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morty

Perspective.

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If we want perspective then just look at Coventry City''s plight. sold out to the highest bidder now they have nothing.

These fans have really reason to moan and would happily swap position with us at Carrow Road.

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[quote user="The Great Drinkell"]If we want perspective then just look at Coventry City''s plight. sold out to the highest bidder now they have nothing.

These fans have really reason to moan and would happily swap position with us at Carrow Road.[/quote][Y]

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[quote user="The Great Drinkell"]If we want perspective then just look at Coventry City''s plight. sold out to the highest bidder now they have nothing.

These fans have really reason to moan and would happily swap position with us at Carrow Road.[/quote]

Would you self describe yourself at the extreme end of happy clapping like the buffoon LDC?

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Yes but you could also look just up the road from Coventry to Leicester City.

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[quote user="Ren"]Yes but you could also look just up the road from Coventry to Leicester City.[/quote]The point is we aren''t Leicester or Coventry.We''re Norwich City, and always will be. People need to stop looking elsewhere, desperately wishing we were someone else.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Ren"]Yes but you could also look just up the road from Coventry to Leicester City.[/quote]The point is we aren''t Leicester or Coventry.We''re Norwich City, and always will be. People need to stop looking elsewhere, desperately wishing we were someone else.[/quote]

Personally I wish we were Wolves

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[quote user="The Unsullied "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Ren"]Yes but you could also look just up the road from Coventry to Leicester City.[/quote]The point is we aren''t Leicester or Coventry.We''re Norwich City, and always will be. People need to stop looking elsewhere, desperately wishing we were someone else.[/quote]

Personally I wish we were Wolves[/quote][:D]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Ren"]Yes but you could also look just up the road from Coventry to Leicester City.[/quote]The point is we aren''t Leicester or Coventry.We''re Norwich City, and always will be. People need to stop looking elsewhere, desperately wishing we were someone else.[/quote]

Yes and my point is our fans and owners are very quick to point out the teams that are struggling, they are not so quick to look at clubs were change has been positive.

Yes we are ALL NCFC, although we don''t always act like it!

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It''s human nature to want more than you have. We are not Arsenal and we are not Yeovil Town we are Norwich City and our experience is one of joy and sorrow in roughly equal measure.

It''s not perfect but neither is it a disaster. Learning to live with reality is all part of the experience.

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Morty wrote;

What opportunity do you think we haven''t made the most of, and why?

How do you gauge our potential?

Bit of a struggle replying Morty, my boss is in a right grump. Anyone would think I should be working!

I guess a couple of things in particular.

The lack of spending in the summer transfer window when we last went up which, to be fair to the guy, made AN''s job harder. Partly I feel this was because we had our fingers burnt when we splashed the cash on RVW and Hooper and he board were reluctant to follow the same path. Maybe the second promotion came too soon, before those wounds had healed.

Secondly we are not hard nosed or quick enough to take action when things are going in the wrong direction. AN should have gone last January when it began to show that he was struggling. I know it''s tough to take that sort of decision and by and large that''s not our club but it just seemed like we weren''t prepared to throw everything at staying up - taking the risk to change things if you like. It may well have failed but to me at least it would have been better than drifting to a last game where we appalled off the manager and team after gallantly going down.

Our potential? I guess I would say the same as most that we could in theory hang on to the lower reaches of the PL when we have good years. Very difficult to sustain that though, I accept.

In the end it''s just a perception, a feeling, that I can''t prove and others might not share but the article in the Times and the non sacking of a failing a manager just seem to reinforce that.

I''m renewing, because I can''t imagine not going to see the City and I never boo so plenty will feel that my behavior is part of the problem!

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[quote user="Hairy Canary"]Morty wrote;

What opportunity do you think we haven''t made the most of, and why?

How do you gauge our potential?

Bit of a struggle replying Morty, my boss is in a right grump. Anyone would think I should be working!

I guess a couple of things in particular.

The lack of spending in the summer transfer window when we last went up which, to be fair to the guy, made AN''s job harder. Partly I feel this was because we had our fingers burnt when we splashed the cash on RVW and Hooper and he board were reluctant to follow the same path. Maybe the second promotion came too soon, before those wounds had healed.

Secondly we are not hard nosed or quick enough to take action when things are going in the wrong direction. AN should have gone last January when it began to show that he was struggling. I know it''s tough to take that sort of decision and by and large that''s not our club but it just seemed like we weren''t prepared to throw everything at staying up - taking the risk to change things if you like. It may well have failed but to me at least it would have been better than drifting to a last game where we appalled off the manager and team after gallantly going down.

Our potential? I guess I would say the same as most that we could in theory hang on to the lower reaches of the PL when we have good years. Very difficult to sustain that though, I accept.

In the end it''s just a perception, a feeling, that I can''t prove and others might not share but the article in the Times and the non sacking of a failing a manager just seem to reinforce that.

I''m renewing, because I can''t imagine not going to see the City and I never boo so plenty will feel that my behavior is part of the problem![/quote]You can only spend what you have though. And I can understand the boards reluctance to splash out too, there is actually something to be said for keeping the squad together that got you promoted.Again the hard nosed thing, it all costs money, doesn''t it? Glad to hear you''re renewing[Y]

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I agree with Ren. (My phone just auutocorrected Ren to fan btw!). Its easy to throw coventry and return Leicester. It would be much more interesting to see a more comprehensive analysis. Does anyone have one?

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It''s the Premier League''s fault.

It created a magical land of milk and honey that every club dreams about and aspires towards.

Pre-1992 yes there was a tiered system but the relative turnovers between clubs was not that drastic. Cup runs from clubs in Divisions Two, Three and Four were not that uncommon, as our older fans who witnessed the 59 run will attest.

As such, fans were not that unhappy with their lot sat in the second or third tier of the pyramid.

Now, the Premier League rules all. Fantasy cup runs featuring lower-league teams reaching the quarter and semi finals of the FA Cup are now near-impossible. Fans are not happy sitting in the Championship ad nauseam because they feel as though they are just a step away from the hallowed land; the league that gets all the coverage, money and superstars.

For Norwich fans, that frustration is even worse because on three occasions in recent history we have suckled that gilded teat for 5 seasons in 3 visits there, one of which lasted for 3 years. Worse still, one year we managed to get to it only 12 months after we were in League One. For us, more than most (maybe all) Champioship club fans, getting out of the Championship isn''t a vague, unrealistic dream; it''s a reality and a relatively simple task in our eyes.

As such, when that attainable ambition is not reached, the frustration is tenfold what it would be for a club like Ipswich, Barnsley or Brentford.

It''s widely-regarded that happiness or satisfaction is governed by a simple formula of expectation versus reality. It is in this context that people make claims that we are in our worst ever position. Never before have we expected Premier League football so intensely and because our reality is that we are so far away from that expectation, the dissatisfaction manifests itself in statements that may seem hyperbolic.

Between 1995-2001, no one really believed we should be getting promoted to the Premier League so when we failed to mount a challenge to get there fans were not that angry and didn''t feel so disenchanted with our lot.

Likewise, even after Worthy''s cameo in the Premier League, we didn''t really make a great stab at staying up until it was too late and when we were eventually relegated, no one really expected us to romp the Championship and make an instant return. We were hopeful but not expectant. Against that backdrop, our descent into League One was atrocious but not horrendous against the prevalent expectation that we were only really mid-table Championship fodder anyway.

Following our Lambert/Hughton Premier League campaigns and Alex Neil season in the pedestal Premiership our expectations altered drastically. No longer did we feel at home in the Championship. We expect to be on Match of the Day. We expect decent live streams for every football game. Yes we were relegated but that was an aberration, proven by how successfully we started the season. That we are now so far from what we have collectively deemed a perfectly reasonable expectation makes us far, far more exacerbated that other Championship clubs that might be in our position.

This why fans are so angry, despondent and intensely dissatisfied with where we are.

Yes, we have been in worse positions in the past that we currently are. But you could argue we have never been in as bad a position relative to where the fans expect us to be.

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Good post.I will counter it with though, nobody said that the Premier league must change your perspective, whether or not you get self entitled or over expectant, is purely the individuals choice.I totally agree about the Premier league PLC ruining football though.

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The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?

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I think it comes down to my post last night where it''s fair enough to use ''perspective'' but it''s also right to use context alongside that.

Getting relegated to League One was obviously worse than anything we''re experiencing now, but it was after a couple of poor seasons in the Championship and it''s almost like a training session for fans - suddenly when something bad happens after two years of general dross it doesn''t seem so bad.

I think the problem is just an accumulation of everything has understandably created a relatively disappointed fanbase - with quite a lot of those feeling quite disillusioned (not me personally, but understand others viewpoints).

When you go from Prem Club - Championship Club - Top of the Championship - Midtable Championship Nothingness all under the same manager, alongside that poorly timed interview in The Times - you can''t really blame fans.

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@ Canarydan

"But you could argue we have never been in as bad a position relative to where the fans expect us to be."

OR relative to the cost (fees and wages) and indeed quality of the squad at the manager''s disposal.

The thing is. If this squad were to be performing to it''s potential, at it''s best so to speak, I would put it on a par with at least half a dozen, and may be more, squads currently in the Premier League.

I can''t really get this perspective thing, whereby we have to virtually accept what is unfolding before our eyes at the moment, because there have been times when we have been far worse off.

Opportunities are being spurned by the bucket load at the moment. That''s the beef, not the fact that we should be grateful because we are not Coventry City or Ipswich Town.

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[quote user="Len"]The stats suggest that the club has markedly deteriorated under Wynn-Jones and Delia. The Smith family will have profited even if we slide backwards into league one?[/quote]How much profit have they made so far, and how much would they stand to make if we were relegated Len?

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Perspective? Our current owners took us to the lowest position we have ever been since I started going in 1972. Division One. The appointed McNally who appointed Lambert. Lambert single handedly saved this club from being a Pompey by getting us promoted twice & getting us to mid table in the EPL. He left because the owners would not back his ambitions for the club.

We are now back to the very position that allowed us to sink to our lowest position since the 50''s & in my lifetime. A weak CEO, a hopelessly out of touch board and unpopular owners about to hand the club to a 35 year old civil servant.

You maybe ok with it all (including the intended £48m drop in income!!!) but I''m not and feel this club may well go the way of Coventry etc.

But you maybe be right and I hope you are but I feel as disillusioned & fed up as I have every been...

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]@ Canarydan

"But you could argue we have never been in as bad a position relative to where the fans expect us to be."

OR relative to the cost (fees and wages) and indeed quality of the squad at the manager''s disposal.

The thing is. If this squad were to be performing to it''s potential, at it''s best so to speak, I would put it on a par with at least half a dozen, and may be more, squads currently in the Premier League.

I can''t really get this perspective thing, whereby we have to virtually accept what is unfolding before our eyes at the moment, because there have been times when we have been far worse off.

Opportunities are being spurned by the bucket load at the moment. That''s the beef, not the fact that we should be grateful because we are not Coventry City or Ipswich Town.[/quote]And how do you quantify that exactly?Your statement right there ties in rather neatly with the title of the thread, perhaps unwittingly.

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@morty

I don''t think we really have a huge amount of influence over what alters our perspective or not. Just by the fact that the Premier League is there and exists will alter our perspective. The fact that we have an expensively-assembled squad compared to the rest of the league will alter our perspective. The amount a season ticket costs you relative to your income will alter our perspective.

No one said the Premier League should alter our perspective. No one said that your background or upbringing should alter our perspective. It still does.

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[quote user="morty"]Norwich City currently sit 11th in the Championship.Since relegated in 1995 we have finished higher than our current position 12 times, and lower on 9 occasions.When those were seasons spent in the Championship, we have finished higher 7 times, and lower on 8 occasions.We had never finished higher than our current position before 1965.We finished higher than our current position for 25 consecutive seasons between 70-71 and 94-95.

Frankly some of the hand wringing, whingeing, "Oh its the worst Norwich have ever been" is cringeworthy at best, and badly informed at worst.Yeah our current form is boring, but my God, not half as boring as some of our self entitled "fans".[/quote]
Just to keep the record straight....of course we finished fourth in the 1960-61 season.

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[quote user="canarydan23"]@morty

I don''t think we really have a huge amount of influence over what alters our perspective or not. Just by the fact that the Premier League is there and exists will alter our perspective. The fact that we have an expensively-assembled squad compared to the rest of the league will alter our perspective. The amount a season ticket costs you relative to your income will alter our perspective.

No one said the Premier League should alter our perspective. No one said that your background or upbringing should alter our perspective. It still does.[/quote]How much you allow it to, is still the choice of the individual.

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I think how much you allow it to influence your actions is the choice of the individual. How you allow it to influence how it makes you feel one has less control over.

The fact that the Premier League and all its riches dangles like an unobtainable carrot that we think we should just be able to reach forward and grab doesn''t make someone go on the Pinkun and say "this is the worst position the club has ever been in"; however, it can make someone unwittingly feel as though that opinion is valid.

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[quote user="canarydan23"]I think how much you allow it to influence your actions is the choice of the individual. How you allow it to influence how it makes you feel one has less control over.

The fact that the Premier League and all its riches dangles like an unobtainable carrot that we think we should just be able to reach forward and grab doesn''t make someone go on the Pinkun and say "this is the worst position the club has ever been in"; however, it can make someone unwittingly feel as though that opinion is valid.[/quote]Thats fair enough.The whole point though is that people should at least think about it, and the reasons as to why they feel the way they do, before they have their hissy fit.Perspective.

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"And how do you quantify that exactly?

Your statement right there ties in rather neatly with the title of the thread, perhaps unwittingly."

Easy. It''s the most expensive squad the Club has ever had. What is it 4 players alone costing over £8m. We''ve never had that before and that''s not the end of it.

No inside information as to what the player''s earn, but a few indicators such as Naismith turning down a chance to play for a Premier League club and it being widely suggested that it was because he would have had to take a pay cut.

Anyhow the next set of books will reveal all. The last set revealed our highest outlay in wages ever though.

Whether or not the squad is considered to be our best ever is subjective of course ( and I said squad not team.) I believe it is.

It''s got nothing to do with perspective, it''s mostly fact IMO.

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That doesn''t just apply to football though, it''s human nature to act on how you are feeling. If we didn''t and analysed everything in great detail before we did anything, we wouldn''t really be human.

What you are asking is that we reset how we, as a species, have lived our lives purely to arrive at a more informed and logical conclusion regarding our feelings towards a football club''s current position.

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[quote user="morty"]Good post.I will counter it with though, nobody said that the Premier league must change your perspective, whether or not you get self entitled or over expectant, is purely the individuals choice.I totally agree about the Premier league PLC ruining football though.[/quote]Aha! At last the mask slips - Morty is Delia!

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[quote user="canarydan23"]That doesn''t just apply to football though, it''s human nature to act on how you are feeling. If we didn''t and analysed everything in great detail before we did anything, we wouldn''t really be human.

What you are asking is that we reset how we, as a species, have lived our lives purely to arrive at a more informed and logical conclusion regarding our feelings towards a football club''s current position.[/quote]Basically, some people would be happier if we were in the Premier league, losing 20 times a season.People, eh?

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