Food for thought?...

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Was just reading this piece on Sir Alex Ferguson''s fledgling career at Manchester United. Some interesting parallels there... We could sack Alex Neil tomorrow and I would understand it, but the flip side here is total proof here that sometimes you have to ride through the storm to get back to beautiful weather...

''The overhaul initially looked as if it would bear fruit with a 4-1 drubbing of Arsenal on the opening day of the new season, but four defeats in their next six games (including a 5-1 thrashing by Man City at Maine Road) saw the detractors begin to gain support. Ferguson bemoaned the club''s heavy injury problems - especially with Webb snapping his Achilles tendon a few games into his United career while on England duty - but an infamous banner declaring "Three years of excuses and it''s still crap... ta-ra Fergie" was soon displayed at Old Trafford, and the calls for the manager''s sacking grew louder.

Yet, back against the wall, Fergie undertook what would be the first of many rearguard actions. In October and November, United turned around their early-season form and won four of seven going into December. It mattered little to the baying press pack as their one defeat, to Charlton, in the midst of the run saw the Daily Express ''s Steve Curry write an article entitled ''Fergie the Flop!'' which referenced the fact that he had ''''the worst record of any United manager of modern times''''. Curry threatened that when the paying public become ''''disenchanted, as they are doing now, then the wind of change blows in over Stretford".

Indeed, December brought with it a cold wind. Ferguson had claimed that it was ''''a hell of burden running a club that hasn''t won the title for 23 years and thinks it should do every season.'''' But soon he would have more of a weight on his shoulders and he struggled to make his expensively assembled machine run smoothly.

The lead-up to Christmas saw four defeats in five - to Arsenal, Crystal Palace, Spurs and Aston Villa - with only a 0-0 draw which they dominated at Anfield a positive sign. The reaction was more anger from the fans typified by Richard Kurt who remembered in his book ''United We Stood'' the reaction to the 3-0 hammering by Spurs: ''''Humiliated three-nil, we jeered them off the pitch and vented our rage at the manager and chairman [Martin Edwards]."

More pressure from the media followed, which ultimately saw the Daily Express ''s John Bean write under a headline of ''Fergie''s last stand'' on December 28 that a bad result in ten days'' time against Nottingham Forest in the third round of the FA Cup would make his position ''''untenable''''.

''''League games at Wimbledon on Saturday and against QPR at Old Trafford on New Year''s Day are important to Ferguson''s immediate future,'''' wrote Bean. ''''But United''s Cup result against Nottingham Forest is absolutely crucial... and he knows it.''''

Ferguson, for his part, admitted as much: ''''Everyone seems to have set the Cup tie as my trial. I can cope with that because I know that I am doing the job the right way and the motivation of the players is no problem. We simply have to get on with it and remember that the game will be as hard for Forest as it will be for us.''''

After a 2-2 draw with Wimbledon and a 0-0 draw with QPR that saw United''s team booed off by their own fans, they faced their FA Cup test with the threat of the axe looming. With United having won just nine of 35 games since their 2-1 home defeat by Norwich in February, the form book favoured Forest who were in mid-table in the league and in the process of winning the League Cup for the second season running.

On hostile turf at the City ground, and with a controversial Sixth Round exit at the hands of Brian Clough''s men the previous year still fresh in memory, the pressure was on Fergie as Kurt remembers: "The sense of the time was that a knock-out by Forest would release the Edwards butcher''s chopper."

The game itself was not an especially memorable one, with the tension palpable. New defensive signing Gary Pallister helped to keep the Forest attack at bay and, according to the Guardian ''s David Lacey, ensured that the home side ''''did not get a serious sight of goal until the end of the match when they pushed forward in desperate numbers". With Des Walker playing a similarly solid role for Forest at the back, Lacey described the first-half as ''''tightly contested and dour to the naked eye... [it] made dreary watching on television''''.

However, the break that United (and Ferguson) needed came soon into the second half as Lee Martin kept the ball in play and fed Mark Hughes, who struck a devilish pass with the outside of his right boot across the box to the waiting Mark Robins. Robins, one of the original batch of ''Fergie''s Fledglings'' - alongside the likes of Martin and Russell Beardsmore - had only just turned 20 and was making only his third first-team appearance, but nodded home calmly to put United ahead. The Red Devils would hold on to the 1-0 scoreline, despite a late disallowed goal from Forest''s Nigel Jemson jangling the nerves, and claimed a vital win.

Fergie''s focus on youth had paid off in what many considered to be the defining match of his United career. More to the point, Ferguson still does, and always did.

What happened next?

United''s next game resulted in a 2-1 defeat to Derby County at Old Trafford and it would be a further two until they claimed a win - away at Millwall. Ferguson later described December 1989 as "the darkest period [he had] ever suffered in the game" but the new year would be the start of a mini-revival as he led his team to six wins out of their next ten games to finish the season in 13th place, five points ahead of relegated Sheffield Wednesday. Any dwindling thoughts from the board that Ferguson was not the right man for the job quickly vanished as he picked up his first trophy for the club by defeating Crystal Palace in a replayed FA Cup final, having played every round in the competition away from home. Lee Martin scored the only goal in the final replay.

The Cup win proved to be the catalyst for much more and, while then-chairman Edwards later insisted that he would still have given Ferguson more time if they had lost to Forest, the importance of that campaign cannot be understated. A year later, Fergie gave himself yet more breathing space by winning the European Cup Winners'' Cup in 1991, but the Premier League and his path to greatness was on the horizon; the rest is history.''

© ESPN Sports Media Ltd.

[OldRobert 38]

Fergie says: I can cope with that because I know that I am doing the job the right way and the motivation of the players is no problem.I do wonder if AN can say the same thing.

[Move Klose 303]

Fergie had managed nearly 600 games before rocking up at old Trafford winning 3 Scottish prem titles, 5 scottish cups, UEFA cup & UEFA super cup so obviously had a bit about him.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

As Move Klose, sorry Alex.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

Plus I think football was a bit different in the 80s...

Were clubs completely dependent on the TV money that being in the top flight brings?

[Captain Birdseye 0]

I have up on this thread after the 100000 word

[Alex Moss 2,165]

No problem folks, that''s what I put it on here for, your thoughts, so respect all opinions. But the loss of Pinto is our Webb and you can''t take that away from me, alright? 😂

[Move Klose 303]

Pinto & Howson have been huge losses for us. Pinto isn''t even a good defender but he''s good going forward and he certainly looks like he cares and gives his all.

Miss Howson energy, Tettey well has been pretty awfull and I struggle to see what Dorrans is bringing to the table. Sooner Howson is back and next to Thompson the better.

[Year of the tiger 52]

Trouble is next week as it stands we have only one fit available midfielder, & unfortunately his form has been dire.

If we had signed athletic powerful midfielders in the summer the ''fans'' would be up in arms but sorry that is what we need in the Championship not delicate number 10s

[Coq au vin 0]

Howson is now?!

[Alex Moss 2,165]

I have long thought that a lot of the mess we''re in coincides with both Pinto and Howson missing for us. They have been 2 key players this season, and it''s funny how our fortunes have changed since we lost the pair of them. Both extremely hard working and in the case of Howson, I think he very quietly galvanises the team together - something that''s been severely lacking since his injury. I like Tettey, but he hasn''t be the player he can be for quite some time, in my limited opinion.

[Indy 3,283]

Sorry Alex but the reality is we''ve beaten teams in the bottom 8 of this division and not beaten any team half decent, in fact we''ve looked bloody awful recently.

Yep I appreciate your view on Neil but he''s not on the same planer never mind ball park as Fergy was. I just don''t see this love for an absolutely awful man manager with the tactical nouse of a bingo caller!

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Well I don''t know Indy, because only time will tell how good a manager he becomes, hence my ''food for thought'' post. None of us know in all honesty. But what I would stand by is that I do not believe our downturn in results was a coincidence after losing Howson and Pinto. 2 really key players I feel, and results suggest that too.

[Indy 3,283]

No doubt we mis them both, Pinto has been superb, but when fit we didn''t manage to beat the better teams even with them in the starting 11.

I just don''t buy losing those two has been the catalyst to our poor form, we just don''t win any games we go behind in, we don''t defend well even with Pinto,just think Neil is way out of his depth and no other club our size would have gambled on such a novice, I get the impression we are regarded as a very backward club by players and managers of the next standard, so or choices are always going to be limited.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

There is no doubt we miss them both, and with Pinto''s "never say die" attitude you feel he drags others along with him, and any team would be better with Howson in it. So definitely right on those 2 Alex.

[lake district canary 4,531]

I can''t agree that Howson and Pinto being injured is in any way an excuse for our poor form.   The squad is full of quality and although those two would be first choicers, we should be able to do well without them, too.  As for the Fergy point, I''ve made this several times and I''ve said it already today on another thread - if you stick with someone you believe in, they will come good in the end.  The problem is, fans don''t have the long view that club owners do - they want it and they want it now. That is one reason why I say that the board should not be influenced too much by fans.   You an understand why fans get frustrated, but there is a longer term view - and our club would benefit from a stability of management.  AN has shown quality and it is only 18 months since Wembley and only a month since he was manager of the month having seen 7 wins out of 8.  Things are difficult, but not insurmountable - and given time, AN could be our Fergy.......

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

Man Utd signed Pallister and we would sign Titus Bramble.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

I would say losing 2 key players is certainly a contributing factor, Lakey, though not the only reason of course! Yes we have plenty of great players on their day, but the difference was at least Pinto and Howson were more ''on their day'' than off, and that does kind of help!. We were hardly spectacular overall when they were in the side, but perhaps those narrow wins came from having that extra 20% tipping the balance. Just a thought.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Alex "]I would say losing 2 key players is certainly a contributing factor, Lakey, though not the only reason of course! Yes we have plenty of great players on their day, but the difference was at least Pinto and Howson were more ''on their day'' than off, and that does kind of help!. We were hardly spectacular overall when they were in the side, but perhaps those narrow wins came from having that extra 20% tipping the balance. Just a thought.[/quote]Completely agree re Howson. Massively underrated, and a huge miss.

[Drazen Muzinic 1,444]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I can''t agree that Howson and Pinto being injured is in any way an excuse for our poor form.   The squad is full of quality and although those two would be first choicers, we should be able to do well without them, too.  As for the Fergy point, I''ve made this several times and I''ve said it already today on another thread - if you stick with someone you believe in, they will come good in the end.  The problem is, fans don''t have the long view that club owners do - they want it and they want it now. That is one reason why I say that the board should not be influenced too much by fans.   You an understand why fans get frustrated, but there is a longer term view - and our club would benefit from a stability of management.  AN has shown quality and it is only 18 months since Wembley and only a month since he was manager of the month having seen 7 wins out of 8.  Things are difficult, but not insurmountable - and given time, AN could be our Fergy.......

[/quote]

In the same way Rudd could be our De Gea..?

[hogesar 9,611]

"if you stick with someone you believe in they will come good in the end".

In terms of terminally moronic statements this takes the biscuit, cake and bloody three course meal.

Is it a definite science? Regardless of ability if you stick with someone they''ll be successful. Make me manager then. Stick with me. I''ll be successful. Not sure at what point. League 2 maybe?

Jesus wept.

[Mello Yello 2,273]

I do hope we stick with Nephew Tom.......He''ll probably be a great and exceptional owner of the club sometime in the distant future.......Just give him time.......however long it may take....

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="hogesar"]"if you stick with someone you believe in they will come good in the end".

In terms of terminally moronic statements this takes the biscuit, cake and bloody three course meal.

Is it a definite science? Regardless of ability if you stick with someone they''ll be successful. Make me manager then. Stick with me. I''ll be successful. Not sure at what point. League 2 maybe?

Jesus wept.[/quote]

If you believe in someone, you do it for a reason - either because of their abilities or because of their character, or both.  So if you think sticking with someone you believe in is moronic, then you plainly haven''t lived. 

[westcoastcanary 173]

It''s a relief to know that there''s no such thing as a confidence trick, though I''m not sure how to convince victims of so-called confidence tricksters that all they needed to do was keep the faith ...........[:D]

[paddycanary 538]

Virtually impossible for us on the outside looking in to pinpoint why our form has dropped. We can only speculate and (stating the obvious!) it''s most likely a combination of different factors. We can''t say for sure if AN has lost the confidence & backing of his players. Personally, I don''t think it''s as simple as that. It looks like Brady, Olsson & Naismith could all be unsettled and, on form, all three should be guaranteed starters in the present squad at Championship level. If true, is this AN''s fault? Quite possible. Would this attitude filter through negatively onto others? Surely yes.

Three months ago, our midfield options looked very rosy indeed and we were looking at the usual areas of centre-back & centre-forward/striker as potentially problematic. Although often isolated, Jerome has performed well and stayed injury-free. Wes'' form has dropped off recently and he''s been identified by coaches as the key to stopping our primary possession in the opposition half. AN''s attacking philosophy hinges on his two full-backs getting forward, keeping solid across the middle while protecting the centre-backs (the kind of role he played himself until quite recently) with a creative player and usually one wide attacking player tasked with ''picking the lock.''

Pinto looks like he might be the player to solve our ongoing right-back conundrum - losing him has been a blow and Jacob Murphy isn''t ready to compensate for this loss in either half. Whittaker would probably have filled the gap adequately in the interim (he was given that contract to be a back-up) but he was also out so we''re back again to the perennial Russell Martin debate. It''s no coincidence that we''re leaking so many chances from the right side of the pitch. If Olsson and Brady on the other side are both ''stamping their feet'', it doesn''t take a genius to predict the consequences. Can AN afford to leave players of their quality out? Of course we don''t know the ins & outs.

And in midfield, sadly it looks like Alex Tettey is a diminished force and he is fundamental to AN''s approach. Losing Howson is a double-blow and I believe this is where our main issues lie. Mulumbu was signed to provide competition for Tettey but has proved disastrous. Dorrans is another back-up player. Although there''s potential, it''s unrealistic to pin our hopes of promotion on Louis Thompson in the engine room. In my opinion, a solid & reliable defensive midfielder is where we most need to strengthen in January. Pritchard might become increasingly important this season further up the pitch, but he hasn''t seen much pitch time as of yet. Jury''s still out there. I also don''t think Maddison returning is the answer yet - he''s gaining valuable experience and hopefully we''ll reap the benefit in the future.

We need Klose to lead from the back and snuff out Championship attackers. He seems to be going backwards, getting caught up in the same malaise we can all see, making basic errors. Is this down to AN? Possibly, but it could also be the lack of protection from further out the field. Bennett or Martin alongside Klose should be (on paper) a very solid pairing at this level and they''ve also been pretty much injury-free this season.

Of concern is what looks to be too many important players out of form, e.g. Klose, Olsson, Brady, Wes, Tettey, Naismith (can we add Bennett & Martin to that list?). It matters not who''s in goal if all these players are liable to make basic errors or not give everything. For me, this is the biggest pointer to why AN might be getting his cards soon. If players with their quality & experience aren''t playing for him, he''s on a hiding to nothing. Our ''Fergie''? It would be great and we''d all love it to happen. Since his arrival he''s shown a willingness & desire to build a young talented squad for 3 or 4 years down the line. But the next few games will tell us if he''ll be around to see these lads come through.

If he can''t turn it around soon and we drop out of the top six, sadly he''ll be typing up a new CV and Jez will need to live up to that surname.

A couple of good performances and a few points on the board changes everything - What''s going to happen? More speculation, that''s sport!

Apologies for length of post - I''m off to bed!

[Chemical Bro 0]

Our performances were not great even with Howson and Pinto in the side. Yes we were winning just about but mainly against the bottom sides.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Chemical Bro"]Our performances were not great even with Howson and Pinto in the side. Yes we were winning just about but mainly against the bottom sides.[/quote]Yeah but we were at least winning.We''ll never know if having Pinto and Howson would have helped us win more games recently, but I''d wager having them available wouldn''t have done any harm.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Its not that difficult to pinpoint why our form has dropped. Our form has dropped because we are playing sh*t and because we cannot do the basics right defensively so we ship goals. This was even the case during the much lauded 7 wins in 8 (possibly the least impressive winning streak I''ve ever witnessed in terms of the quality of our play) but we were getting away with it, in part because we were largely playing weaker teams who did not punish us for our slackness/sloppiness.

It was pretty obvious to anyone who has watched a bit of football that we would not get away with playing so poorly once we faced stronger sides and now we are not even getting away with it against ordinary mid table teams like QPR and Leeds because with a couple of defeats the confidence has gone and our deterioration has been accelerated.

[Bagster 101]

Maybe its the fact that other managers have had time to have a look at us, even when we were winning we were leaking nearly as many as we were scoring.

Tactically AN has been sussed and he seems at a loss to what he should do about it. Maybe wes has not dropped his form maybe other managers know he is what makes us tick and are snuffing him out.

Our defensive unit has been appalling and looked shaky all season long but AN cant seem to sort it out.

Our substitutions are a little bizarre at times.

The fact is AN had a brilliant first six months but he came with his confidence sky high and it rubbed off on the players,but that infamous newcastle game changed him he has not found his mojo on a consistant basis since then.

In the last 18 months he has managed to get wins in little clumps but rarely have we seen anything consistant.

I would love to think that he is the one but nothing I have seen in the last 18 months proves that.

His man management hasn''t improved, his organisation hasn''t improved, he has spent a lot of money on players he doesn''t seem to fancy. If I thought he was improving then I would be happy to stick with him but he is not.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

[quote user="Chemical Bro"]Our performances were not great even with Howson and Pinto in the side. Yes we were winning just about but mainly against the bottom sides.[/quote]

Which is what I said, but at least we were getting scrappy wins. It of course has more to do with just losing Pinto and Howson but how any other folk don''t think it has made any difference whatsoever is beyond me, of course we won''t be as quite as effective without 2 of our better players who were coincidentally on form. I''m not sure when Howson''s due back but I hope he''s not too far behind the likes of Pinto. I''ll also be pleased to see Jarvis, Mulumbu etc come back into contention ASAP - it can only be a good thing.