When is it enough?

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

Thought I''d get involved with the hypothetical posts that have been popping up since Saturday.When do people think that the majority of fans will have enough of the current owners?I expect that if things improve over the next couple of months and we are pushing for automatic promotion come January/February then all of wailing and gnashing of teeth will be forgotten. But as Ricardo has pointed out several times, once we get to a point where results are spiraling downwards most managers find it almost impossible to turn things around and start getting good results again. So if we do continue on our downward trajectory when do people start to get so fed up with the current ownership set up that they are encouraged to move on?There will obviously be the usual suspects that would blindly follow the Smith''s over the edge of a cliff and into the Conference, proudly spouting what a fantastic job they''re doing regardless of results on the pitch and that any one else who doesn''t see things the same is a "pant wetter". Those people who don''t try nuffin noo and definitely don''t like the idea of those furriners buying Norwich City. The more or less neutral fans that are just happy to have something to do on a Saturday afternoon and aren''t really interested in how we''re doing as long as City are a local club owned by local people, or as Roy Keane would have described them "the prawn sandwich brigade". But what do the more passionate, reasoned, level headed and rational fans think? If we manage to avoid promotion over the next two years will that be enough of the cook and chief bottle washer? How about if their "Kanute-esque socialist experiment" results in a return to League 1, or heaven forbid lower? Or will it take administration and the brink of financial ruin at the club before they even consider getting out? And if/when they do move on is Kim Tom Un the answer once we see the end of Queen Delia and Duke Micheal''s reign of terror? What about the Norwich City Supporters Trust, would it be an opportunity for them to gain more influence and would they even have the capacity to do so? Or would we have to admit that if this club is to compete at the very top level once again, like we did 20-30 years ago under South and Chase, that the only way for this to be achieved (although not guaranteed) is through a sugar-daddy buying a majority shareholding in the club?

[TCCANARY 263]

"Thought I''d get involved with the hypothetical posts that have been popping up since Saturday.When do people think that the majority of fans will have enough of the current owners?"

That''s enough, the rest of your post was complete nonsense, your obsession with comparing Carrow Rd to North Korea is very wierd, go and have a lie down.

[Crafty Canary 495]

I would imagine the North Korea association is because they too have a leadership that doesn''t tolerate dissent albeit with more vigour.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Crafty Canary"]I would imagine the North Korea association is because they too have a leadership that doesn''t tolerate dissent albeit with more vigour.[/quote]Yes, plus the fact that it is run by "socialists" where the leadership is passed down as an hereditary title. North Korea I mean, not Norwich City of course.

[The gut 0]

"But what do the more passionate, reasoned, level headed and rational fans think?"

I can''t believe you seriously think you will find this group of people on this forum.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

Looking back at when Robert Chase was forced out, there simply came a point where enough of the fan base concluded that he was the problem, so an underlying change was needed rather than just sacking the latest manager.  It became clear that each managerial appointment didn''t have the necessary tools to do the job, & eventually the buck stopped with Chase instead.

At the moment, we have a squad that''s clearly strong enough to be in the top two of the division, and we''ve spent four out of the last 5 seasons in the Prem.  So there''s limited scope to criticise the owners right now.  It''s the manager who is struggling.

 

If he''s able to turn things around, or if he''s sacked by a replacement who does so, then the criticism of the owners will become muted once again.  If not, and if they become part of the problem by persisting with him too long, or making another weak appointment like Adams or Gunn, then they could find themselves in the firing line.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

Also I think plenty of City fans are aware that a rich buyer with no prior connection, who just wants to own the club as a status symbol or to further their business interests somehow, is a double-edged sword.  Some have worked out well but there are plenty that have ended very badly.

[morty 0]

Whilst I don''t disagree that fans played their part in ousting Chase, I think banks banging on the door made him realise that the game was up and it was time for a sharp exit.

It''s really no comparison to how things stand today.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

ICF, do you think it could happen as quickly as another poor managerial appointment or persisting with AN too long? Mr Chops seems to think that a change of ownership will never happen in his lifetime. I personally think that there are still a lot of people who are either pro-Delia or couldn''t really care less at the moment. But that could change if the owners persisted with AN through to Easter and the results haven''t improved. Lets say we face Ipswich and lose 3 or 4 nil, would that be enough for the apathy to turn to frustration and anger against our dear leaders?

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="morty"]Whilst I don''t disagree that fans played their part in ousting Chase, I think banks banging on the door made him realise that the game was up and it was time for a sharp exit.

It''s really no comparison to how things stand today.[/quote]But what happens if the parachute payments dry up and we can''t shift big earners like Naismith?The sound financial situation can change within the space of 3 or 4 years, after all we went from the brink of administration to debt free in that space of time. What makes you think we couldn''t return to a precarious financial state even quicker?

[morty 0]

So you just wave a magic wand and get yourself a fancy new owner?

Wasn''t there a club, not very far from here who did that some years ago, and delighted in waving bank notes at us and sang " we are forking loaded"?

I wonder how that turned out?

[JF 694]

After their comments at the weekend I''ve moved from the tolerate them to the had enough of them camp. Not that it matters one little bit as they have made it clear they are going nowhere. Simple answer to that is after this season I''m done with attending Carrow road whilst they are around

[nutty nigel 7,509]

This thread says nothing that isn''t on the other threads. Assuming Toe sees himself as a more passionate, reasoned, level headed and rational fan he doesn''t offer an opinion.

ICF, Chase was seen as the problem for the vast majority of his time and not just the end. There were continual protests that only really let up for the two seasons where we finished third and played in Europe. 

Over the years the real hatred from the fans seems to have been instigated more by selling players and sacking managers than results. Some of the most vile abuse I ever heard was directed at Geoffrey Watling at the times when Ron Davies and Hugh Curran were sold. The fans turned against the late great Sir Arthur when he sold Kevin Reeves. And of course big fat Bob suffered an EGM for sacking Ken Brown and continual protests for selling players throughout his time. 

As each new club gets a fancy new investor owner a section of our fan base turn on Delia but it''s come to nothing yet. This could be why : -

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

As for clubs thriving with investment owners that is true. But many many more don''t. The idea that this type of ownership will get us established in the PL is just wishful thinking I''m afraid. To put it into perspective every club in the EPL has this type of ownership except the paupers Boro (Steve Gibson 135m) and Burnley (Mike Garlick 55m) So there''s the first 18 clubs established. Then you''ve got Villa, Blackburn, Bristol City, Cardiff, Derby, Fulham, Ipswich, Leeds, Newcastle, Forest, Preston, QPR, Reading Sheff Wed and Wolves in the Championship all obviously waiting to be established in the PL. 

Somehow all this is going to happen whilst the PL remains with only 20 member clubs. The mind boggles...

[/quote]

It seems to me  passionate, reasoned, level headed and rational fans can see this. When could it change? Well in my opinion if it becomes obvious that our ownership model can''t compete with the majority of similar clubs with the other ownership model.

[Tumbleweed 106]

.......which surely makes it even more important that when those moments come along they are seized to the maximum extent possible. After May 2015 we had an opportunity to do that, by sensible strengthening and the right managerial team in place. Last year we were no worse as a team than Watford, Bournemouth, Sunderland or Palace yet still managed the drop.

This season is looking like it may be the last for a while. A swift return could require a change in manager, look at Watford who got rid of the guy who gave them promotion. The issue is that Delia looks like she will fiddle around messing up this chance we have through an overly emotional attachment to what appears to be a floundering manager. That is what frustrates me, the sacrifice of the long term because of inertia in the short term and a failure to learn from past mistakes.

I don''t see us having any divine right to be in the PL. But I would like our owners to make the most of the opportunities to stay/get there.

[morty 0]

You say that like a change of manager will bring inevitable, guaranteed improvement.

There are no certainties in football.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"].......which surely makes it even more important that when those moments come along they are seized to the maximum extent possible. After May 2015 we had an opportunity to do that, by sensible strengthening and the right managerial team in place. Last year we were no worse as a team than Watford, Bournemouth, Sunderland or Palace yet still managed the drop. This season is looking like it may be the last for a while. A swift return could require a change in manager, look at Watford who got rid of the guy who gave them promotion. The issue is that Delia looks like she will fiddle around messing up this chance we have through an overly emotional attachment to what appears to be a floundering manager. That is what frustrates me, the sacrifice of the long term because of inertia in the short term and a failure to learn from past mistakes. I don''t see us having any divine right to be in the PL. But I would like our owners to make the most of the opportunities to stay/get there.[/quote]

Very good points.

 

I would say that for Chase there was a difference between the low-level grumbling earlier in his reign and the much deeper opposition towards the end.  At the moment for Delia & Co we are still at the low-level grumbling stage.  But for me, if the fan base did turn against Delia, I don''t think she''d put up with it for as long as those previous owners did.  I don''t think she''s as thick-skinned as say Chase was (most people aren''t as thick-skinned as him IMO). 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

ICF, an Norwich City Football Club Ltd. EGM at St Andrews Hall is not simple low level grumbling. It''s only happened once in my memory.

[morty 0]

I remember much more than grumbling directed at Delia around the time of the Worthy out campaign.

[ricardo 7,342]

It is impossible to know in advance when enough is enough. Events and the crowds reaction to them will tell us the who and the when.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]This thread says nothing that isn''t on the other threads. Assuming Toe sees himself as a more passionate, reasoned, level headed and rational fan he doesn''t offer an opinion.

ICF, Chase was seen as the problem for the vast majority of his time and not just the end. There were continual protests that only really let up for the two seasons where we finished third and played in Europe. 

Over the years the real hatred from the fans seems to have been instigated more by selling players and sacking managers than results. Some of the most vile abuse I ever heard was directed at Geoffrey Watling at the times when Ron Davies and Hugh Curran were sold. The fans turned against the late great Sir Arthur when he sold Kevin Reeves. And of course big fat Bob suffered an EGM for sacking Ken Brown and continual protests for selling players throughout his time. 

As each new club gets a fancy new investor owner a section of our fan base turn on Delia but it''s come to nothing yet. This could be why : -

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

As for clubs thriving with investment owners that is true. But many many more don''t. The idea that this type of ownership will get us established in the PL is just wishful thinking I''m afraid. To put it into perspective every club in the EPL has this type of ownership except the paupers Boro (Steve Gibson 135m) and Burnley (Mike Garlick 55m) So there''s the first 18 clubs established. Then you''ve got Villa, Blackburn, Bristol City, Cardiff, Derby, Fulham, Ipswich, Leeds, Newcastle, Forest, Preston, QPR, Reading Sheff Wed and Wolves in the Championship all obviously waiting to be established in the PL. 

Somehow all this is going to happen whilst the PL remains with only 20 member clubs. The mind boggles...

[/quote]

It seems to me  passionate, reasoned, level headed and rational fans can see this. When could it change? Well in my opinion if it becomes obvious that our ownership model can''t compete with the majority of similar clubs with the other ownership model.

[/quote]No I wasn''t referring to myself in my OP, but there was more than a slight inference that you are one of the "usual suspects".

[nutty nigel 7,509]

I love this thread Toe. It''s like your walking around the city with your sad limitations displayed on a sandwich board.

[Number 9 0]

Last season had the manager been changed, we probably wouldn''t have been relegated. Ie, we had a problem with holding onto leads in games and experienced PL managers wouldn''t have allowed that to continue.

It was plain for all to see, even though I was shouted down when I mentioned it.

The board / owners decided to get relegated with Alex and have since pledged their allegiance to him even though the same problem exists with the game tactics.

Eventually, it seems that the consensus is our manager hadn''t addressed the issue.

One certainty exists, Alex Neil will not manage our club for ten years.

He will either continue as is and get sacked or will somehow address the issues, lead us to incredible success and get poached by a ''bigger'' club.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

Did someone mention prawn sandwiches?

[shaunieboy77 73]

I think its enough now, yet nothing will happen in the hope that things might get slightly better.

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

I think that when you put up a strawman that some fans would blindly follow the current board into the Conference, you probably aren''t here for decent discussion.

[The Unsullied 0]

I think the crowd is a long way from turning he has until at least xmas

[......and Smith must score. 1,334]

[quote user="The gut"]"But what do the more passionate, reasoned, level headed and rational fans think?"

I can''t believe you seriously think you will find this group of people on this forum.[/quote]I think it''s fair to say that the lunatics have definitely taken over this asylum [;)]

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

I have been saying for many years that she is history''s greatest monster.