lake district canary 4,520 Posted November 21, 2016 There is a similarity to last time we were relegated. Both times done well in the first few weeks of the following season, both times getting to the top of the table and then falling away. Showing a bit of positivity in the new league until reality sets in and other teams get the measure of you. That, last time, resulted in the manager not being able to carry on as he was too inexperienced and the pressure told on him. But this time we have a manager proven to be strong enough, both in Scotland and then with us. And he has experience of getting us promotion. My point is that we are having to adjust like we did last time. Adams started it before he left by making us harder to beat and sacrificing a bit of flair - but it worked. AN carried it on and raised the level enough to get us promotion. It''s a question of adjustment, not wholesale change.Now my idea of adjusting is not to throw away a capable young manager, but to let him and the team find the right balance. Second half against QPR they improved, so we are told. Let''s see how that works at Derby and whether we have turned the corner. If we have, then it bodes well for the rest of the season. AN made us almost unbeatable last time and got us from roughly where we are now, back up to the top. So I would say be patient. Keep calm and let the professionals get on with their job and let them find the adjustment they need to make. We''re not Newcastle with all their resources, we''re not Brighton, who have had two seasons under a new manager to build at this level. We are a club that has just got relegated and is still coming to terms with that. There is plenty of time to put a run together to get back towards the top, we simply have to keep calm, focussed and positive. Difficult to do that as fans, I know, when the team are on a bad run, but that is what is needed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,503 Posted November 21, 2016 So in conclusion, we''re doing exactly the same as we did when, according to you, we had a manager that was too inexperienced and couldn''t cope with pressure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dibbler 0 Posted November 21, 2016 People like you, like Delia will kill this club.Take the blinkers off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mello Yello 2,265 Posted November 21, 2016 Excuses......Excuses.......Excuses.......After a wobbly an'' shaky start......the current league leaders of the Championship have gone 5 points clear and seem to be adjusting quite well to this league......Villa are also starting to get their act together......Where as we are erm?....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 Its easy to play well when you are two nil down, whats needed is playing well from the outset and being brave.Yes, the players need to take just criticism, but its really starting to look like the manager can no longer inspire belief in them.The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday, what happens next week at Derby will either confirm or refute what I have said above about belief and motivation.I have supported Alex Neil, and I totally buy into not changing just for changes sake, but as soon as a manager can''t inspire his players, the writing is on the wall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,239 Posted November 21, 2016 I think the Derby game will be key. A bad defeat there and it would be cruel and unusual punishment to allow him to face the next home match.I sincerely hope it doesn''t happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="ricardo"]I think the Derby game will be key. A bad defeat there and it would be cruel and unusual punishment to allow him to face the next home match.I sincerely hope it doesn''t happen.[/quote]If its a no show at Derby, he won''t make the next home game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,291 Posted November 21, 2016 h should not be making the Derby game. I will be very angry if he is still in place.Our teams who played on Saturday have all played lots and lots of championship football. There should be nothing in this division that is a surprise to them. The level of the performances (even some of those when we were winning) is massively sub standard and is inexecusable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Making Plans 929 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairy Canary 628 Posted November 21, 2016 The crux of that argument LCD pre-supposes that we have a capable young manager in charge. If that were the case then yes, hold fire, be patient and it will come good. Unfortunately there is limited evidence to support that view and if anything he seems to be struggling to adapt or learn from previous set backs. If the players start losing confidence in the manager''s ability there really is no way of recovering. I like the guy as a person. He tells it as he sees it in a refreshingly straight and honest way but actions speak louder than words and in the end it will be results that determine his future. Whatever happens he doesn''t deserve a Worthington/Barnsley scenario which I fear would happen if you had your way. I hope the board learnt from that to make sure it doesn''t happen again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round.[/quote]Thats because you weren''t at the game.There was a resigned apathy as soon as we went down to ten men, and resigned grumbling at the full time whistle.Had we lost with 11 men on the pitch, that resigned grumbling would have been a lot angrier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,291 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="morty"][quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round.[/quote]Thats because you weren''t at the game.There was a resigned apathy as soon as we went down to ten men, and resigned grumbling at the full time whistle.Had we lost with 11 men on the pitch, that resigned grumbling would have been a lot angrier.[/quote]I was at the game and to be honest I don''t think there was anyone sitting anywhere near me who was backing Neil. He was being openly ridiculed for most of the match as he stood there doing nothing at all for most of the second half. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round.[/quote]Thats because you weren''t at the game.There was a resigned apathy as soon as we went down to ten men, and resigned grumbling at the full time whistle.Had we lost with 11 men on the pitch, that resigned grumbling would have been a lot angrier.[/quote]I was at the game and to be honest I don''t think there was anyone sitting anywhere near me who was backing Neil. He was being openly ridiculed for most of the match as he stood there doing nothing at all for most of the second half.[/quote]You kinda would say that though Jim, wouldn''t you?I have seen people allude to similar, but near me, yeah people are annoyed, but was it all directed at the manager? No. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,291 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round.[/quote]Thats because you weren''t at the game.There was a resigned apathy as soon as we went down to ten men, and resigned grumbling at the full time whistle.Had we lost with 11 men on the pitch, that resigned grumbling would have been a lot angrier.[/quote]I was at the game and to be honest I don''t think there was anyone sitting anywhere near me who was backing Neil. He was being openly ridiculed for most of the match as he stood there doing nothing at all for most of the second half.[/quote]You kinda would say that though Jim, wouldn''t you?I have seen people allude to similar, but near me, yeah people are annoyed, but was it all directed at the manager? No.[/quote]Olsson was stupid that is true. Interestingly Olsson seems to have a habit of managing to get himself sent off when he''s not happy with life and perhaps doesn''t fancy the manager much. That said, the key point is that the red card (or if it hadn''t been a red card it would have been an early goal) came once again because of basic failings in the defence. Failure to mark, failure to communicate and failure to deal with crosses or long throws into the box. that''s why sympathy for the manager should be reduced because those failings are the same ones he''s been unable to address for more than a year so he should not get a great deal of sympathy when an early red card results directly from them. Indeed neither of QPR''s goals were really down to us having 10 men, they were just down to poor defending and not doing the basics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round.[/quote]Thats because you weren''t at the game.There was a resigned apathy as soon as we went down to ten men, and resigned grumbling at the full time whistle.Had we lost with 11 men on the pitch, that resigned grumbling would have been a lot angrier.[/quote]I was at the game and to be honest I don''t think there was anyone sitting anywhere near me who was backing Neil. He was being openly ridiculed for most of the match as he stood there doing nothing at all for most of the second half.[/quote]You kinda would say that though Jim, wouldn''t you?I have seen people allude to similar, but near me, yeah people are annoyed, but was it all directed at the manager? No.[/quote]Olsson was stupid that is true. Interestingly Olsson seems to have a habit of managing to get himself sent off when he''s not happy with life and perhaps doesn''t fancy the manager much. That said, the key point is that the red card (or if it hadn''t been a red card it would have been an early goal) came once again because of basic failings in the defence. Failure to mark, failure to communicate and failure to deal with crosses or long throws into the box. that''s why sympathy for the manager should be reduced because those failings are the same ones he''s been unable to address for more than a year so he should not get a great deal of sympathy when an early red card results directly from them. Indeed neither of QPR''s goals were really down to us having 10 men, they were just down to poor defending and not doing the basics.[/quote]That we agree on.Which is why the players have to take a large portion of the blame, not just the manager. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 I would rather keep Alex Neil, I actually see what Lakey is getting at.But the fact is that we are in freefall, and something has to change.And quick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vazzza 62 Posted November 21, 2016 I''m with Jim on this one I''m afraid. The fans around me (lower tier, just outside the left hand post) were definitely not holding back in voicing their opinion towards Neil. I think the guy who managed to abuse the lady working in the kiosk at half time to the point where they had to stop serving and close the shutters wins the prize for top idiot though. Was actually quite ambarassed to be a Norwich fan at that point for the first time in my life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="Vazzza"]I''m with Jim on this one I''m afraid. The fans around me (lower tier, just outside the left hand post) were definitely not holding back in voicing their opinion towards Neil. I think the guy who managed to abuse the lady working in the kiosk at half time to the point where they had to stop serving and close the shutters wins the prize for top idiot though. Was actually quite ambarassed to be a Norwich fan at that point for the first time in my life.[/quote]Haha, I was standing right next to him, hoping to buy a beer, and I was thinking "Mate, leave it, this is only going to end one way".Their catering facilities were woeful though. I went in 5 minutes early to join the queue, and never really got near the front of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,291 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round.[/quote]Thats because you weren''t at the game.There was a resigned apathy as soon as we went down to ten men, and resigned grumbling at the full time whistle.Had we lost with 11 men on the pitch, that resigned grumbling would have been a lot angrier.[/quote]I was at the game and to be honest I don''t think there was anyone sitting anywhere near me who was backing Neil. He was being openly ridiculed for most of the match as he stood there doing nothing at all for most of the second half.[/quote]You kinda would say that though Jim, wouldn''t you?I have seen people allude to similar, but near me, yeah people are annoyed, but was it all directed at the manager? No.[/quote]Olsson was stupid that is true. Interestingly Olsson seems to have a habit of managing to get himself sent off when he''s not happy with life and perhaps doesn''t fancy the manager much. That said, the key point is that the red card (or if it hadn''t been a red card it would have been an early goal) came once again because of basic failings in the defence. Failure to mark, failure to communicate and failure to deal with crosses or long throws into the box. that''s why sympathy for the manager should be reduced because those failings are the same ones he''s been unable to address for more than a year so he should not get a great deal of sympathy when an early red card results directly from them. Indeed neither of QPR''s goals were really down to us having 10 men, they were just down to poor defending and not doing the basics.[/quote]That we agree on.Which is why the players have to take a large portion of the blame, not just the manager.[/quote]They are certainly not blameless no. Several of them are playing well, well below the level they are capable of and I suspect that when we have a new manager we will see their form and commitment miraculously pick up. unfortunately with football twas ever thus!Ultimately though when whatever combination you put out of experienced (and in most cases international) defenders and midfielders can''t do the basics such as mark players or pass to each other then surely you also have to question the coaching? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
havemyhowsonit 0 Posted November 21, 2016 Hang on I''m just adjusting to your BS ldc.....Yeah done you''re deluded Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="morty"]The early sending off bought Alex a lot of sympathy for Saturday[/quote]Don''t see why it should and I haven''t seen much of it.Less than a minute into the game and we were still asleep. If it hadn''t been red it would have been a goal. Neither scenario should give either the players or the manager any reason for sympathy.We we''re out thought by Holloway and it was bad preparation and even worse concentration.The sending off cannot be used as an excuse to gloss over what was another poor effort all round.[/quote]Thats because you weren''t at the game.There was a resigned apathy as soon as we went down to ten men, and resigned grumbling at the full time whistle.Had we lost with 11 men on the pitch, that resigned grumbling would have been a lot angrier.[/quote]I was at the game and to be honest I don''t think there was anyone sitting anywhere near me who was backing Neil. He was being openly ridiculed for most of the match as he stood there doing nothing at all for most of the second half.[/quote]You kinda would say that though Jim, wouldn''t you?I have seen people allude to similar, but near me, yeah people are annoyed, but was it all directed at the manager? No.[/quote]Olsson was stupid that is true. Interestingly Olsson seems to have a habit of managing to get himself sent off when he''s not happy with life and perhaps doesn''t fancy the manager much. That said, the key point is that the red card (or if it hadn''t been a red card it would have been an early goal) came once again because of basic failings in the defence. Failure to mark, failure to communicate and failure to deal with crosses or long throws into the box. that''s why sympathy for the manager should be reduced because those failings are the same ones he''s been unable to address for more than a year so he should not get a great deal of sympathy when an early red card results directly from them. Indeed neither of QPR''s goals were really down to us having 10 men, they were just down to poor defending and not doing the basics.[/quote]That we agree on.Which is why the players have to take a large portion of the blame, not just the manager.[/quote]They are certainly not blameless no. Several of them are playing well, well below the level they are capable of and I suspect that when we have a new manager we will see their form and commitment miraculously pick up. unfortunately with football twas ever thus!Ultimately though when whatever combination you put out of experienced (and in most cases international) defenders and midfielders can''t do the basics such as mark players or pass to each other then surely you also have to question the coaching?[/quote]No, not really.These guys are all in their 20''s and 30''s. They have likely been playing football since they were 5 or 6 years old. It is their job, they make a good living from it.Alex Neil does not coach them to not win headers, not mark players, or not track runners. However poorly you think of him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lake district canary 4,520 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="hogesar"]So in conclusion, we''re doing exactly the same as we did when, according to you, we had a manager that was too inexperienced and couldn''t cope with pressure.[/quote]No, I''m saying we''re going through a process that is less to do with the manager and more to do with the relegation factor. That Adams had to leave the position is not the issue, the issue is about adjusting - and Adams started that adjustment before he left. AN was merely the steel that enabled the team to be at it''s best for the rest of the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 As soon as a manager loses the ability to inspire his team, its over.I shall be at Derby next week, and what happens there will be an indicator as to whether or not he can still inspire the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,503 Posted November 21, 2016 Pretty much with you there Morty. You''re not doing club cabbage are you... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morty 0 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="hogesar"]Pretty much with you there Morty. You''re not doing club cabbage are you...[/quote]No mate, I''m actually driving for a change.Which may be a mistake, as I reckon a few beers may definitely help on Saturday.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 4,660 Posted November 21, 2016 Club cabbage in crisis ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feel The Force 0 Posted November 21, 2016 Too many current Norwich players know they are not good enough for the Premier League. They have been there and failed already. What is their motivation to get promoted? To fail again or to be moved on before they even get that chance. We should be good enough to get promoted this season but only a few are hungry for it and they are the ones that are performing. The old quotes of ‘they know the championship’ ‘they’ve done it before’ are the very things that are holding this squad back. Perhaps things will turn around but mentally we’re a bag of nerves and mistakes at the back (which IMO starts with the goalkeeper/s). If possible I would recall Rudd and Maddison and play the talented youngsters more often – Prichard, both Murpheys, Thompson. At least they will play without fear and have something to prove. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coq au vin 0 Posted November 21, 2016 Good post FTF Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,503 Posted November 21, 2016 [quote user="morty"][quote user="hogesar"]Pretty much with you there Morty. You''re not doing club cabbage are you...[/quote]No mate, I''m actually driving for a change.Which may be a mistake, as I reckon a few beers may definitely help on Saturday....[/quote]Tell me about it. My laziness of not organising away days means i''ve pulled the short straw and also happen to be driving. Booooo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Woodman 92 Posted November 21, 2016 poor defending and not doing the basics. That we agree on.Which is why the players have to take a large portion of the blame, not just the manager.This begs the question why aren''t they doing it? We''ve established that they are experienced players, who''ve played together in the Championship and the Premiership. What''s suddenly changed and turned them into a leaky defence that can''t do the basics? Have they given up on the Manager? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites