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morty

Perspective.

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Norwich City currently sit 11th in the Championship.Since relegated in 1995 we have finished higher than our current position 12 times, and lower on 9 occasions.When those were seasons spent in the Championship, we have finished higher 7 times, and lower on 8 occasions.We had never finished higher than our current position before 1965.We finished higher than our current position for 25 consecutive seasons between 70-71 and 94-95.

Frankly some of the hand wringing, whingeing, "Oh its the worst Norwich have ever been" is cringeworthy at best, and badly informed at worst.Yeah our current form is boring, but my God, not half as boring as some of our self entitled "fans".

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This reminds me of when it was all going wrong under Hughton. The signs made it obvious where we were heading, but midway through his last season we mostly sat around 16th/17th

You could see the players were not comfortable playing in that system, he was failing to motivate them for all but the most crucial games, the style of play was getting even worse, the same mistakes were being repeated over and over again but some held our position in the league at the time up as a sign that we weren''t in that much trouble and were doing well.

Surely considering the financial advantage we have this year and the quality of player at our disposal compared to our even recent history you can''t disagree that we''re doing extremely poorly and it''s understandable that most fans have had enough?

The season isn''t over yet anyway and from what I''ve seen of the team this year I can only see it getting worse.

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[quote user="Nuff Said"]Cue a host of replies basically saying ''Why aren''t we Southampton/Swansea/Swansea/Hull..."& i[/quote]Quite probably. Its like a form of self hating, rather than look inwards and actually like the club you allegedly support, it seems far easier to look outwards and be envious about something you don''t have. Kinda backs up my self entitlement point.

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Well as long as your happy.... crack on and enjoy it.

For me ill remember this period for:-

- A chairman who is more interested in dancing.

- Majority Shareholders who don''t put the interests of the club ahead of there own.

- A CEO who gives me no confidence.

- A fan base growing ever more frustrated.

- Players who don''t seem to want to play for their manager/club.

- A manager who hasn''t learnt who is best team is yet this season and continues to play the same old style week in week out.

Its not the worst things have been here in my supporting life (1985 if you care) BUT I cant see how we as a club are going to turn this around.

I am hearing of more and more people who have held season tickets for years saying that they are not renewing (whether they do or not remains to be seen of course) and some fans think we will be better of without them. I don''t these are the live blood of the club and if those types of fans are turning away, then we are in for some real dark times here at CR.

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Lots of fans have only experienced the last 15 to 20 years.

The last ten have seen a lot of excitement with constant ups and downs so it''s no surprise that many relative newcomers think that it''s the norm. Those of us who have a perspective going back to the early 1950''s tend to have a more balanced view.

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[quote user="Ren"]Well as long as your happy.... crack on and enjoy it.

For me ill remember this period for:-

- A chairman who is more interested in dancing.

- Majority Shareholders who don''t put the interests of the club ahead of there own.

- A CEO who gives me no confidence.

- A fan base growing ever more frustrated.

- Players who don''t seem to want to play for their manager/club.

- A manager who hasn''t learnt who is best team is yet this season and continues to play the same old style week in week out.

Its not the worst things have been here in my supporting life (1985 if you care) BUT I cant see how we as a club are going to turn this around.

I am hearing of more and more people who have held season tickets for years saying that they are not renewing (whether they do or not remains to be seen of course) and some fans think we will be better of without them. I don''t these are the live blood of the club and if those types of fans are turning away, then we are in for some real dark times here at CR.[/quote]Did I say I was happy? Read the title of the thread again.And don''t even start me on the drama of people crying about renewing or not. If you''re not enjoying it, just don''t. Its that simple.

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Yeah but it isn''t all about the numbers is it?

I''ve been regularly attending games 2000 and this is honestly the lowest and least connected I''ve ever felt about the club.

As someone said on another thread, we''ve got no money to spend, our owners seem to be drifting further and further out of touch with the fans, any semblance of ambition seems to have left the club to be replaced with ridiculous protests ''against modern football'' and blatant nepotism.

So yeah we may not be as bad as when we got relegated to League One but it is difficult to escape the feeling that we''re heading in the wrong direction.

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[quote user="king canary"]Yeah but it isn''t all about the numbers is it?

I''ve been regularly attending games 2000 and this is honestly the lowest and least connected I''ve ever felt about the club.

As someone said on another thread, we''ve got no money to spend, our owners seem to be drifting further and further out of touch with the fans, any semblance of ambition seems to have left the club to be replaced with ridiculous protests ''against modern football'' and blatant nepotism.

So yeah we may not be as bad as when we got relegated to League One but it is difficult to escape the feeling that we''re heading in the wrong direction.[/quote]There was probably less fan outrage when we were relegated to league one, than there is now.That, to me, is wildly out of proportion.

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...but for many, myself included we have invested a lot of time and money into this club already, its like cutting of a family member because of a small argument that has got out of hand.

It hurts to watch something you love slowly falling apart in front of you, so I totally get why people are "crying" over it.

We all love this club, some it would appear more than others.

Sometimes to just blindly accept what is going on in front of you is more damaging than trying to do something about it.

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[quote user="Ren"]...but for many, myself included we have invested a lot of time and money into this club already, its like cutting of a family member because of a small argument that has got out of hand.

It hurts to watch something you love slowly falling apart in front of you, so I totally get why people are "crying" over it.

We all love this club, some it would appear more than others.

Sometimes to just blindly accept what is going on in front of you is more damaging than trying to do something about it.[/quote]So walking away is what you do about it? When that family member needs you?

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I don''t understand.

Blindly accept it or what? What is it you''re going to do?

Walk away apparently.

Are they the two choices that we''re left with? If that is the case, I''ll blindly accept it because if I stopped going my son would kill me and I''d be cutting my nose off to spite my face.

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Morty: "There was probably less fan outrage when we were relegated to league one, than there is now.

That, to me, is wildly out of proportion."

I agree - but relegation to League One didn''t happen overnight - it was the result of horrific mismanagement over a number of years.

Crippling debts, 100% reliance on loan players, not having any sell able ''assets'' (i.e. players), terrible choice in managers (Worthington > Grant > Roeder > Gunn)

Like somebody said above, I have had my season ticket since Boxing Day ''99 (I was 10, think we won 2-1, but Diop may have spat at the QPR fans?) and this ceratinly isn''t the worst, even in that period.

But it does seem to be happening at a much more alarming rate than League One relgation, which considering the period between then & now is much harder to understand

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For some I think there is no way back, of course those that have been here are a long time are hurting, but its people personal choice, if they want to stay or go.

One thing I have learnt over the years is no supporter is better than another. Going to lots of games just to "be the best" is frankly childish, but many clubs live of this blind loyalty.

Ill will renew in the hope that the good times return to Carrow Road, but they don''t feel very close at the moment!

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@Morty - its the fact that much of it appears self inflicted (or more accurately inflicted by our owners delusion) that is getting people coupled with the realisation that football and football finances have changed and that their proposed model could see sleep walking towards struggling for a long time and being overtaken by many others. We''ve certainly been a lot sh*tter in the not too distant past but we had no money, very few good players and needed a complete rebuild. It was in many ways easier to accept poor quality on the pitch in such circumstances. At this point in time there is not really an excuse. In years to come we may well all reconcile ourselves with being sh*t again and actually perversely be a lot happier with our lot but that does not mean people do not have a right to be frustrated with what is going on now.

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The most pertinent point though, which those stats do not cover, is that given the resources we have had, those that we have, the huge amounts spent on transfers, the current wage bill, we are massively underachieving and to a much greater degree than any of those seasons mentioned!

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Interesting post Morty.

I''ve been supporting long enough to understand that where we are now is pretty much par for the course, which your figures show. I realise that establishing ourselves in the premier is a huge, virtually impossible task and that ultimately we will have periods where we fall well short of that. Its what football is all about. The issue for me however is nothing to do with the league table at all.

It''s about feeling that we are making the most of our opportunities when they arrive. Feeling that we are striving to get to be the best we can. Trusting the people at the top to do everything they can to maximise our potential. Most of all its about being part of our club all pulling together, from the board to the terraces, working through the bad times in order to celebrate the good times.

There have been many, many worse times than this but I genuinely can''t say I''ve ever felt so apathetic about things as I do now. Basically my lows aren''t so painful when we lose against the likes of Rotherham as they used to be.

I''m worried that the club is content to be where we are now, as if they have accepted that this is our proper place; that unpleasant decisions won''t be taken, that risks in order to maintain the fleeting periods of success won''t be taken in preference to keeping the balance sheet in order.

Football is about passion, euphoria when we win, misery when we fail, not safely accepting less than we can be. We''re should and must fight for more, otherwise we risk stagnation like that lot down the road.

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Let''s not even think about the squandering of Lambert''s golden legacy. Instead, let''s reflect on the excitement of the years in division three south, after all, we currently look set on a return to tier three.

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[quote user="Hairy Canary"]Interesting post Morty.

I''ve been supporting long enough to understand that where we are now is pretty much par for the course, which your figures show. I realise that establishing ourselves in the premier is a huge, virtually impossible task and that ultimately we will have periods where we fall well short of that. Its what football is all about. The issue for me however is nothing to do with the league table at all.

It''s about feeling that we are making the most of our opportunities when they arrive. Feeling that we are striving to get to be the best we can. Trusting the people at the top to do everything they can to maximise our potential. Most of all its about being part of our club all pulling together, from the board to the terraces, working through the bad times in order to celebrate the good times.

There have been many, many worse times than this but I genuinely can''t say I''ve ever felt so apathetic about things as I do now. Basically my lows aren''t so painful when we lose against the likes of Rotherham as they used to be.

I''m worried that the club is content to be where we are now, as if they have accepted that this is our proper place; that unpleasant decisions won''t be taken, that risks in order to maintain the fleeting periods of success won''t be taken in preference to keeping the balance sheet in order.

Football is about passion, euphoria when we win, misery when we fail, not safely accepting less than we can be. We''re should and must fight for more, otherwise we risk stagnation like that lot down the road.[/quote]Good post.I''m only replying to the reasoned ones, as I''m bored of folks uninteresting whines[:)]What opportunity do you think we haven''t made the most of, and why?How do you gauge our potential?

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Clearly not the worse we have ever been, however this sort of post is a double edged sword in that if we are going to start talking about stats and history I would suggest that 9 defeats in 13 takes some beating.

You also have to factor in that we have had a taste or two of life at the top table recently and quite rightly the fans want more of the same, add in what I consider to be ill informed soundbites from the Club (the latest being Promotion, promotion, promotion).

My own perspective is that in my lifetime we have spent as much time outside the top tier as we have in it, we have punched above our weight, and I will continue to go to games whilst I am physically able to (Many more years yet I hope).

That all said I do think we are at a real crossroads as a club in terms of the way finances in football are going, I want to see Norwich playing at the top level, but I have a nagging fear that if we fail to achieve promotion this season then we absolutely have to get promoted next season otherwise there is a real danger we will become the perennial second tier club.

Prudence with ambition is great, however there may be an argument for having a manageable level of debt in our quest to get promoted.

What happened in 1965 is history, what happens in 2017 onwards is the important issue the club and fans should be concentrating on.......

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]The most pertinent point though, which those stats do not cover, is that given the resources we have had, those that we have, the huge amounts spent on transfers, the current wage bill, we are massively underachieving and to a much greater degree than any of those seasons mentioned![/quote]

Hmmm.

Spin it the other way and with the 43rd richest owners of the 44 clubs in the top two divisions, we''re overachieving.

The relevant point of course is that yes, we''ve had more money but so has everybody else, it doesn''t really equate to an advantage when we''re in the top flight because of that and when we get relegated, as now, the parachute payments are swallowed by the inflated wage bill we''re left with from trying to compete in the Prem.

It''s rubbish. But it''s what it is.

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Hairy Canary wrote;

I''m worried that the club is content to be where we are now, as if they have accepted that this is our proper place; that unpleasant decisions won''t be taken, that risks in order to maintain the fleeting periods of success won''t be taken in preference to keeping the balance sheet in order.

Football is about passion, euphoria when we win, misery when we fail, not safely accepting less than we can be. We''re should and must fight for more, otherwise we risk stagnation like that lot down the road,

I agree, football is about here and now, its an emotional rollercoaster, its very emotive, and part of following your club is dealing with the thin times and the even thinner times. This is something you can only get by attending matches on a regular basis. Sometimes for your own sanity you need to miss a few games, but only give up your season ticket if really don''t want to go back, you will miss it.

Would rather show displeasure with a boo at the end of a match, or head straight for the exit at the final whistle if not happy what has been served up, but guess what more often than not, over time, the bit you love the most comes back.

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Perspective is important but so is personal expectations. When I first started supporting City in the early 1960s we were a bog standard Division 2 (Championship) side not long promoted from Division 3 and with no realistic prospect of being anything else. Supporters were satisfied since it was also the highest status the club had had in its history. Then came Ron Saunders and over a period of three years he built a side that took us to the promised land. Since then we have spend roughly half our seasons in the top flight and half in the second tier. Fans experience was of an overall average higher level of football and hence expectations rose with that experience. Going backwards is difficult to accept with a shrug of the shoulders. It''s like life in general, for example, if you progress up the housing ladder you won''t want to go back to the little flat above the choppy say.

Playing at this level or even lower with no prospect of it changing, at least in the short term, is not the end of the world but it is also not something to be excited about.

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[quote user="Ren"]Well as long as your happy.... crack on and enjoy it.

For me ill remember this period for:-

- A chairman who is more interested in dancing.

- Majority Shareholders who don''t put the interests of the club ahead of there own.[/quote]If that was true they would have sold out to the highest bidder, however financially questionable, years ago.

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