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morty

Perspective.

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[quote user="Nuff Said"][quote user="morty"]Good post.I will counter it with though, nobody said that the Premier league must change your perspective, whether or not you get self entitled or over expectant, is purely the individuals choice.I totally agree about the Premier league PLC ruining football though.[/quote]Aha! At last the mask slips - Morty is Delia![/quote]Damn you[:(]

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]"And how do you quantify that exactly?

Your statement right there ties in rather neatly with the title of the thread, perhaps unwittingly."

Easy. It''s the most expensive squad the Club has ever had. What is it 4 players alone costing over £8m. We''ve never had that before and that''s not the end of it.

No inside information as to what the player''s earn, but a few indicators such as Naismith turning down a chance to play for a Premier League club and it being widely suggested that it was because he would have had to take a pay cut.

Anyhow the next set of books will reveal all. The last set revealed our highest outlay in wages ever though.

Whether or not the squad is considered to be our best ever is subjective of course ( and I said squad not team.) I believe it is.

It''s got nothing to do with perspective, it''s mostly fact IMO.[/quote]You''re really not getting it, are you?

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Perspective is great, but it''s also about context.

If we were in the position of someone like Southampton, our expectations would be different. I''d want to be challenging for Europe places. Just as if we were in the position of someone like Charlton, gone are the Premier League heydays, I''d just like to be in the Championship!

As for Norwich, we have progressed from a side that is happy to be mid-table championship. We are a side who has played the large majority of the decade in the Premier League. What we''re currently doing is not good enough given the personnel and infrastructure we have. Expectations change with progress, there''s your perspective.

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[quote user="AJ"]Perspective is great, but it''s also about context.

If we were in the position of someone like Southampton, our expectations would be different. I''d want to be challenging for Europe places. Just as if we were in the position of someone like Charlton, gone are the Premier League heydays, I''d just like to be in the Championship!

As for Norwich, we have progressed from a side that is happy to be mid-table championship. We are a side who has played the large majority of the decade in the Premier League. What we''re currently doing is not good enough given the personnel and infrastructure we have. Expectations change with progress, there''s your perspective.[/quote]I don''t disagree with what you''re saying, but what I am saying is that people have gone from being optimistic for the season to it being their worst time ever as a Norwich City fan, in about the space of ten weeks.In some people, the speed of their descent into "OMG the world is ending" has been a tad excessive.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]How much profit have they made so far, and how much would they stand to make if we were relegated Len?[/quote]I don''t know off the top of my head how much the club is worth today versus price paid. But I would imagine it''s a positive figure.I don''t know the answer to your second question which is why I asked a similar one in the first place!

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"You''re really not getting it, are you?"

Not a lot to get. Your OP was full of facts and fairly shallow on comment.

As soon as people reply with something a little more insightful you insult them, without really explaining why.

Btw: This is not Twitter you know. There''s no restriction on words. So many of your postings seem to be ambiguous one -liners.

That''s hardly debate.

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[quote user="Len"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]How much profit have they made so far, and how much would they stand to make if we were relegated Len?[/quote]I don''t know off the top of my head how much the club is worth today versus price paid. But I would imagine it''s a positive figure.I don''t know the answer to your second question which is why I asked a similar one in the first place![/quote]So you basically don''t know much then?

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Len"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]How much profit have they made so far, and how much would they stand to make if we were relegated Len?[/quote]I don''t know off the top of my head how much the club is worth today versus price paid. But I would imagine it''s a positive figure.I don''t know the answer to your second question which is why I asked a similar one in the first place![/quote]So you basically don''t know much then?[/quote]Well it was hardly a rhetorical question!

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]"You''re really not getting it, are you?"

Not a lot to get. Your OP was full of facts and fairly shallow on comment.

As soon as people reply with something a little more insightful you insult them, without really explaining why.

Btw: This is not Twitter you know. There''s no restriction on words. So many of your postings seem to be ambiguous one -liners.

That''s hardly debate.[/quote]When anyone ever brings up about us having the most expensive squad in Norwich City history, it makes me chuckle. Much the same as the hoo-ha around how much we paid for Van Wolfeswinkie.If we spend, say 20 million, and every other team around us spends, say 40 million, does that shine a different light on things?

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My personal perspective is, that the club board is going full circle - and is now a 100 degrees from completing that 360 degree full circle in returning ''akin'' to the NCFC Board of the 2009 Gunn era......I feel lack of serious investment, the appointment of the current Chairman and present CEO, coupled with the arrival of a close family member onto the NCFC Board - are the reasons behind my personal perspective......It is useful occasionally to look at the past to gain a perspective on the present.......

You can''t blame an employee for the company woes, if you as the hierarchy, are more than satisfied with that employee and their abilities, experience, standards and quality of work......

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[quote user="Len"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Len"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]How much profit have they made so far, and how much would they stand to make if we were relegated Len?[/quote]I don''t know off the top of my head how much the club is worth today versus price paid. But I would imagine it''s a positive figure.I don''t know the answer to your second question which is why I asked a similar one in the first place![/quote]So you basically don''t know much then?[/quote]Well it was hardly a rhetorical question![/quote]Too much nonsense is bandied around about our majority shareholders. Like them or not, they are good people, and have always acted in the interests of Norwich City. If they were just in it for profit, they would have flogged it off long ago, to the highest bidder.

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"I don''t disagree with what you''re saying, but what I am saying is that people have gone from being optimistic for the season to it being their worst time ever as a Norwich City fan, in about the space of ten weeks.

In some people, the speed of their descent into "OMG the world is ending" has been a tad excessive."

Your ability to debate preceded my slight insult.

Mr. M. I really don''t get your original premise. I don''t remember much about ''this being the "worst time ever as a Norwich City fan." Perhaps one or two posters might have and yes that would truly show a lack of perspective.

Our beefing mainly seems to centre upon the fact that, taking all things into account, the squad is massively under-achieving at the moment.

Blimey, we are still in touch with the play-offs. It wouldn''t take much of a turnaround to achieve a place in these.

I cannot quote figures as you did , but I would guess that in the history of the Club we have been in a worse position than we are now at this stage of a season more times than we have been in a better position.

Is this the perspective you desire?

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[quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]Not true. When Smith and Jones came on board they had to cope with the Chase-caused financial crisis, and the team was scrabbling around in mid-table in the second tier. There was then the ITV Digital meltdown to surmount. And since, if as they have said, they give their shares to their nephew, far from profiting, owning Norwich City will have cost them millions.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]Not true. When Smith and Jones came on board they had to cope with the Chase-caused financial crisis, and the team was scrabbling around in mid-table in the second tier. There was then the ITV Digital meltdown to surmount. And since, if as they have said, they give their shares to their nephew, far from profiting, owning Norwich City will have cost them millions.[/quote]

Purple that is a very stupid statement to make

By deciding to give their shares to Tom does not devalue them and therefore does not cost them millions. In fact by putting them in trust it potentially saves them(or their heirs) tens of thousands in death duties.

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No ,, owners done exactly the same thing as happened at Blackpool ,, trousered the money . F*ck the fans .

As Morty drones on " perspective " that depends on from where you are looking . For those not born in the fine city , and indeed many who have since" moved on" the perspective can be very different to the fan who grew up with Norwich City being their " home" club , not Carlisle Utd , or Kirkcaldy and fife or whatever .

We had the opportunity to dine at the top table , lack of perception by the owners , left us with the prospect of stopping in for our fill at the dodgy kebab shop instead .

That is my perspective .

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Ren"]Yes but you could also look just up the road from Coventry to Leicester City.[/quote]The point is we aren''t Leicester or Coventry.We''re Norwich City, and always will be. People need to stop looking elsewhere, desperately wishing we were someone else.[/quote]
That would have been a lot more convincing if you hadn''t "thumbs up''d" the Coventry post.
When you blindly support any post that adheres to your agenda and then dismiss anything that doesn''t it makes people wonder if you yourself hold a balanced view....
Regardless of which club we are, regardless of whether other clubs have good or bad experiences with foreign owners and rich investors, the fact remains that more money than ever is pouring into the game and the price of competition is creeping ever higher. Unfortunately, we barely have enough to compete in the second tier now, what will it be like in a few years time?

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[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]Not true. When Smith and Jones came on board they had to cope with the Chase-caused financial crisis, and the team was scrabbling around in mid-table in the second tier. There was then the ITV Digital meltdown to surmount. And since, if as they have said, they give their shares to their nephew, far from profiting, owning Norwich City will have cost them millions.[/quote]

Purple that is a very stupid statement to make

By deciding to give their shares to Tom does not devalue them and therefore does not cost them millions. In fact by putting them in trust it potentially saves them(or their heirs) tens of thousands in death duties.[/quote]I was talking about Smith and Jones rather than the nephew. Who knows whether those shares will profit him. They might and they might not. But if that plan is carried through S&J will not recoup the millions they have spent.

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]Morty

Ah well, we had 5 pages of decent debate....

To steal your usual retort " define debate"

You don''t like it much when anyone dares to disagree do you Morty ?[/quote]Do you honestly think I care if anyone disagrees with me?Read the rest of the thread, see how what you posted measures up to it.Out of interest, just how much have the owners "trousered" exactly?

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It''s not in the space of ten weeks.... it''s since Lambert was allowed to walk away.

I think Delia & co have gone as far as they can. It''s whether you are happy with that or not. Always a risk if you change owners but in my opinion we are going nowhere but down under the current board.

Good infrastructure, some of the most loyal fans in Europe, huge catchment area should allow us to be competing in the top league such as Stoke, Southampton, Everton etc.

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[quote user="Mike "]It''s not in the space of ten weeks.... it''s since Lambert was allowed to walk away.

I think Delia & co have gone as far as they can. It''s whether you are happy with that or not. Always a risk if you change owners but in my opinion we are going nowhere but down under the current board.

Good infrastructure, some of the most loyal fans in Europe, huge catchment area should allow us to be competing in the top league such as Stoke, Southampton, Everton etc.[/quote]]We allowed him to walk away did we?Care to expand?

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@MORTY "I don''t disagree with what you''re saying, but what I am saying is that people have gone from being optimistic for the season to it being their worst time ever as a Norwich City fan, in about the space of ten weeks.

In some people, the speed of their descent into "OMG the world is ending" has been a tad excessive."

I''m not saying some people aren''t being ridiculous, however, our current run of form is unforgivable and that won''t go away until we put things right. What other side with the quality we have would get away with playing like we have. Bar one draw, our recent form matches that of Rotherham whom we were laughing at a few weeks ago. In fact I believe only Bristol and Wigan have performed worse than us over the past ten games. I''m not expecting us to walk the league, but after the start we made I''m certainly not happy to see us free-falling down the table. If we don''t at least make the play-offs this year the season is a disaster - as a club trying to make being in the Premier League work, we cannot let that happen. Players will leave, finances will crumble, budgets will be cut. The AGM clearly set out no promotion within 2 years is a dark place financially. Whether AN stays or not, we need to get out of this black hole, otherwise our perspectives will be very different come the end of the season!

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]@Morty - its the fact that much of it appears self inflicted (or more accurately inflicted by our owners delusion) that is getting people coupled with the realisation that football and football finances have changed and that their proposed model could see sleep walking towards struggling for a long time and being overtaken by many others. We''ve certainly been a lot sh*tter in the not too distant past but we had no money, very few good players and needed a complete rebuild. It was in many ways easier to accept poor quality on the pitch in such circumstances. At this point in time there is not really an excuse. In years to come we may well all reconcile ourselves with being sh*t again and actually perversely be a lot happier with our lot but that does not mean people do not have a right to be frustrated with what is going on now.[/quote]Good post Jim.Sums up our present predicament quite nicely.

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[quote user="The Great Drinkell"]If we want perspective then just look at Coventry City''s plight. sold out to the highest bidder now they have nothing.

These fans have really reason to moan and would happily swap position with us at Carrow Road.[/quote]That''s why Paddy will never make it as a stand-up [:D]

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Been a good thread with some really well put views from both sides of the argument. Clearly shows how strongly we all feel about it.

Mind you there have been a couple of notable absentees....

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@morty

Jumping back a page or two, I think I''ve found some common ground...

"If we spend, say 20 million, and every other team around us spends, say 40 million, does that shine a different light on things?"

If that was the case, I would look at things from an entirely different perspective. We would be relatively low-resourced and funded and therefore you could not justify any serious expectation to compete. It is why when we are in the Premier League, we are satisfied with anything above 17th and why the European qualification places are just a pipe-dream; because for every £20 million we spend, there are a dozen clubs spending £40 million plus.

However, in the context of the Championship, we are the £40 million spender. I''ve not done the maths, but I would wager heavily that other than Aston Villa and Newcastle (maybe not even Aston Villa), no one has spent more on players than we have in the last three years. I would also wager than no one other than those two have as hefty a wage budget.

Therefore from that perspective, the expectation that we should be doing far, far, far better than we currently are is entirely justified.

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[quote user="Hairy Canary"]Been a good thread with some really well put views from both sides of the argument. Clearly shows how strongly we all feel about it.

Mind you there have been a couple of notable absentees....[/quote]Indeed.[:)]

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