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Question for Purple or any other fag packet accountants.

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When Delia and MWJ took over the club in our hour of need how much did they pay for their majority shareholding? I know they put money into the club in terms of interest free loans but with these being now paid back in full I wonder how much they actually invested to secure their majority? Was this figure ever divulged and who were their shares bought from? Genuinely interested as I was out of the country when this occurred and have no idea about the deals that took place.

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[quote user="Ron Manager"]When Delia and MWJ took over the club in our hour of need how much did they pay for their majority shareholding? I know they put money into the club in terms of interest free loans but with these being now paid back in full I wonder how much they actually invested to secure their majority? Was this figure ever divulged and who were their shares bought from? Genuinely interested as I was out of the country when this occurred and have no idea about the deals that took place.[/quote]What you mean to ask Ron is how much did Watling wallet? And the answer is we aren''t sure.

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Actually 42 is correct, reported at the time they paid £700,000 for 42% in the original deal.

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Smith and Jones hold 327,309 ordinary shares in Norwich City Football Club Plc and 3,025 B Shares.

268,456 of the ordinary shares were allotted to them in various issues between 1998 and 2007 for a total cost of approximately £5,953,000. Smith and Jones bought Mr Watling''s stake of 58,653 shares in 1998 for an undisclosed figure as well as 200 of Mr Lockwood''s shares in 1997 for an undisclosed figure. Assuming these were purchased as the prevailing price of £18.50 per share, these shares would have cost an additional approx. £1,089,000. Bringing the total cost of c.£7,042,000.

The 3,025 B Shares were issued at a cost of £100 per share. Giving a total cost of £302,500.

This gives a total cost for all the shares (and excluding any loans/debts written-off etc.) of c.£7.3m.

These figures have been sourced from publicly available information at beta.companieshouse.gov.uk.

I re-iterate, Smith and Jones'' transaction with Mr Watling was private, therefore the price paid is not public (as far as I''m aware). Only they would know the exact figure.

For those intrepid enough, the 20/10/1998 annual return is unusual for listing ALL the club''s shareholders (it''s a bloody long list so usually not filed on the web). To easily find it, check the box for "Confirmation statements / Annual returns".

There will be some familiar names on the schedule, for example on page 42...

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I watched an interview with Deliah and michael years ago - before we made it to the Prem - where Deliah was asked why she hadn''t invested.

Now, it''s up to you whether you believe this - personally I do.

Deliah said she was sitting in her garden with Michael discussing what to do with all their money for the remainder of their years. Either sit on it, or do something with it. She said she decided to help the club which at the time was in dire straights, and didn''t honestly expect to see the money again (at the time most football clubs were money black holes).

The point is now that she has her money back, good on her. I would not be prepared to invest a substantial part of my wealth in the club and nor would 99% of fans I suspect.

If the opening question is about their commitment then for me it''s beyond question.

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They''ve had some of their loans back but in fairness my understanding other loans were converted into shares so they have not had back. What they have I suppose got in return for the conversion of those shares is full "control" of the club and a shareholding that is now worth (at least at the moment) considerably more than any amount they have ever invested. Indeed were they or Tom minded to sell and adopted a hard nosed business approach then they would make a very tidy profit I suspect.

However, if Delia is true to her word and will "never sell" then I suppose the statement that they don''t expect to see any of the money back perhaps stands through because the shares as an asset are only going to cystalise value if they decide to sell the club.

I''ve never been one of the fans to subscribe to the theory that they have done what they have done to make money or for any motive other than to do what they think is best for the club. I do though think that there is a certain stubbornness and in the latest interview arguably an arrogance that perhaps has come from an increasing siege mentality over the years in response to criticism they have received. The ultimate irony is that if their vision does end up being misguided and renders us uncompetitive in the modern football world then it will make it even more likely that neither they nor nephew Tom will ever see any of that money again!

As others have mentioned elsewhere though, if you truly are custodians for the fans, want to take a stand against big business in modern football and don''t expect or want to see any of the money again why not set up a succession plan that truly vests ownership of the club in the fans such as several of the Spanish clubs.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]They''ve had some of their loans back but in fairness my understanding other loans were converted into shares so they have not had back. What they have I suppose got in return for the conversion of those shares is full "control" of the club and a shareholding that is now worth (at least at the moment) considerably more than any amount they have ever invested. Indeed were they or Tom minded to sell and adopted a hard nosed business approach then they would make a very tidy profit I suspect.

However, if Delia is true to her word and will "never sell" then I suppose the statement that they don''t expect to see any of the money back perhaps stands through because the shares as an asset are only going to cystalise value if they decide to sell the club.

I''ve never been one of the fans to subscribe to the theory that they have done what they have done to make money or for any motive other than to do what they think is best for the club. I do though think that there is a certain stubbornness and in the latest interview arguably an arrogance that perhaps has come from an increasing siege mentality over the years in response to criticism they have received. The ultimate irony is that if their vision does end up being misguided and renders us uncompetitive in the modern football world then it will make it even more likely that neither they nor nephew Tom will ever see any of that money again!

As others have mentioned elsewhere though, if you truly are custodians for the fans, want to take a stand against big business in modern football and don''t expect or want to see any of the money again why not set up a succession plan that truly vests ownership of the club in the fans such as several of the Spanish clubs.[/quote]Can you explain what you believe a custodian is?

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[quote user="Buncey"]Smith and Jones hold 327,309 ordinary shares in Norwich City Football Club Plc and 3,025 B Shares.

268,456 of the ordinary shares were allotted to them in various issues between 1998 and 2007 for a total cost of approximately £5,953,000. Smith and Jones bought Mr Watling''s stake of 58,653 shares in 1998 for an undisclosed figure as well as 200 of Mr Lockwood''s shares in 1997 for an undisclosed figure. Assuming these were purchased as the prevailing price of £18.50 per share, these shares would have cost an additional approx. £1,089,000. Bringing the total cost of c.£7,042,000.

The 3,025 B Shares were issued at a cost of £100 per share. Giving a total cost of £302,500.

This gives a total cost for all the shares (and excluding any loans/debts written-off etc.) of c.£7.3m.

These figures have been sourced from publicly available information at beta.companieshouse.gov.uk.

I re-iterate, Smith and Jones'' transaction with Mr Watling was private, therefore the price paid is not public (as far as I''m aware). Only they would know the exact figure.

For those intrepid enough, the 20/10/1998 annual return is unusual for listing ALL the club''s shareholders (it''s a bloody long list so usually not filed on the web). To easily find it, check the box for "Confirmation statements / Annual returns".

There will be some familiar names on the schedule, for example on page 42...[/quote]
Buncey, in the absence of anyone else doing I''ll thank you for posting this in answer to the OP. Posts like this are rare and should perhaps be kept somewhere accessible so when these questions arise time and time again the answer will be easy to find. You always were a top PUP and I''m proud of that and of your recent contributions to this community.
So Tilly is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. Nutty can be found on page 14 but those shares are now a family dynasty[:)]
Anyone else on that register from 1998?

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Took me a while Nutty but there certainly are some instantly recognisable names on there from today and yesteryear and a few who are no longer with us. Found myself on page 42.

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[quote user="Vegan Sausage"]I wish I could find myself Til1010.

Don''t know where I am half the time.[/quote]Probably in one of those luke warm sausage rolls that got mentioned at last years AGM. [:D]

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So there you have the reason the shares will be put in trust.

Ever heard of death duties?

40% of whatever is left over £300,000ish!

Trusts are a way to avoid paying some of it.

Is that right Purple

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Bearing in mind the death duty scenario may not come ito play for 25 years or more that''s a huge leap to make Butler. What happens if the period the shares are held in trust ends when MWJ or DS are still alive? 

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I bet nobody from Barclays Bank will be anywhere near this Trust or trustees as they got their fingers badly burnt back in the 90''s.

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Thank you Nutty, as always you are very kind. As for the exact figure, as seen from the link shared above, only Smith and Jones will know. But I hope my figures give a good enough estimate.

I hope those who have had a look at the 1998 register (Tilly, I confess I picked you out as you would be a familiar name to a number of people) have enjoyed doing so. The 2013 register is also available, though in a far less legible format. For me, what is more important than the actual figure invested is that these documents show the generosity of Smith and Jones at a crucial time for the club. The documents also show, most importantly of all, the 1,000s of fans who put money into the club in the late 1990s and early 2000s when the future of the club was in serious jeopardy. It''s not a leap to say that, without that generosity, the club wouldn''t be in the position it''s in today. I think that the club is blessed with an amazing community of fans.

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Here is the link (although you''ll have to copy and paste as i have no idea how to do a ''proper'' link). It should immediately open the document as a pdf, it''s 139 pages so may take a while to open:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00154044/filing-history/MzA4Nzk2NzE5M2FkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0

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