actually the system the manager is playing doesn''t want them to be doing those things.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

In essence, I agree with you. Modern football, doesn''t lend itself to wingers (as we knew them years ago) . A more central role etc.

I guess what I am going on about, isn''t exclusively to wingers, (but is to the Murphys). They are 21 , and we all want them to learn as quick as possible. The pressure is on them, being so young, and the expectation of the team, on being one of the favourites to go up (well, it was a few months ago!)

They are the ''X'' factor players in our team (Wes excepted) and they need to be producing that on more regular occasions

[paddycanary 539]

I''ve thought for well over a year now that a solid & reliable defensive midfielder should have been top of the shopping list. It''s pretty clear now that AN favours the 4-2-3-1 with attacking full-backs. On paper Klose, Martin, Bennett, Bassong & Turner are as good, if not better, than any other centre-back options in the Championship. Tettey has his qualities, but not enough to be disciplined enough to enable the implementation of AN''s desired philosophy.

Unfortunately, the signing of Mulumbu hasn''t worked out. For me, Dorrans just doesn''t "have enough" in his locker; he''s a decent backup but is fairly limited. Thompson looks to have some real potential but sadly for him & us, when his chance came he got crocked. It''s too soon for Godfrey, be it in midfield or defence.

A ''rock'' in defensive midfield, i.e. an upgrade on Tettey, would give Howson more freedom and leave the centre-backs less exposed when the full-backs go on their swashbuckling meanderings into the opposition half. I''m not so sure how helpful it is to keep pointing the blame at Jacob Murphy for Sunday''s goal. Every player is going to make some mistakes, particularly younger ones. We''ve comfortably scored enough goals to be in the top six this season. As has been stated countless times on this forum, our ''soft underbelly'' defending quick counters, tracking runners from deep and preventing dangerous crosses should be the bread & butter of a defensive midfielder. We need an ''enforcer'' who quietly marshals the area between midfield & defence.

[westcoastcanary 173]

@king canary

Excellent post. A couple of points. Firstly, attacking full backs are fine, but only, generally speaking, if they attack one at a time. If both are in advanced positions, and neither wide midfielder drops back to cover, the defence is left exposed to a degree no DM however disciplined will be able to cover. Even with two DMs keeping discipline, you are left with only 4 defenders at the mercy of onrushing, counter-attacking forwards. Secondly, for all he is a terrific player, Jonny Howson is not and never has been a natural DM. So if we are to continue to play two in front of the back four, I think we need someone to whom defending comes more naturally, in addition to an upgrade on Tettey.

[Ray 111]

king canary,

They are 22.

Whilst I accept none of us are too old to learn at 22 I would have expected them to be further along with their learning, their problem or our coaching??

[morty 0]

Let me guess Ray, you''re blaming Alex Neil?

[morty 0]

but going back to the OP, this is something I have mentioned quite a few times, a winger is not a wide midfielder and vice versa, and the concept of a winger played in a flat 4-4-2, is a dying one.

Its rare you''ll see an out and out winger any more, whose only job is to skin a full back, get to the byline, and cross the ball into the box. If anything the inverted winger, who cuts inside, is the only thing that resembles the concept any more.

[king canary 7,604]

@westcoast

I''m not sure you need to replace Howson- if you have a defensive midfielder helping out the defence and you can combine it with keeping one of the fullbacks from committing too far forward then someone like Howson running from deep can take advantage of the space made by the attacking midfielders.

[king canary 7,604]

@ray

I think they are coming along fine. Jacob has become a very decent Championship starter and Josh has grown into the season as it has gone on. He was excellent v Forest and really shouldn''t have been on the bench ever since.

It''s worth remembering that for both brothers this is only their second season as regular starting players anywhere.

[Ray 111]

Morty, anyone making assumptions or guessing often means they can be wide of the mark?

My question was, their problem or our coaching, we do have a team of coaches, well I think we do, and if I thought the blame laid entirely at AN''s feet I would have said so.

I would suggest, based on my knowledge and experience, that as yet they haven''t reached the level I would have expected and this is a shared responsibility but then maybe I set the bar to high.

[hogesar 9,658]

I don''t agree with your train of thought about how Jacob should be further ahead Ray. This is his FIRST EVER season at Championship level and he''s already recorded something like 8 goals and 5 assists.

But in terms of the OP, you''re pretty much spot on. The 4-2-3-1 and similar formations basically create an interchanging attacking midfield that operates fundamentally within the width of the 18 yard box. Of course, on counter attacks and opportunity to break players like Jacob have pace to burn and will use the space on the wings where they can.

[Number 9 0]

Howson has been doing that job but it''s not his best position. It''s probably testament to how good he is that he has been proficient at that role recently.

Yes it is problematic when both full backs bomb forward at once.

The OP makes reference to Parma''s analysis of Neil''s system and if I recall one of the other issues was that the system relied on the centre half''s moving forward and picking out passes to the attacking midfielders / striker, not just playing to the dm.

This whole total football type system relies on pace and energy without the ball, something we are often lacking.

As a side point, the goal on Sunday had 4 defenders in a line, several City midfielders very close to the player crossing the ball, and 2 players close to the scorer.

It seemed that the personnel were sufficient to defend the play but everyone froze at once.

Not sure if that''s concentration or coaching issues? I suspect that if you had a hard nut commander barking out instructions it would be less likely to happen. Whether that''s a new captain or a manager or both?

You couldn''t imagine Pulis putting up with it.

[westcoastcanary 173]

@king canary

Other teams try to do what we try to do to them, create an attacking overload. However good Howson is at making his attacking runs from midfield, he needs to be able to defend better than he does. It''s no good tracking back if you are behind the attacker you are supposed to deal with! IMO he contributes too little to our defence for the team''s good.

[Ray 111]

Hi hogesar,

I fully accept the lads know where the goal is and possess pace and skill. I also fully accept that it takes time to learn the nuances of top flight professional football, however, I am specifically referring to the ‘effort’ put in to tackling, competing in the air and speed of ‘getting back’ to help out in defence. Surely these are prime requirements, which as far as I can see are not being performed as well as they could be. Other skills such as knowing when to pick a pass rather than go it alone will come with experience, I get that, but the three aforementioned facets of performance are facets that could be improved very quickly IMO. Dare I say it, it may simply be a change in attitude (mindset) that is needed.

The top teams, such as Chelsea, have a work rate second to none, when they attack they attack at pace, all of them and when they lose the ball then all of them, maybe not Costa, sprint back to get behind the ball, something I see very little of at Carrow Rd, yet surely our players are as fit as the Chelsea team, and if they aren’t why aren’t they?

[rock bus 851]

A hard tackling, disciplined, good passer central midfielder....Gary O''Neil any one?

I was gutted that he left last season and think he is exactly what we have been missing this season.

That bit of experience, passion, commitment and a willingness to put a foot in has been our biggest problem this season.

[GJP 79]

Gary O''Neil has become a bit overrated.

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="GJP"]Gary O''Neil has become a bit overrated.[/quote]

Firstly, whatever system you play the players have to be motivated and really desire to win. Too many times this season the players have turned their collective noses up at the Championship. This season reminds me of the one after Worthy''s relegation. The Board let the rot set in, he wasn''t sacked until the season after, things went from bad to worse thereafter culminating in relegation to the third tier for the first time in 49 years - something I will never, ever forgive Delia and Wynnie for.

In the Championship, City shouldn''t need 2 defensive midfielders. What they really need is a good, solid pair of full-backs (Drury & Edworthy) who stay in their full-back positions so that the centre-backs don''t get pulled all over the shop. We should be going 4-1-4-1 away and 4-1-3-2 at home. This malarkey with the full-backs bombing forward should be ended. End of.

You can set out to win a game 1-0 (George Graham) but you cannot set out to win games 5-4 (Alex Neil, Ian Holloway, etc).

[SwindonCanary 455]

Exactly, It''s not the system or formation we play, what we really need is someone to get into the players heads and convince them they are winners