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Barndoor

Defence

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Can someone tell me where the hell klose and pinto were yesterday.

Pinto was the worst player on the pitch and did so well on the second goal.

As for the first where the hell was tim he was still walking in to the box.

But let''s put all the blame on Russ and Whitts. #scapegoats

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[quote user="Barndoor"]Can someone tell me where the hell klose and pinto were yesterday.

Pinto was the worst player on the pitch and did so well on the second goal.

As for the first where the hell was tim he was still walking in to the box.

But let''s put all the blame on Russ and Whitts. #scapegoats[/quote]Where have you seen people scapegoating Russ and Whitts?

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Yes Whittaker was at fault.But the bigger issue is why we ended up in the situation of him having to do a job there.All very avoidable.

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[quote user="Barndoor"]Can someone tell me where the hell klose and pinto were yesterday.

Pinto was the worst player on the pitch and did so well on the second goal.

As for the first where the hell was tim he was still walking in to the box.

But let''s put all the blame on Russ and Whitts. #scapegoats[/quote]

The first goal was more to do with Howson not closing down the winger - he ran back to cover but he ran back to a position too far away from the winger to be able to stop him from crossing, when a more positive closing down might have prevented the cross. Having said that, you would think that Martin could have been a bit tighter to the goalscorer, who basically had a tap in. Klose was actually positioned reasonably ok imo.

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[quote user="king canary"]Yes.

However I do get tired of people shouting ''scapegoat'' on here for legitimate criticism of poor performance.[/quote]I haven''t actually seen anyone scapegoating Russ or Whitts....

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No I haven''t either. That is my point.

If a player plays poorly, especially if they play poorly on a consistent basis, fans are well within their rights to criticise them. However there are a few posters on here who will try and shut down any criticism by accusing people of ''scapegoating players.'' As the OP clearly shows.

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Ridiculous to suggest Howson was at fault, he did his job and push the player out wide, we should have handled the ball into the box better. It was slow and predictable, only one Rotherham player attacked at the far post, it should have been childs play to defend it. Simply marking the opposition would be a good start. No one took responsibility, you could here a pin drop in our defence, personally I feel Ruddy and Pinto should have done better.

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Nobody is defending well in that team.

It''s gone backward since the Whittaker Martin Bassong Olsson back 4 that we got promoted with. And many people had their doubts over all of those players back then.

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It''s not about individuals, he has played just about every combination with the same result. Something is fundamentally wrong with his defensive philosophy.

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As Morty said, it''s a joke that we have Whitts playing left back in the first place. The club is an absolute shambles.

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[quote user="Ginja"]
Ridiculous to suggest Howson was at fault, he did his job and push the player out wide, we should have handled the ball into the box better. It was slow and predictable, only one Rotherham player attacked at the far post, it should have been childs play to defend it. Simply marking the opposition would be a good start. No one took responsibility, you could here a pin drop in our defence, personally I feel Ruddy and Pinto should have done better.
[/quote]Indeed.A poorly formed opinion, based on watching a grainy stream.

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I thought Howson could have done a lot better tbh.

And Whittaker on the 2nd. Which was much like Martin getting beat for Southampton''s 2nd. Just not good enough.

Frankly, we miss someone like Michael Turner who had presence and desire to attack the ball.

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[quote user="Ginja"]
Ridiculous to suggest Howson was at fault, he did his job and push the player out wide.
[/quote]

Sorry?  Pushed him wide?  Take another look (30 secs in) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sanaJewWwmoHowson runs back into no-mans land, neither stopping the cross, nor-closing the man down.  No urgency in him, nor the rest of the defence for that matter.

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"]A poorly formed opinion, based on watching a grainy stream.[/quote]

Oh, get a life. It''s on the NCFC youtube channel in full techicolour. Take a look. Howson runs nicely into no mans land.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sanaJewWwmo

[/quote]No reasoned opinion can be accurately formed without actually being at the match. Cameras follow the ball.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"]A poorly formed opinion, based on watching a grainy stream.[/quote]

Oh, get a life. It''s on the NCFC youtube channel in full techicolour. Take a look. Howson runs nicely into no mans land.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sanaJewWwmo[/quote]No reasoned opinion can be accurately formed without actually being at the match. Cameras follow the ball.[/quote]

Why don''t you comment on the footballing point for a change?  Take a look, the camera doesn''t lie.

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Not interested in forming any kind of opinion based on a few minutes highlights on youtube.They give no context as to what happens before specific incidents.But I really don''t need to even look to know that our defence is the issue, not Jonny Howson.

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[quote user="morty"]Not interested in forming any kind of opinion based on a few minutes highlights on youtube.They give no context as to what happens before specific incidents.But I really don''t need to even look to know that our defence is the issue, not Jonny Howson.[/quote]

Lol.  It s a specific point about how to stop a cross coming in.  Anything to do with the rest of the

match or anything else that happened before or after the incident is

irelevant.   Running

into a no mans land will not do it.

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The basic issue we seem to have (and have had for far too long) is we are incredibly vulnerable to the simple ball in the space between the full back and the centre back.

This problem stems from the fact we ask our full backs to do an awful lot of attacking, without a proper defensive midfielder to help cover.

In an ideal world you want Tettey dropping back in between Klose and Martin letting them split out wider to create a back three when our fullbacks attack. However Tettey is not positionally disciplined enough to do this and is too keen to follow the ball around. This means teams find loads of space next to our centre backs and can then pull them out of position, leaving space in the middle for onrushing strikers/midfielders.

Pinto and Olsson can sometimes get away with it due to their pace allowing them to get back and cover. The problem is only exacerbated when you have slower players (Martin or Whittaker) playing the fullback position who can''t get back to cover.

Neil should have spotted this and either changed tactics or invested in the summer to bring in that disciplined defensive midfielder to allow this system to work. He''s done neither.

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[quote user="king canary"]The basic issue we seem to have (and have had for far too long) is we are incredibly vulnerable to the simple ball in the space between the full back and the centre back.

This problem stems from the fact we ask our full backs to do an awful lot of attacking, without a proper defensive midfielder to help cover.

In an ideal world you want Tettey dropping back in between Klose and Martin letting them split out wider to create a back three when our fullbacks attack. However Tettey is not positionally disciplined enough to do this and is too keen to follow the ball around. This means teams find loads of space next to our centre backs and can then pull them out of position, leaving space in the middle for onrushing strikers/midfielders.

Pinto and Olsson can sometimes get away with it due to their pace allowing them to get back and cover. The problem is only exacerbated when you have slower players (Martin or Whittaker) playing the fullback position who can''t get back to cover.

Neil should have spotted this and either changed tactics or invested in the summer to bring in that disciplined defensive midfielder to allow this system to work. He''s done neither.[/quote]Agree with this.Whittaker was never going to be able to play the same role as Olsson does.

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Exactly

The issue with the way this squad is put together is that we have two or three key players without ''like for like'' backups. For instance neither Martin or Whittaker have the pace to play the right back role the way we ask Pinto to.

Now it can be considered unlucky that our first and second choice left backs are out. However we knew Brady was suspended and also potentially leaving but still sent Toffolo, a much more natural fit, back out on loan. Poor squad management again.

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[quote user="king canary"]Exactly

The issue with the way this squad is put together is that we have two or three key players without ''like for like'' backups. For instance neither Martin or Whittaker have the pace to play the right back role the way we ask Pinto to.

Now it can be considered unlucky that our first and second choice left backs are out. However we knew Brady was suspended and also potentially leaving but still sent Toffolo, a much more natural fit, back out on loan. Poor squad management again.[/quote]Yeah have said this on other threads.I know the squad is unbalanced, and that it will likely take a few windows to sort out, but I find the decision about Toffolo very odd. Especially when he was actually back at the club. They should have delayed the decision to loan him back out as soon as they knew about Olsson possibly leaving.Baffling.

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[quote user="king canary"]The basic issue we seem to have (and have had for far too long) is we are incredibly vulnerable to the simple ball in the space between the full back and the centre back.

This problem stems from the fact we ask our full backs to do an awful lot of attacking, without a proper defensive midfielder to help cover.

In an ideal world you want Tettey dropping back in between Klose and Martin letting them split out wider to create a back three when our fullbacks attack. However Tettey is not positionally disciplined enough to do this and is too keen to follow the ball around. This means teams find loads of space next to our centre backs and can then pull them out of position, leaving space in the middle for onrushing strikers/midfielders.

Pinto and Olsson can sometimes get away with it due to their pace allowing them to get back and cover. The problem is only exacerbated when you have slower players (Martin or Whittaker) playing the fullback position who can''t get back to cover.

Neil should have spotted this and either changed tactics or invested in the summer to bring in that disciplined defensive midfielder to allow this system to work. He''s done neither.[/quote] Your last sentence isn''t entirely true; I can think of at least three recent occasions when something manifestly had been done to address the weakness, each time rewarded by an improved defensive performance and points -- Forest (A), Villa (H) and Derby (H). To these one could add the P/O final with it''s exemplary disciplined performance. What this says to me is (1) that AN is perfectly well aware of what is needed to address the weakness (within the limits of the resources available to him), and (2) if he explicitly prioritises that in his team preparation for a match and (3) the players stick to the script, the otherwise open door to our goal is effectively shut.
Which raises the question of how you explain the failure to ensure the door is kept shut every match.

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Assume they don''t think Toffolo is good enough for this level.

But from Toffolo''s own point of view he needs to earn a contract somewhere. He''s more likely to do that out on loan than being second fiddle here.

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[quote user="GJP"]Assume they don''t think Toffolo is good enough for this level.

But from Toffolo''s own point of view he needs to earn a contract somewhere. He''s more likely to do that out on loan than being second fiddle here.[/quote]I would suggest though that Toffolo could have been a better option than playing another player out of position.I guess we''ll never know now though.I would have at least delayed him going back on loan, till we had a solution.

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Howson covered the space but far from full pace,. With that extra could and should have put pressure on their player. Any player flailing a flaccid leg again cross like that has to ask themselves questions Far more, but not solely, culpable than Whittaker. Whittakers frustration at the goal was justified. And howson is one of our leaders and some time captain

The whole goal sums up our season,. Sloppy loss of possession in midfield, space behind fb exploited, uncommitted half heartedclosing down from covering midfielder CBs out of position for the cross. You can put any number of namesmin the frame, yesterday''s was Wes, whit and howson.

Likewise the second. It was like we have equalised so we will go on to win. So switch off again.

The manager is a problem, but the players are as much of an issue.

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