The American dream

[93vintage 16]

The election was swung in favour of Trump by the release of wikileaks emails and the resulting re-opening of the FBI investigation.It was what political analysts call an October Surprise, of which there have been a few over the years, notably the Iranian Hostage Crisis which handed Reagan the presidency. I suspect that the ''surprise'' was heavily backed by those who didn''t fancy starting a war with Russia, which was what the neocons under Clinton seemed to be intending to do.It''s interesting that many Guardian-reading ''liberals'' types are moaning about Trumps sexism and racism, yet seem to have put the issue of war and Clinton''s reputation with respect to this to one side.Lots of Trump voters are tired of US foreign military interventions and took him at his word when he stated that he wants these to end and to have better relations with Russia. But it''s apparently a bigger crime to be sexist or racist than it is to bomb women and children for dubious reasons in a far off land.For liberals or so-called moderates, especially within the media, Trump had commited a cardinal sin by being politically incorrect. It was the biggest stick they had to beat him with.

[Herman 9,717]

I said he''s divided the nation more than they ever did. Maybe try reading the whole statement instead of one line. It was only two lines long FFS.

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

I suppose it depends how you define someone who picks on racial minorities, the disabled, and describes women in terms of "you can grab them by the pussy... do anything."

You can call that politically incorrect.

You can call it divisive and insulting.

I call it the latter. You can call it the former if you choose to.

The President is supposed to unite Americans, right? Like, a figurehead, a focal point who represents the nation?

Good luck with that.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Herman"]I said he''s divided the nation more than they ever did. Maybe try reading the whole statement instead of one line. It was only two lines long FFS.[/quote]Well considering the nation wasn''t in the slight bit divided over the IRA, and I shouldn''t imagine you hear many people rooting for any other terrorists either, your statement was pretty stupid.And trivialised the death of thousands.

[93vintage 16]

If you''re pro-war you should have supported Clinton. Yet we get the Guardian readers moaning about Trump''s sexism and racism as their main issue.I think many people have been brainwashed by the media into elevating political correctness above more important issues such as war.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Buh wrote:

''''The high horse identity you tried to create with political elitism and censorship is crumbling around you

Must be terrifying reading the guardian and feeling like a dinosaur

In 2017, we take our country back. It''s not about white or black or Asian or mixed race, bisexual, dog, parrot it''s about BRITAIN. It''s about being British.

It''s not nationalism, it''s not fascism, it''s something new and it''s something you can''t comprehend. Normal decent people won''t be told we are animals anymore.''''

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Please do expand on this post Buh...

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Herman"]I said he''s divided the nation more than they ever did. Maybe try reading the whole statement instead of one line. It was only two lines long FFS.[/quote]The divisions exposed in the UK by the Referendum and the US by the Presidential Election were not created by Farage or Trump; they have been created over decades by the political elites of both countries pursuing policies which were divisive, placing the interests of minorities above those of a large and increasingly discounted segment of the majority. Trump''s "forgotten ones" have now voiced their anger, as did their like in the UK on June 23rd. These people are not revealed as racist, xenophobic, misogynist or whatever by having voted as they did; their message is simply that they have as much right as any to have their interests taken into account. 

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

If you think that political correctness is defined as equal rights for females and disabled people, then I really can''t debate you.

[westcoastcanary 173]

@93vintage

I think you attach too much importance to the wikileaks revelations and the Clinton email scandal. I don''t believe the election was won or lost on issues such as Clinton''s disregard of security or Trump''s (reputedly) unsavoury conduct etc. Trump won it because he was an outsider untainted by the political failures of the Washington elite (of both parties).

[ron obvious 1,501]

"If you think that political correctness is defined as equal rights for females and disabled people"

No, political correctness is defined as the assumption that being a member of a minority or disadvantaged group automatically endows you with a higher moral authority & value as a human being, rather than being just as diverse as the rest of us.

[morty 0]

[quote user="ron obvious"]"If you think that political correctness is defined as equal rights for females and disabled people"

No, political correctness is defined as the assumption that being a member of a minority or disadvantaged group automatically endows you with a higher moral authority & value as a human being, rather than being just as diverse as the rest of us.[/quote]As a lesbian, single parent, I''m frankly offended.

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]@93vintage

I think you attach too much importance to the wikileaks revelations and the Clinton email scandal. I don''t believe the election was won or lost on issues such as Clinton''s disregard of security or Trump''s (reputedly) unsavoury conduct etc. Trump won it because he was an outsider untainted by the political failures of the Washington elite (of both parties).[/quote]I think the FBI re-opening the Clinton investigation just reinforced your latter point.The corruption exposed by the Clinton email scandle, which besides lax security also included issues such as pay-to-play politics and obstruction of justice, was seen as part of the overall political failures of the established politicians. Trump certainly got a boost in the polls when the FBI stepped in, and it probably helped sway quite a few undecided voters. Clinton was (correctly imo) viewed as a crook who was too big to jail.

[morty 0]

What was the actual content of the emails?

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

The emails included references to foreign policy decisions, internal Washington processes, and the belief that Robert Snodgrass is a consumate professional.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="King Crimson"]The emails included references to foreign policy decisions, internal Washington processes, and the belief that Robert Snodgrass is a consumate professional.[/quote]

I see. This must be why the e-mails were so slow to emerge.

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="morty"]What was the actual content of the emails?[/quote]Amongst other things, Clinton knew that the Saudi and Qatari governments were financing and supporting ISIS, and that the Clinton Foundation accepted money from them.As Secretary of State Clinton approved arms sales to those same governments. Some of the arms almost certainly ended up in the hands of ISIS.She might have talked tough against ISIS, but her actions weren''t consistent with her rhetoric.The Pilger-Assange interview highlights the above from 4:17 onwards - [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4[/url].

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

I am struggling to picture Donald Trump facing the media after another school or college shooting.

But perhaps he will nail it by yelling into the camera "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?"

Which after all is what Barack Obama must have been thinking for the last eight years.

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

"No, political correctness is defined as the assumption that being a member of a minority or disadvantaged group automatically endows you with a higher moral authority & value as a human being, rather than being just as diverse as the rest of us."

It really isn''t... Political Correctness is a pejorative term used by people who don''t appreciate equality.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="ron obvious"]"If you think that political correctness is defined as equal rights for females and disabled people"

No, political correctness is defined as the assumption that being a member of a minority or disadvantaged group automatically endows you with a higher moral authority & value as a human being, rather than being just as diverse as the rest of us.[/quote]No, Ron. "Political correctness", a really lazy phrase with which to use as a stick to beat whatever one dislikes, has been responsible for most of the significant social advances of the last 4,000 years or so. Ideas initially put forward by small  groups of people that went against (even threatened to undermine) the established order, and so were fought tooth and nail, but now are now accepted  as obviously good.You think the world would have got democracy without - although no-one called it that then - political correctness? And within the basic concept of democracy, that you would have been given the vote? That women would have been enfranchised?We would still have slavery. The US Constitution, a much revered document cited here with admiration over the last few days, counted a slave as being worth three-fifths of a "proper" human. The whole ecology movement, to preserve species and stop unfettered industry detroying the planet, started life as almost a crank idea; the very definition of PC. I could go on...

[Van wink 2,994]

But isn''t that the problem, "political correctness" means different things to different people. Trump took a stance of being irreverently anti "political correctness" in what he said and the way he behaved, a lot of his supporters'' experience of PC was maybe summed up as.........smug, entitled, elitist, privileged leftists jumping down the throats of ordinary people who aren''t up-to-date on the latest requirements of progressive society. That is how many people experience PC, particularly in the workplace, not surprising they kicked back.

[hogesar 9,618]

Whatever we like and don''t like democracy has had it''s way in America and it''s what the people want, so let it be.

I do think Obama was a good president and I can only imagine his frustration at not being able to sort the things he wanted to - primarily i''m referring to gun control.

The big thing for me is every now and again the news coming from America might at least be vaguely interesting with Trump in.

[93vintage 16]

Political correctness, at least in modern times, started out as a daft left-wing idea where teachers were supposedly not allowed to use the word ''blackboard'' or teach kids ''Ba Ba Black Sheep'' through fear of offending black people.Eventually it grew to the point when there''s an exaggerated moralising outrage about choice of words or opinion. It''s turned into a lynch mob mentality which is related to a dubious notion of social control and the oppression of free speech, rather than anything related to a reasoned discussion about equality.There are more important issues than racism or sexism, and the election of Trump has proved this.

[ron obvious 1,501]

I suppose my basic quarrel with ''political correctness'' is that it implies that the objective reality of something is somehow subservient to its political implications. It has nothing to do with the granting of equal rights to all human beings.

Once again Monty Python comes to our rescue: witness the hapless Stan protesting about his right to have a baby.

[Yellow Wal 314]

The most amazing fact about the whole American election is that they have a population of well over 300 million and the best two candidates that they could put before their people were those two!

[morty 0]

[quote user="93vintage"][quote user="morty"]What was the actual content of the emails?[/quote]Amongst other things, Clinton knew that the Saudi and Qatari governments were financing and supporting ISIS, and that the Clinton Foundation accepted money from them.As Secretary of State Clinton approved arms sales to those same governments. Some of the arms almost certainly ended up in the hands of ISIS.She might have talked tough against ISIS, but her actions weren''t consistent with her rhetoric.The Pilger-Assange interview highlights the above from 4:17 onwards - [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4[/url].[/quote]All about business, always has been.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Qt6a-vaNM

[morty 0]

[URL=http://s869.photobucket.com/user/mortymccarthy/media/15032762_10211432278307430_1336341805276839423_n_zpshzgfelnm.jpg.html][IMG]http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab257/mortymccarthy/15032762_10211432278307430_1336341805276839423_n_zpshzgfelnm.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[TCCANARY 263]

The Saudi''s gave David Cameron a medal."David Cameron defends Britain''s alliance with Saudi Arabia and rejects accusations it funds Isis"http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-defends-britains-alliance-with-saudi-arabia-and-rejects-accusations-it-funds-isis-a6819106.html

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="93vintage"]Political correctness, at least in modern times, started out as a daft left-wing idea where teachers were supposedly not allowed to use the word ''blackboard'' or teach kids ''Ba Ba Black Sheep'' through fear of offending black people.Eventually it grew to the point when there''s an exaggerated moralising outrage about choice of words or opinion. It''s turned into a lynch mob mentality which is related to a dubious notion of social control and the oppression of free speech, rather than anything related to a reasoned discussion about equality.There are more important issues than racism or sexism, and the election of Trump has proved this.[/quote]

Says a white man

[morty 0]

[quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="93vintage"]Political correctness, at least in modern times, started out as a daft left-wing idea where teachers were supposedly not allowed to use the word ''blackboard'' or teach kids ''Ba Ba Black Sheep'' through fear of offending black people.Eventually it grew to the point when there''s an exaggerated moralising outrage about choice of words or opinion. It''s turned into a lynch mob mentality which is related to a dubious notion of social control and the oppression of free speech, rather than anything related to a reasoned discussion about equality.There are more important issues than racism or sexism, and the election of Trump has proved this.[/quote]

Says a white man[/quote]How do you know he is white?Or are you just assuming?

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="93vintage"]Political correctness, at least in modern times, started out as a daft left-wing idea where teachers were supposedly not allowed to use the word ''blackboard'' or teach kids ''Ba Ba Black Sheep'' through fear of offending black people.Eventually it grew to the point when there''s an exaggerated moralising outrage about choice of words or opinion. It''s turned into a lynch mob mentality which is related to a dubious notion of social control and the oppression of free speech, rather than anything related to a reasoned discussion about equality.There are more important issues than racism or sexism, and the election of Trump has proved this.[/quote]

Says a white man[/quote]How do you know he is white?Or are you just assuming?[/quote]

Guarantee it, one of these http://www.damemagazine.com/2016/11/01/why-i-have-no-sympathy-angry-white-men