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The American dream

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[quote user="Worthy Nigelton"]Both wins were fuelled by racism and bigotry. In what way can you not see the similarities?[/quote]My vote in regards to Brexit wasn''t fueled by racism or bigotry, neither were the votes of the vast majority of people I know who''ve discussed the situation.Why can''t people see past the minority and recognise that the majority voted not based on the above suggestions, but on what they perceived as a needed and reasonable suggestion for change and self-improvment as a country?It''s like automatically assuming that anyone white from the deep south in the US is automatically a white supremacist and clan member...in other words - unfair, and completely untrue.

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"fuelled by racism and bigotry"

What do you actually mean by that?

I voted for Brexit but don''t recognise your characterisation.

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Well, this will all interesting to see play out. I wish I was an old man who''s already made his way through life instead of someone trying to start one in this climate but whatever.

I couldn''t oppose the current UK government or Brexit any more than I do now. I find Bernie Sanders losing the Democratic vote to Hillary and then her in turn losing to Donald Trump absolutely laughable, just so funny I can''t even feel that bad about it.

So let''s see if things actually do improve from here then. I''m actually interested to see if I''ve always been totally misguided and those on the right of the political spectrum have been right all along. This period in our history will probably cement mine and many others political views for life. Conservatives are in complete control and in this country have been for a while....go on then, make things ''great again''

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[quote user="Worthy Nigelton"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman"]It''s very similar. People voted for change and if that meant ignoring any sensible argument then so be it. A hell of a lot of people went through with both without thinking of the consequences.[/quote]Its only similar to you because you didn''t want Brexit.[/quote]

Both wins were fuelled by racism and bigotry. In what way can you not see the similarities?[/quote]
How odd. My vote for Brexit was certainly not fuelled by racism or bigotry. 
I didn''t ignore other arguments either. I listened to both, and made a personal decision. I think that''s what plenty did. Don''t get me wrong, there''ll be some that made their decision and completely ignored opposing views, but that''ll have been on both sides.
To be honest, I wasn''t sure about my Brexit decision initially however having now seen that LDC has a totally opposing view i''m fairly confident I made the right call [:D]

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[quote user="Worthy Nigelton"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman"]It''s very similar. People voted for change and if that meant ignoring any sensible argument then so be it. A hell of a lot of people went through with both without thinking of the consequences.[/quote]Its only similar to you because you didn''t want Brexit.[/quote]

Both wins were fuelled by racism and bigotry. In what way can you not see the similarities?[/quote]
This is a ridiculous statement.
The truth is that not all people who voted for Trump were fuelled by racism and bigotry but all racists and bigots probably voted for Trump. I got in trouble for saying that about Brexit but I''ll stand by it again here. And I''ll go a little further and suggest that the vast majority of Trump voters were neither racists or bigots. I bet you think all football supporters are hooligans....

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Worthy Nigelton"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman"]It''s very similar. People voted for change and if that meant ignoring any sensible argument then so be it. A hell of a lot of people went through with both without thinking of the consequences.[/quote]Its only similar to you because you didn''t want Brexit.[/quote]

Both wins were fuelled by racism and bigotry. In what way can you not see the similarities?[/quote]
This is a ridiculous statement.
The truth is that not all people who voted for Trump were fuelled by racism and bigotry but all racists and bigots probably voted for Trump. I got in trouble for saying that about Brexit but I''ll stand by it again here. And I''ll go a little further and suggest that the vast majority of Trump voters were neither racists or bigots. I bet you think all football supporters are hooligans....
[/quote]

Large numbers voted for Trump because he appealed to all those backwoodsmen in rural America who had been forgotten by the Washington elite and who are the victims of the de-industrialisation that started under Reagan, but is now more commonly known as globalisation.

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Yes, voting for a megalomaniac gezillionaire businessman seemed the obvious thing to do.....

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]Vinny....

You would probably benefit from one of Crafty''s internet for beginners courses...[/quote]

Agreed.

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Worthy Nigelton"]Both wins were fuelled by racism and bigotry. In what way can you not see the similarities?[/quote]My vote in regards to Brexit wasn''t fueled by racism or bigotry, neither were the votes of the vast majority of people I know who''ve discussed the situation.Why can''t people see past the minority and recognise that the majority voted not based on the above suggestions, but on what they perceived as a needed and reasonable suggestion for change and self-improvment as a country?It''s like automatically assuming that anyone white from the deep south in the US is automatically a white supremacist and clan member...in other words - unfair, and completely untrue.[/quote]

You take 100 voters.  96 of them are decent voters.  4 are bigoted racists.   The 96 decent voters are split 50/50 - 48 for one side, 48 for the other.The other 4, who are bigoted racists are inspired to vote for the candidate who matches their jingoistic view.The vote therefore becomes 52 for the side that showed racism in their campaign, 48 against. So the racism/bigotry card wins it for those that were prepared to bring in to play  (Trump in the US, Farrage in the UK). So while all decent voters try to decide which is the best course of action despite all the hyperbole, the vote - which was marginal in the US as it was for Brexit - is won in the most indecent of ways.  It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Worthy Nigelton"]Both wins were fuelled by racism and bigotry. In what way can you not see the similarities?[/quote]My vote in regards to Brexit wasn''t fueled by racism or bigotry, neither were the votes of the vast majority of people I know who''ve discussed the situation.Why can''t people see past the minority and recognise that the majority voted not based on the above suggestions, but on what they perceived as a needed and reasonable suggestion for change and self-improvment as a country?It''s like automatically assuming that anyone white from the deep south in the US is automatically a white supremacist and clan member...in other words - unfair, and completely untrue.[/quote]

You take 100 voters.  96 of them are decent voters.  4 are bigoted racists.   The 96 decent voters are split 50/50 - 48 for one side, 48 for the other.The other 4, who are bigoted racists are inspired to vote for the candidate who matches their jingoistic view.The vote therefore becomes 52 for the side that showed racism in their campaign, 48 against. So the racism/bigotry card wins it for those that were prepared to bring in to play  (Trump in the US, Farrage in the UK). So while all decent voters try to decide which is the best course of action despite all the hyperbole, the vote - which was marginal in the US as it was for Brexit - is won in the most indecent of ways.  It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 [/quote]

This analysis makes a lot of assumptions.

The Brexit vote essentially was a sovereignty vote. Should all sovereign power be vested in Westminster or in Brussels? The British people made the correct decision in spite of the fact that the campaign lacked the kind of intellectual rigour that would have made the final result more decisive.

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[quote user="VanWink"]"fuelled by racism and bigotry"

What do you actually mean by that?

I voted for Brexit but don''t recognise your characterisation.[/quote]VanWink -- you should know by now that anybody who disagrees with a Lefty/Remaniac/Trump-hater, is a racist.  That''s their only argument.

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[quote user="Buh"]Make Britain Great Again[/quote][Y]It''s going to take a big effort by the good people of this country, but it is worth it.[url]https://www.facebook.com/stopfundinghate/videos/356313188039351/[/url]

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[quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 [/quote]There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy. [/quote]

There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.[/quote]

Sorry, Ricrado, democracy has taken a blow in the last few months.  There is shame in the way the campaigns of Brexit and the US election have been run, by all sides.  It makes a mockery of what democracy ought to be about.   It ought to be about people with high principles arguing about policies - and what do we get?   Obcsenity and  bigotry fuelled cr*p.  The messages that should have been put across have been lost in the mire of Trump and Farrage.  Insane lies and character assasinations instead of policies and argument.  And you say democracy hasn''t suffered?  

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That''s the same for any election, any year.........I agree, let''s get a dictatorship in place!

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 [/quote]There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.[/quote]

Didn''t Clinton get more votes that Trump?

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy. [/quote]

There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.[/quote]

Sorry, Ricrado, democracy has taken a blow in the last few months.  There is shame in the way the campaigns of Brexit and the US election have been run, by all sides.  It makes a mockery of what democracy ought to be about.   It ought to be about people with high principles arguing about policies - and what do we get?   Obcsenity and  bigotry fuelled cr*p.  The messages that should have been put across have been lost in the mire of Trump and Farrage.  Insane lies and character assasinations instead of policies and argument.  And you say democracy hasn''t suffered?  

[/quote]Yes, it''s funny how the losers always become all superior when things don''t go their way.Truth is LDC probably lumped on a Remain/ Clinton double and both b*stards let him down....[;)]

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[quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 [/quote]There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.[/quote]

Didn''t Clinton get more votes that Trump?

[/quote]I am sure you are aware of how the system works in USA.

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Yep she did, and in the UK our current government got just over a third of the people''s votes.

Democracy is actually something quite specific, and in the UK we don''t get anywhere near it.

In the States they have a very binary version which almost by definition can''t deliver it either.

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Herman

If you''ve got your dreadlocks in a twist over trump and brexit you are not going to like what comes next

And no, it''s not some genocide, you can cry "haven''t we seen this before in nazi germany myahhhh myahhh pass a humus felicity!"

It''s the reformation of British identity

Get the net, or move to France and get a good seat to watch them leave the EU

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 [/quote]There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.[/quote]

Didn''t Clinton get more votes that Trump?

[/quote]I am sure you are aware of how the system works in USA.[/quote]

Yes, so you agree that you definition isn''t correct in this case.

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[quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 [/quote]There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.[/quote]

Didn''t Clinton get more votes that Trump?

[/quote]I am sure you are aware of how the system works in USA.[/quote]

Yes, so you agree that you definition isn''t correct in this case.

[/quote]Not at all, the President is elected by Electoral College votes and Trump won by a convincing majority.

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[quote user="Buh"]Herman

If you''ve got your dreadlocks in a twist over trump and brexit you are not going to like what comes next

And no, it''s not some genocide, you can cry "haven''t we seen this before in nazi germany myahhhh myahhh pass a humus felicity!"

It''s the reformation of British identity

Get the net, or move to France and get a good seat to watch them leave the EU[/quote]

On it''s current trajectory it''s going to be a ugly identity and not the one thousands of good and honest British people died for.And no, I don''t believe all Leave voters are Nazi''s, but you laid down with dogs and now the whole country has fleas.

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[quote user="Herman"][quote user="Buh"]Herman

If you''ve got your dreadlocks in a twist over trump and brexit you are not going to like what comes next

And no, it''s not some genocide, you can cry "haven''t we seen this before in nazi germany myahhhh myahhh pass a humus felicity!"

It''s the reformation of British identity

Get the net, or move to France and get a good seat to watch them leave the EU[/quote]

On it''s current trajectory it''s going to be a ugly identity and not the one thousands of good and honest British people died for.And no, I don''t believe all Leave voters are Nazi''s, but you laid down with dogs and now the whole country has fleas.

[/quote]On the whole you usually talk mostly sense.But you really have to stop tripping over your bottom lip about this Brexit thing now.[:)][;)]

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="lake district canary"]It''s been a shameful few months for democracy.

 [/quote]There is nothing shameful about Democracy. It is what it is and merely reflects the will of the majority.What is shameful however is the losing side attempting to subvert and second guess the result because their views failed to carry the day.[/quote]

Didn''t Clinton get more votes that Trump?

[/quote]I am sure you are aware of how the system works in USA.[/quote]

Yes, so you agree that you definition isn''t correct in this case.

[/quote]Not at all, the President is elected by Electoral College votes and Trump won by a convincing majority.[/quote]

This doesn''t make you original statement correct.You are allowed to get things wrong, we won''t think any less of you.

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