stick it up your a*** Delia!

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="Len"][quote user="Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB"]Saved our club....really.....that old bucket of horse shit being wheeled out again?.......[/quote]The club was much nearer bankruptcy in 2009 than it was in 1995. A bit of debt renegotiation and injecting a relatively small amount of capital was all that was needed in the mid 90s. I think some fans like to tell whatever story fits their own beliefs when it comes to how bad the situation was after Chase left.[/quote]

We''re differing because of this.

[Len 74]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Len"][quote user="Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB"]Saved our club....really.....that old bucket of horse shit being wheeled out again?.......[/quote]The club was much nearer bankruptcy in 2009 than it was in 1995. A bit of debt renegotiation and injecting a relatively small amount of capital was all that was needed in the mid 90s. I think some fans like to tell whatever story fits their own beliefs when it comes to how bad the situation was after Chase left.[/quote]

We''re differing because of this.

[/quote]I''m not sure whether I agree that we''re differing. I''m truly stumped.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

[quote user="Len"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Len"][quote user="Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB"]Saved our club....really.....that old bucket of horse shit being wheeled out again?.......[/quote]The club was much nearer bankruptcy in 2009 than it was in 1995. A bit of debt renegotiation and injecting a relatively small amount of capital was all that was needed in the mid 90s. I think some fans like to tell whatever story fits their own beliefs when it comes to how bad the situation was after Chase left.[/quote]

We''re differing because of this.

[/quote]I''m not sure whether I agree that we''re differing. I''m truly stumped.[/quote]

I think you must be playing me Len.

"The day we clinched

the AT & T deal we felt a great sense of relief," admits Lockwood .

"The supporters will never know what a difficult position this club was

in."

 Just a shame you weren''t around at the time buddy[Y]

[BarclayWazza 91]

[quote user="Jamie Witherspoon"]The "fans" who turn on the owners because they don''t like the way the results are going are the ones embarrassing themselves.

I am serenely suggesting you see the bigger picture.

As supporters and fans, we deserve nothing. We give our support through thick and thin.

If you don''t want to go any more, don''t renew your season ticket. Stop buying your casual tickets.

If you don''t go, then you contribute nothing. Football costs money. Listening to the wireless every Saturday makes you a leech, and if you don''t put in then you don''t get a say in how things unfold.

Too many kiddies on here who think their opinion matters. It doesn''t. You don''t. Man up. Do something, or shut the hell up.[/quote]

I dont think I''ve read such utter nonsense. The fans arent turning on the owners because of the results, we''re turning on the manager for that. We''re turning on Delia because shes using the club as her toy, refusing any investment and choosing to stick by an outdated ownership model. Partially because of her own stubborn views, partly because it suits her.

I guess as owner its her perogative to do what she wants however as she stated herself, she and MWJ are custodians of the club and she does have a responsibility that goes with that. As a supporter who spends the best part of a grand a year supporting Norwich, I would like to think my opinion matters. In fact, take football out of the equation and lets look at this with us as "customers" - a business who doesnt the value the opinion of customers isnt going to go very far.

You are part of the problem at this club. Too many supporters handing over wads of cash, grateful with whatever gets served up on a saturday afternoon, clapping on 90 minutes and moving on to the next disappointment, which you''ll be grateful to have been a part of. Repeat ad infinitum.

No-one gets held to account at this club. Managers get much longer than they should because people like you shout down any dissenters, telling us we should be happy with our lot. I''ll bet in League One yoj were justbhappy to be there as well, eternally grateful.

[xxxx 0]

Maybe that''s just what is happening . Would explain why he must stay at all costs .

[Donkey dangler 0]

[quote user="Len"][quote user="Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB"]Saved our club....really.....that old bucket of horse shit being wheeled out again?.......[/quote]The club was much nearer bankruptcy in 2009 than it was in 1995. A bit of debt renegotiation and injecting a relatively small amount of capital was all that was needed in the mid 90s. I think some fans like to tell whatever story fits their own beliefs when it comes to how bad the situation was after Chase left.[/quote]

Good job we had Mr. Bowkett to negotiate with Axa (re the Loan Notes) and the bank.

[Len 74]

[quote user="Donkey dangler"][quote user="Len"][quote user="Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB"]Saved our club....really.....that old bucket of horse shit being wheeled out again?.......[/quote]The club was much nearer bankruptcy in 2009 than it was in 1995. A bit of debt renegotiation and injecting a relatively small amount of capital was all that was needed in the mid 90s. I think some fans like to tell whatever story fits their own beliefs when it comes to how bad the situation was after Chase left.[/quote]

Good job we had Mr. Bowkett to negotiate with Axa (re the Loan Notes) and the bank.[/quote]There are more details, including some interesting quotes from Bowkett, at the link below.One difference is that we had players to sell in 1996, not so in 2009 due to our team being chock full of loanees! From memory we relied a bit more on our youth system than in 2009 to help save money. Also in 2009 it was much harder to renegotiate finance in the aftermath of the World economic collapse the previous year.[url=http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/norwich-citys-remarkable-transformation.html]http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/norwich-citys-remarkable-transformation.html[/url]

[nutty nigel 7,533]

You still banging that drum Len?

You know the biggest difference between 2009 and 1996 was the owners sticking around to sort things out where as Chase didn''t really seem to give two hoots. Which resulted in this happening.

Despite his customary public

reticence, the essentially shy Lockwood can hardly be accused of taking the

easy option by soldiering on as the club''s acting chairman since Chase''s

controversial decade at the helm ended in May with the Canaries some £7million

in debt. Neither, it would seem, was the task of refinancing a club on the edge

of oblivion made any easier by the queue of colourful outsiders jostling to get

a piece of the action.

"One of the biggest

problems in sorting out the finances was that there were so many people running

around professing to represent Norwich City that our name was dragged around

every lending institution in London," recalls Lockwood. "One local

company had four different approaches. All said they were acting for Norwich

City, but all were acting in their own interests and it made our lives doubly

difficult."

Were we anywhere near to that in 2009?

[Len 74]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]You still banging that drum Len?

You know the biggest difference between 2009 and 1996 was the owners sticking around to sort things out where as Chase didn''t really seem to give two hoots. Which resulted in this happening.

Despite his customary public

reticence, the essentially shy Lockwood can hardly be accused of taking the

easy option by soldiering on as the club''s acting chairman since Chase''s

controversial decade at the helm ended in May with the Canaries some £7million

in debt. Neither, it would seem, was the task of refinancing a club on the edge

of oblivion made any easier by the queue of colourful outsiders jostling to get

a piece of the action.

"One of the biggest

problems in sorting out the finances was that there were so many people running

around professing to represent Norwich City that our name was dragged around

every lending institution in London," recalls Lockwood. "One local

company had four different approaches. All said they were acting for Norwich

City, but all were acting in their own interests and it made our lives doubly

difficult."

Were we anywhere near to that in 2009?

[/quote]I''m not sure if you''re trying to imply that I was party to ''representing'' the club back in 1996? I can assure you that that''s not the case.Here are some quotes from the Swiss Ramble article.....-- The worries over Norwich’s funding issues led to auditors Grant Thornton inserting the dreaded “Emphasis of Matter” statement in the delayed 2009 accounts, warning of “the existence of an uncertainty which may cast doubt about the company’s ability to continue as a going concern.” ---- Despite denials at the time, it is now evident that there was a strong risk of the club going out of business in January 2010 with chief executive David McNally warning, “Clearly the financial challenges that we’re having to face up to are real.” Indeed, at the 2011 Annual General Meeting, the chairman Alan Bowkett admitted, “We couldn’t afford to pay our interest and we couldn’t afford to pay the amortisation owing on the loans on time.” Norwich City could easily have fallen into administration if they had not managed to persuade the banks to temporarily suspend repayments of interest and capital. ---- Most recently, the £2.1 million of funds received from the sale of some more land adjoining the stadium to a housing association in November 2010 were used to reduce the club’s borrowing. This was an important part of the financial restructuring agreed with the two main lenders that extended their repayment schedule: AXA’s hefty loan to May 2022; the Bank of Scotland’s £1.5 million overdraft facility to August 2011 and bank loans to October 2013. According to chairman Alan Bowkett, this move left “the long-term future of the club much more secure”, but he was less circumspect at the club’s AGM, admitting that without the rescheduling, “We would not be standing here today.” --The debt in 2009 was over £20m, with the loan notes accounting for over £10m. From the Bowkett''s own mouth we were close to going under and would have probably had to sell Carrow Road if the bank and loan note debt couldn''t be renegotiated.Credit was very tight in 2009 and we''re lucky that we''re not having to pay rent to occupy Carrow Road.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

I''m not implying anything about you Len. How am I supposed to know who you are?

It''s not luck that we weren''t paying rent on our ground. It''s the difference between our club and the club down the a140. Or would you consider them unlucky?

[Len 74]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]I''m not implying anything about you Len. How am I supposed to know who you are?[/quote]You implied this when you said.....[quote user="nutty nigel"]"The day we clinched

the AT & T deal we felt a great sense of relief," admits Lockwood .

"The supporters will never know what a difficult position this club was

in."

Just a shame you weren''t around at the time buddy[Y][/quote]What makes you think I wasn''t around? I would have been in Norwich in 1996.I''m just hoping that the club can at least survive relatively intact in future. Both periods discussed were quite distressing. I''m frightened that we''ve spent a lot of money on fees and wages with not a lot to show for it, and that this might see us take on more debt (not good).

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="Len"][quote user="nutty nigel"]You still banging that drum Len?

You know the biggest difference between 2009 and 1996 was the owners sticking around to sort things out where as Chase didn''t really seem to give two hoots. Which resulted in this happening.

Despite his customary public

reticence, the essentially shy Lockwood can hardly be accused of taking the

easy option by soldiering on as the club''s acting chairman since Chase''s

controversial decade at the helm ended in May with the Canaries some £7million

in debt. Neither, it would seem, was the task of refinancing a club on the edge

of oblivion made any easier by the queue of colourful outsiders jostling to get

a piece of the action.

"One of the biggest

problems in sorting out the finances was that there were so many people running

around professing to represent Norwich City that our name was dragged around

every lending institution in London," recalls Lockwood. "One local

company had four different approaches. All said they were acting for Norwich

City, but all were acting in their own interests and it made our lives doubly

difficult."

Were we anywhere near to that in 2009?

[/quote]I''m not sure if you''re trying to imply that I was party to ''representing'' the club back in 1996? I can assure you that that''s not the case.Here are some quotes from the Swiss Ramble article.....-- The worries over Norwich’s funding issues led to auditors Grant Thornton inserting the dreaded “Emphasis of Matter” statement in the delayed 2009 accounts, warning of “the existence of an uncertainty which may cast doubt about the company’s ability to continue as a going concern.” ---- Despite denials at the time, it is now evident that there was a strong risk of the club going out of business in January 2010 with chief executive David McNally warning, “Clearly the financial challenges that we’re having to face up to are real.” Indeed, at the 2011 Annual General Meeting, the chairman Alan Bowkett admitted, “We couldn’t afford to pay our interest and we couldn’t afford to pay the amortisation owing on the loans on time.” Norwich City could easily have fallen into administration if they had not managed to persuade the banks to temporarily suspend repayments of interest and capital. ---- Most recently, the £2.1 million of funds received from the sale of some more land adjoining the stadium to a housing association in November 2010 were used to reduce the club’s borrowing. This was an important part of the financial restructuring agreed with the two main lenders that extended their repayment schedule: AXA’s hefty loan to May 2022; the Bank of Scotland’s £1.5 million overdraft facility to August 2011 and bank loans to October 2013. According to chairman Alan Bowkett, this move left “the long-term future of the club much more secure”, but he was less circumspect at the club’s AGM, admitting that without the rescheduling, “We would not be standing here today.” --The debt in 2009 was over £20m, with the loan notes accounting for over £10m. From the Bowkett''s own mouth we were close to going under and would have probably had to sell Carrow Road if the bank and loan note debt couldn''t be renegotiated.Credit was very tight in 2009 and we''re lucky that we''re not having to pay rent to occupy Carrow Road.[/quote]Those quotes are not as significant as you seem to think in terms of  trying to portray the 2009 crisis as worse than that induced by Chase.  If the Swiss Ramble had been around back in 1996 then his analysis would easily have been as apocalyptic and quite possibly even more so.Of course in 2009 there was a real danger at least of administration without a restructuring/immediate action, but then that was true  for the Chase crisis. I repeat what I posted earlier - the fact that our main lender was willing to put the debt repayment back to 2022 (as mentioned by the Swiss Ramble) indicates that underlying financial position was deemed reasonably sound. In contrast to the fire sale Chase had to instigate.And, again to repeat, the Chase crisis was largely self-inflicted, with the club spending money it didn''t have while running on short-term high interest loans, while the 2009 crisis was mainly caused by the forced rebuilding of the South Stand, with the total cost - of long-term loans - falling on the club.

[Nuff Said 5,137]

So what should Delia and MWJ do?

My impression seems to be that people want her to sell out to a wealthy new owner.Like Tony Xia at Villa.

And get a manager in with a proven reputation. Like Steve Bruce.

And spend lots of money on players. Like Ross McCormack.

And when it doesn''t work, in fact results in worse performance than impoverished Delia''s Norwich? What then?

Sell the club to someone local, a genuine supporter perhaps?

[king canary 7,605]

@nuff said

Or perhaps sell to a wealthy new owner like Marcus Liebherr and his family.

And get a manager like Koeman or Pochettino.

And spend loads of money on players like Van Dijks and Gabbiadini.

I''m not saying it''s the right thing to do but it''s pretty simplistic to pick someone like Xia as if he''s the norm.

[Nuff Said 5,137]

Equally, it''s simplistic to argue that we stuck and didn''t get promoted, so twisting will fix things. We played the hand we had and lost this season. Despite the apparent expectations of some in here, it happens. There are no guarantees in football, otherwise the league would simply be a table of club wealth.

[king canary 7,605]

No, but if I''m honest I''d expect Villa to be better equipped for a promotion push next season than most in this division.

The unhappy fact is that we''ll soon struggle to compete financially with a number of club

[king canary 7,605]

Hit post too early...

The unhappy fact is soon we''ll struggle to compete financially with an increasing number of clubs at this level let alone Premier League if the current ownership model persists.

[Len 74]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]And, again to repeat, the Chase crisis was largely self-inflicted, with the club spending money it didn''t have while running on short-term high interest loans, while the 2009 crisis was mainly caused by the forced rebuilding of the South Stand, with the total cost - of long-term loans - falling on the club.[/quote]Chase expanded a bit too quickly, for example building Colney, and hadn''t arranged long term finance.Under Wynn-Jones we went in the opposite direction, avoiding doing the main thing that Chase was criticised for ie selling our best players. Instead of selling to balance the books he (and Delia) underwrote the losses.One fatal error was not making any money from promotion in the mid 2000s, a mistake they were bound not to repeat with promotion under Lambert (ironically with a team of odds & sods that Chase would have been proud of).As soon as the debt had been repaid Wynn-Jones and the board reverted to type.

[Nuff Said 5,137]

KC, you say we will struggle to "compete financially " and obviously that''s true. But as I said, it isn''t all about money, so we have to be smarter than other clubs who have more resources. It could be argued that the recruitment of players like Maddison and Pritchard (and perhaps Canos ) is an example of that, along with the Cat 1 academy. The board appear to see Neil as a manager for the long-term rather than an instant boost, although they now look pretty isolated in that opinion.

[simmo_2 6]

[quote user="Nuff Said"]So what should Delia and MWJ do?

My impression seems to be that people want her to sell out to a wealthy new owner.Like Tony Xia at Villa.

And get a manager in with a proven reputation. Like Steve Bruce.

And spend lots of money on players. Like Ross McCormack.

And when it doesn''t work, in fact results in worse performance than impoverished Delia''s Norwich? What then?

Sell the club to someone local, a genuine supporter perhaps?[/quote]

The way things are going Villa will finish above us this season and next.

If NCFC dont get the proper investment needed in this era, there will be 20+ teams who have invested, and them teams will be in the premiership and championship.

I fear NCFC will become a 3rd tier club and the fan base will half without investment.

IMO the youth policy is not working and I cant see any footballers with a winning mentality coming through. The Murphy brothers will end up with similar careers to the Jarvis brothers. They are just to hit and miss

[king canary 7,605]

@nuff said

Sure, you can argue it. I''d say the facts don''t really back it up though.

Firstly the decision to keep the core of the squad that went down suggests a pretty short term ''promotion now'' outlook.

Secondly the transfers. I don''t see spending £8m on a player that we don''t need (Pritchard) as being more intelligent. I''ve seen it argued that he''s the long term replacement for Wes which begs two questions - what is Maddison for and where are the long term replacements for our aging centre half''s? It is only a smart strategy to buy young players as depth/future if it doesn''t stop you from improving other areas that need it more.

[Len 74]

[quote user="king canary"]@nuff said

Sure, you can argue it. I''d say the facts don''t really back it up though.

Firstly the decision to keep the core of the squad that went down suggests a pretty short term ''promotion now'' outlook.

Secondly the transfers. I don''t see spending £8m on a player that we don''t need (Pritchard) as being more intelligent. I''ve seen it argued that he''s the long term replacement for Wes which begs two questions - what is Maddison for and where are the long term replacements for our aging centre half''s? It is only a smart strategy to buy young players as depth/future if it doesn''t stop you from improving other areas that need it more.[/quote]Good points. A case of trying to do two opposing things at once but ending up succeeding in neither. We should have had a clear out (especially in defence) this season, so that we had a fair chance of going up next season or the season after.One obstacle was paying off the deadwood to leave early. But if not doing this postpones promotion by several extra years then it''s a false economy. Better to confront a painful problem head on than bury one''s head in the sand.

[Donkey dangler 0]

[quote user="Len"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]And, again to repeat, the Chase crisis was largely self-inflicted, with the club spending money it didn''t have while running on short-term high interest loans, while the 2009 crisis was mainly caused by the forced rebuilding of the South Stand, with the total cost - of long-term loans - falling on the club.[/quote]Chase expanded a bit too quickly, for example building Colney, and hadn''t arranged long term finance.Under Wynn-Jones we went in the opposite direction, avoiding doing the main thing that Chase was criticised for ie selling our best players. Instead of selling to balance the books he (and Delia) underwrote the losses.One fatal error was not making any money from promotion in the mid 2000s, a mistake they were bound not to repeat with promotion under Lambert (ironically with a team of odds & sods that Chase would have been proud of).As soon as the debt had been repaid Wynn-Jones and the board reverted to type.[/quote]

The big mistake was not giving Worthy the money to buy Ashton before the season started and instead the construction of the Community stand was started.

[Donkey dangler 0]

Maddison is the long term replacement of Dorrans and as the ball player he will play alongside the ball winner, who is currently Tetty. His long term replacement is Thompson.

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="Jamie Witherspoon"]Why anybody would put millions of pounds of their own money to prop up a football club- not a business ever likely to show any return on investment - and for their only reward to be week in week abuse from binners and keyboard warrior scrotes who struggle to pay their own rent each month - well, it''s beyond me.

The woman''s a saint. Treat her with respect please.[/quote]

They wanted to do it because they don''t have any children to invest in and this is what they wanted to do with their money instead.

They admitted early on they never expected to get their money back so they have actually done a lot better than they thought given the rise in the value of their shares and the club being debt-free.

Abuse from supporters is par for the course when owning a football club - they must have known what they were getting into - especially after the treatment meted out to Chase. Moreover City fans are comparatively placid compared to some clubs in the Midlands and North-East.

Delia is deeply flawed as a football club owner and should get out of it. Saints and football do not go together. In fact it is a handicap because there are times where you have to be nasty.

[im spartacus canary 0]

Seeing this thread title still making me chuckle 5 days later 😅

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="komakino"]Bowkett was a bigger loss than McNally, as he sorted out the finances and had the self respect to stand up to the board when required unlike some others. He became and lone voice against the dictatorship, which meant he had no alternative but to resign as he in effect had no influence on events.

Secondly, the myth that ''Delia saved the club'' keeps cropping up on here. Some posters know that this is completely false, but some still buy into the myth.

She did no such thing. The nearest to anyone saving the club was Geoffrey Watling, so this Delia no sense must be put to bed.[/quote]

Absolutely correct. The saviours included Geoffrey Watling, Martin Armstrong, Barry Lockwood, Gordon Bennett in the Spring of 1996. The actual transaction that "saved" the club was the purchase of Chase''s shares by Watling. Too many posters on here are under the illusion that Delia succeeded Chase and forget about the interregnum period in between that involved these important actors.

[TIL 1010 4,745]

Now that Tangy has reinvented himself as Donkey dangler maybe we will at last find out how much Watling walleted. [:P]

[king canary 7,605]

Yes, great, lets revive an ancient and boring argument

[Donkey dangler 0]

May be its the reference to Auntie''s posterior that''s done it!