Perspective.

[morty 0]

[quote user="canarydan23"]@morty

Jumping back a page or two, I think I''ve found some common ground...

"If we spend, say 20 million, and every other team around us spends, say 40 million, does that shine a different light on things?"

If that was the case, I would look at things from an entirely different perspective. We would be relatively low-resourced and funded and therefore you could not justify any serious expectation to compete. It is why when we are in the Premier League, we are satisfied with anything above 17th and why the European qualification places are just a pipe-dream; because for every £20 million we spend, there are a dozen clubs spending £40 million plus.

However, in the context of the Championship, we are the £40 million spender. I''ve not done the maths, but I would wager heavily that other than Aston Villa and Newcastle (maybe not even Aston Villa), no one has spent more on players than we have in the last three years. I would also wager than no one other than those two have as hefty a wage budget.

Therefore from that perspective, the expectation that we should be doing far, far, far better than we currently are is entirely justified.[/quote]Yes technically we should be able to outspend a lot of other Championship clubs. But we find ourselves in the situation that we have a very imbalanced squad in terms of ability, age, and in varying stages of contract. Not forgetting that we started off with virtually the same side that was relegated, minus one of the few bright sparks from last season, Redmond. We have bought players for the future that aren''t quite ready yet, and we have had a few youth players come through, and maybe done better than expected.I have talked a lot about the general mental toughness of the squad, and that is holding us back too.I think we have also been a bit unlucky with a few key injuries, especially in midfield.That said, I wouldn''t underestimate the financial clout of some of the other Championship clubs, Brighton, for example have put themselves in debt to the tune of 30 million, in the last two seasons, to assemble their squad.Yes, I understand the expectation, but if you look at things a bit deeper, then there are mitigations other than arriving at "Delia out, Alex Neil out, or Jez Moxey out".

[Midlands Yellow 3,975]

Feel better now about our league position . Top in September and a consolidating 12th place at present . Apart from Newcastle you wouldn''t be interested in many swaps player for player .

People go nuts after each defeat , calm down by Sunday and some even defend the whole mess come Monday . Let''s hope Lambert is doing his thumbs up routine at 4.50 Saturday to finally wake the crowd to implore the first head .

[Mike 2]

Ah the standard response. I think and have heard from reliable sources including those in the media and ex players that he wanted to strengthen the squad to stay in the premiership but was not backed. My sources include a City legend. But feel free to call me a fraud.

I''m just tellling you want I know.

[deltic31 13]

Perspective??

Have you been watching the dross that we have been subjected to this season?

We were promised promotion, promotion, promotion, but the board and the manager have failed to deliver!

Don''t try to tell me that we can still make the playoffs. Neil hasn''t a clue. The players realise this and that is why they don''t play for him.

If and when the board see sense and get rid of him they need to invest in a manager who has relevant experience (I don''t hold out too much hope based on past experience).

Us fans have been let down big time! How can we not feel angry given the potential that this team has and the fact that we have parachute payments to help balance the loss in income for the Prem.

If you can sit back and say things are not too bad then that''s your opinion but I for one am thoroughly disillusioned with the players the manager and our board!

[Salford 0]

As someone correctly pointed out earlier, perspective means nothing without context. I could sit here and say I''m still learning how to use the toilet. That would be alright if I was two years old, but sitting in wet pants in your thirties isn''t such a good idea.

Where we were 30, 40, 50 years ago doesn''t matter so much now. What''s important is learning from the past and using it to make decisions in the present that will have a positive impact on your future. At the moment, I''m not sure our club is doing that.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Salford"]As someone correctly pointed out earlier, perspective means nothing without context. I could sit here and say I''m still learning how to use the toilet. That would be alright if I was two years old, but sitting in wet pants in your thirties isn''t such a good idea.

Where we were 30, 40, 50 years ago doesn''t matter so much now. What''s important is learning from the past and using it to make decisions in the present that will have a positive impact on your future. At the moment, I''m not sure our club is doing that.[/quote]

Would agree with most of that, but the main lesson of the past - at least since the premier league started - is that you must live within your means or you will face mounting debt with the real risk of bancruptcy and administration.  The reality of that is what Delia has by hook or by crook dealt with and we have come through it to the point where we are a healthy club with the ability to sustain our own future. What that future is no-one knows - we have been punching above our weight for years and will in all probability continue to do so - but it is not certain that we will do that.  Investement and a rich owner will not change that uncertainty one bit.  It might encourage us to think that we might do well and be able to sustain a PL challenge - but ask QPR, or any of the other clubs who have way more money than us that are not able to sustain  that challenge, whether it worked for them. If we are talking about lessons of the past, imo the main lesson is - if you get in the PL, don''t spend big too much to try and stay there - it isn''t worth the effort.  If you do get there, treat it as an adventure, give it everything you''ve got with the players you''ve got, or with minimum outlay - and if you then go back down again you still have the benefit of the huge money you have made there to keep your challenge in the championship such that you can always be challenging again.  In other words embrace the reality - live the yo yo club dream.  That is the perspective.  I dreamt of challenging the top ten in the PL given a three or four year run in the top flight, but reality has set in for me - it isn''t going to happen.  If we get promoted again, no doubt I will dream of that again, but the reality is there for all to see.  We don''t have the resources. Even if we did, then so have about thirty other clubs. Things will never be how we want them - but we can enjoy trying........from living wthin our means. It''s no disgrace, in fact it''s quite the opposite. 

[Tumbleweed 106]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Always comparing yourself to someone worse off is, in my view, self-corroboration and an enemy of ambition.

2. We as supporters do what we can with financial support through STs and merchandise, often travelling hundreds of miles and spending our time and energy in doing our bit. We don''t have legal rights, but we do have moral rights to expect that those with decision making powers do their bit as well, and that includes making tough choices and doing whatever they can to make the most of what we have. I don''t feel that that is happening. I think the management team are unfocussed, out of touch, paralysed by indecision and let emotion outweigh sense. I don''t see much reciprocity between supporters and club at the moment. All I want is to feel that we are ALL- club staff, players, coaches and supporters- doing everything we can to succeed. We won''t be a Top 6 PL side, but we could have consolidated ourselves nicely in the middle tier of that league. We had pretty much everything in place, twice, but it is being frittered away. And we know how long a club can languish at this level eventually becoming indistinguishable from all the others.

Just my perspective.

[BroadstairsR 2,162]

Good post.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]A couple of thoughts:

1. Always comparing yourself to someone worse off is, in my view, self-corroboration and an enemy of ambition.

2. We as supporters do what we can with financial support through STs and merchandise, often travelling hundreds of miles and spending our time and energy in doing our bit. We don''t have legal rights, but we do have moral rights to expect that those with decision making powers do their bit as well, and that includes making tough choices and doing whatever they can to make the most of what we have. I don''t feel that that is happening. I think the management team are unfocussed, out of touch, paralysed by indecision and let emotion outweigh sense. I don''t see much reciprocity between supporters and club at the moment. All I want is to feel that we are ALL- club staff, players, coaches and supporters- doing everything we can to succeed. We won''t be a Top 6 PL side, but we could have consolidated ourselves nicely in the middle tier of that league. We had pretty much everything in place, twice, but it is being frittered away. And we know how long a club can languish at this level eventually becoming indistinguishable from all the others.

Just my perspective.[/quote]Is it really that easy then?Just do things "right" and, hey presto, we''re established in the Premier league?We had our crack at it, and it was, predictably, difficult, we regroup and we try again.And as much as you may bemoan comparing yourself to people much worse off, Ipswich is a very easy comparison, it terms of perceived size and fanbase. And really a perfect example of not doing things well. However $hit it is just now, we are still punching several weights above them.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]A couple of thoughts:

1. Always comparing yourself to someone worse off is, in my view, self-corroboration and an enemy of ambition.

2. We as supporters do what we can with financial support through STs and merchandise, often travelling hundreds of miles and spending our time and energy in doing our bit. We don''t have legal rights, but we do have moral rights to expect that those with decision making powers do their bit as well, and that includes making tough choices and doing whatever they can to make the most of what we have. I don''t feel that that is happening. I think the management team are unfocussed, out of touch, paralysed by indecision and let emotion outweigh sense. I don''t see much reciprocity between supporters and club at the moment. All I want is to feel that we are ALL- club staff, players, coaches and supporters- doing everything we can to succeed. We won''t be a Top 6 PL side, but we could have consolidated ourselves nicely in the middle tier of that league. We had pretty much everything in place, twice, but it is being frittered away. And we know how long a club can languish at this level eventually becoming indistinguishable from all the others.

Just my perspective.[/quote]Great post [Y]

[TIL 1010 4,738]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]A couple of thoughts:

1. Always comparing yourself to someone worse off is, in my view, self-corroboration and an enemy of ambition.

2. We as supporters do what we can with financial support through STs and merchandise, often travelling hundreds of miles and spending our time and energy in doing our bit. We don''t have legal rights, but we do have moral rights to expect that those with decision making powers do their bit as well, and that includes making tough choices and doing whatever they can to make the most of what we have. I don''t feel that that is happening. I think the management team are unfocussed, out of touch, paralysed by indecision and let emotion outweigh sense. I don''t see much reciprocity between supporters and club at the moment. All I want is to feel that we are ALL- club staff, players, coaches and supporters- doing everything we can to succeed. We won''t be a Top 6 PL side, but we could have consolidated ourselves nicely in the middle tier of that league. We had pretty much everything in place, twice, but it is being frittered away. And we know how long a club can languish at this level eventually becoming indistinguishable from all the others.

Just my perspective.[/quote][Y] Great post.

[Highland Canary 76]

Looking at 1p5wich does indeed provide a salient comparison. Even if we manage to retain our chump status over this season and next - which is by no means guaranteed as we continue our fire sale of playing assets - we are already no longer a debt free club with a significant overdraft at the balance sheet date, and a cash flow forecast set out at the AGM showing further significant net cash outflows. In such circumstances, it will not be possible to retain even the player level of 1p5wich whilst not increasing debt levels further which the board has continually signalled it is unwilling to do. It is therefore not at all clear that we will be anything like as competitive as 1p5wich in seasons to come. Dark days indeed.

[morty 0]

You are unintentionally hilarious Highland, you really are.[:D]

[Tumbleweed 106]

Thx guys.

@morty- no its not that easy. That''s not my point. My point is that I am not convinced that all the right things are being done to maximise our chance of achieving it. An example- signing two good quality defenders in the summer transfer window after promotion. Could have made all the difference. There are never any guarantees but it would be good to feel that we are giving it our best shot, and I don''t feel that we are.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]Thx guys.

@morty- no its not that easy. That''s not my point. My point is that I am not convinced that all the right things are being done to maximise our chance of achieving it. An example- signing two good quality defenders in the summer transfer window after promotion. Could have made all the difference. There are never any guarantees but it would be good to feel that we are giving it our best shot, and I don''t feel that we are.[/quote]The thing is, if you take a step back and look a little deeper, the answers are there.We did try and sign defenders and failed. So its not through lack of trying.

[sonyc 5,511]

I am sure I''ve read that in terms of results over the last 50 years we are ranked 25th ( so just outside of the Championship). That feels (in making sense) about right to me, certainly since our initial foray into the top division ( still takes a lot of beating for me as one of the highlights of my supporting life). Go back another 50 years and we would sit way down the order.

Look at the size of the city and its population and hinterland of potential supporters and we ought to be up there. In terms of our owners wealth comparison didn''t a poster say we are placed 43rd out of the top 44?

The OP is correct in many ways in that we will always deviate from the mean ( and let''s just say 10 league places each way because that is a neat number) but then so is Tumbleweed. What he alludes to is the club leadership and stewardship also being an important factor. Now that may mean being extremely cautious when it comes to foreign investment that potentially asset strips ( lots of sad examples). But the current direction being offered by this Board of directors for most posters here ( and I believe too the OP) is that the current management and coaching regime ( will leave the recruitment element alone) is past its sell-by date. There isn''t the frenzy that I can recall from the Worthy out days, nor the hatred of Roeder, nor the intense frustration around Hughton. Neil seems to be part of and tied up with, a long term strategy where he and the Board are so closely knit. It might all unravel at home this weekend. And paying supporters should hold the Board to account.

So many people are switching off the club because there is little vision ( it seems) and a deteriorating connection between them and the leadership. Perhaps Brexit and the world situation is simply symptomatic of people becoming distant from each other. Then that overall statement is possibly a tad too far. But the point being made is that people do want it all and want it now. Some wise posters here ask for a long term view. That chimes with me albeit I''m getting to the point of being less bothered (decided to stop going now to away matches ...I live a long way away from CR) and less amenable to paying anything. That is not knee jerk, just a fairly rational decision because the club seem blinkered.

I will just have to wait ( it could be 5 years) before the board recycles as well as the team. It is a needless situation and shouldn''t have happened but it has. My only hope is that someone comes along who can freshen up the playing side at least. This season is over in terms of expectaion. I do though hope we can get over the 52 point mark and better so we don''t get pulled into the chasing pack. The bottom 3 or 4 however do look adrift so not worried unlike some on here claiming we are destined for League 1.

Apologies all for long post. I''m actually considering stopping posting but may still read of course. I don''t feel my view is relevant much. Then I guess it never so ( now that IS sound perspective!).

[morty 0]

Please don''t stop posting sonyc, I look forward to, and enjoy, your posts.

[Thisisbabyish 0]

All the cretins threating not to renew are the same ones who moan at how crap their lives are yet never get off the sofa and watch American Pickers 24/7 Zzzzzz

They''ll renew as it takes a phone call and some effort to cancel!

[westcoastcanary 0]

[quote user="Salford"]As someone correctly pointed out earlier,

perspective means nothing without context. I could sit here and say I''m

still learning how to use the toilet. That would be alright if I was two

years old, but sitting in wet pants in your thirties isn''t such a good

idea.

Where we were 30, 40, 50 years ago doesn''t matter so much now. What''s

important is learning from the past and using it to make decisions in

the present that will have a positive impact on your future. At the

moment, I''m not sure our club is doing that.[/quote]On the contrary,

that is exactly what I see happening. Twice now our response to

relegation from the top tier has been to prioritise an immediate return,

the chosen method being to retain as many of the relegation squad as

possible, strengthening where necessary as circumstances allow. At the

same time, a realistic appreciation of the risks inherent in this

approach has seen clever execution of a fall-back strategy, the

institution of which was signalled by the signing of Thompson, whereby a

much younger, fully motivated and energetic team-in-waiting is being

crafted in case the current strategy should fail. There is no

shortage of people who think that the "lesson" we should have learned

from the recent past is that you have to be prepared to "invest" (=

gamble) big money that you haven''t actually got, in the hope of

achieving salvation in the form of future TV revenues. That is not

learning from the past at all; it is pure wishful thinking on the part

of people who can''t distinguish what is best for the club from a

headlong pursuit of  their quest for personal gratification.

[morty 0]

Good stuff Westy.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Have we learnt from the past when making decisions on current management and whether their tenure should continue or not?

[simmo_2 6]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Mike "]It''s not in the space of ten weeks.... it''s since Lambert was allowed to walk away.

I think Delia & co have gone as far as they can. It''s whether you are happy with that or not. Always a risk if you change owners but in my opinion we are going nowhere but down under the current board.

Good infrastructure, some of the most loyal fans in Europe, huge catchment area should allow us to be competing in the top league such as Stoke, Southampton, Everton etc.[/quote]]We allowed him to walk away did we?Care to expand?[/quote]

Not signing Benteke is why he walked away - common knowledge

[morty 0]

It is?

[simmo_2 6]

[quote user="morty"]It is?[/quote]

Another I heard from Colney, Alex Neil cleared his office about 2 months ago. I guess he was going to resign and got talked out of it. All the staff down there thought it was the last time they would see him,

[westcoastcanary 0]

Of course it is morty, like the moon is made of green cheese. Personally I believe Bowkett about why Lambert resigned -- impatience (I presume with the pace at which the club could afford to loosen the purse strings). Whether he wanted to sign Benteke or not I have no idea; what we do know is that he was given a much larger amount to fritter away at the "big club" he rushed off to, the eventual outcome of which we can all judge for ourselves.

[City 2nd 191]

Can someone on the coach please give Morty a bag of crisps and bottle of pop so he has got something else to do to put a bit of perspective into the matter!

[morty 0]

Fantastic contribution City 2nd.

Thank you for your input to the thread.

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="morty"]Norwich City currently sit 11th in the Championship.Since relegated in 1995 we have finished higher than our current position 12 times, and lower on 9 occasions.When those were seasons spent in the Championship, we have finished higher 7 times, and lower on 8 occasions.We had never finished higher than our current position before 1965.We finished higher than our current position for 25 consecutive seasons between 70-71 and 94-95.

Frankly some of the hand wringing, whingeing, "Oh its the worst Norwich have ever been" is cringeworthy at best, and badly informed at worst.Yeah our current form is boring, but my God, not half as boring as some of our self entitled "fans".[/quote]

We should be comparing ourselves against the gold standard set by Chase.

Except possibly 95-96, we are currently worse than in every season under Chase.

And that includes our woeful cup record the last 20 odd years.

[Alan 0]

This is the worst performance of an expensiveNorwich squad that has had lots of tv money spent on it and it has been outplayed by teams which have cost much less and have no expensive star players.

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="Alan"]This is the worst performance of an expensiveNorwich squad that has had lots of tv money spent on it and it has been outplayed by teams which have cost much less and have no expensive star players.[/quote]

Exactly. The club has squandered everything it has/had going for it. Broadcasting revenue from EPL, parachute payments and debt-free status.

Alex Neil is being kept in post by the Board because they see him as the man to help them downsize the club. They have given up on trying to get back to the EPL because the season-ticket renewal info made no mention of possible EPL football next season.

A new manager would upset the plans to get the club firmly established in League 1. But Alex Neil has no qualms about it because he is still the lucky man to get the Norwich job and even League 1 standard is probably better than the SPL.