'Cruel' to be kind

[Hairy Canary 668]

The thing with rolling dice is that the result is totally random. These sort of decisions are not. They''re a judgement call based on a range of evidence. We are all party to some of that evidence, namely the results and performances on the pitch.

I agree with Nutty in so much as the board have made a decision, albeit one that many, including myself, will find unfathonable. They have decided that the most likely way to achieve their stated aim of promotion is to stick with AN. At the end of the day that is their prerogative.

My long held view is that he should have gone last Christmas lathough I do accept it''s much easier to come to a decision like this from an armchair away from the reality.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Capt. Pants"]It was only at the AGM on November 23rd that the Board gave the manager their full support and backing, their hardly likely to sack him after a mere three games later? I think they''ll just hang him out to dry like they did with Worthy and Hughton in the hope he might resign. Whilst it might be a roll of the dice, keeping Neil is a far greater risk than sacking him now, otherwise our better players will jump ship and whilst it might not be this season I can see us hurtling towards League One with him in control.[/quote]relegated by Xmas, if not by Easter

[norfolkngood 1,086]

He has to go We have a manager who comes out and states he made a mistake tactics / line up

then we have a player stating we were just going through the motions and we will put it right against Villa

they must think the Fans are stupid people pay very good money to watch and follow their team home and away and you go through the motions !

It will not go on to be as bad as the chase days football crowds have changed anyone who was there at the time will tell you that it was terrible scenes outside the main stand after matches and with cctv etc they will not ever be repeated

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I do mean that. This idea that a decision is only a decision if you agree with it stinks of arrogance. I trust the board to get it right far more than i trust you and Jim Smith. You guys are always right. If we roll the dice and it gets worse you decree that it was left too long or the wrong replacement was made. If we roll the dice and it gets better then you were right alk along. The board don''t have that luxury of being able to be right all the time. Their decisions have consequences.[/quote]I have tried to treat you with respect, which you have ignored, so in future I won''t bother.  The idea that anyone who disagrees with your narrow opinion with what is happening at CR, is where the arrogance is here.  Nothing I posted was arrogant it was purely disbelief of your statement, if it stank to you, there''s something wrong with your sense of smell.  Also to try and make out that there are only two posters who are unhappy with the fact that AN is still here, try reading other posts and if you can clear your mind for a second of your narrow mindedness, you might just see, that there are rather a lot of disgruntled fans, followers, plastics, whatever you want to call them, it''s not just limited to those you mentioned, or are they just the ones you want to see?  Wake up and smell the coffee, convincing yourself you''re right all the time reveals an exaggerated sense of one''s own importance or abilities.

[Tumbleweed 106]

In my view it is quite simple.

I believe that:

1. we have a good squad of players.

2. we are not getting the most out of them.

3. the performance trajectory is down

4. there is little evidence of long lasting sustainable improvement.

5. Delia has formed another of her emotional attachments which blinds her to objectivity

Failure to get promoted will have a big effect on this club and I fear will cast us out of the PL for a while. Right now we have the opportunity to use the PL experience, the quality of players and the parachute money to lift us above the raft of similar clubs with good set ups in this league.

This emotional attachment could be very damaging and I find it hugely frustrating that yet again we seem to be prepared to fail as a result of semi negligent dogma.

[OldRobert 38]

[Y] Another arrogant poster? No.

[Mr Apples 1,317]

After seeing AN''s post-match interview he appears to be a broken man, who genuinely doesn''t know what to do next. I''ve been a long-time supporter of his but I think he is now in an irrecoverable position and it''s in the best interests of both parties for a change to happen.

Apples

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="OldRobert"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I do mean that. This idea that a decision is only a decision if you agree with it stinks of arrogance. I trust the board to get it right far more than i trust you and Jim Smith. You guys are always right. If we roll the dice and it gets worse you decree that it was left too long or the wrong replacement was made. If we roll the dice and it gets better then you were right alk along. The board don''t have that luxury of being able to be right all the time. Their decisions have consequences.[/quote]I have tried to treat you with respect, which you have ignored, so in future I won''t bother.  The idea that anyone who disagrees with your narrow opinion with what is happening at CR, is where the arrogance is here.  Nothing I posted was arrogant it was purely disbelief of your statement, if it stank to you, there''s something wrong with your sense of smell.  Also to try and make out that there are only two posters who are unhappy with the fact that AN is still here, try reading other posts and if you can clear your mind for a second of your narrow mindedness, you might just see, that there are rather a lot of disgruntled fans, followers, plastics, whatever you want to call them, it''s not just limited to those you mentioned, or are they just the ones you want to see?  Wake up and smell the coffee, convincing yourself you''re right all the time reveals an exaggerated sense of one''s own importance or abilities.[/quote]

Firstly you are under the impression I was calling you

arrogant and reading my post back I get that so I apologise. 

I’ll try again to explain my opinion. Norwich City FC is

massive. The big decisions the board make impact people employed at all levels

within the club. Also their families. (Not really the football manager, coaches

and players because their contracts are honoured whatever occurs.) It also can

impact on the CSF and the tens of thousands of disadvantaged, disabled and

talented people it supports across Norfolk. This is the responsibility the

board are charged with when they meet and discuss those big decisions like

whether to sack the football manager. Bearing all that in mind I don’t think my

view that “So far they have been very decisive and

certainly are not afraid of tough decisions...” was narrow minded. I think it reflected

just how tough making such decisions is under the weight of all that

responsibility.

 

And I also think that

you have neither tried to read it or understand that view. Because nowhere,

absolutely nowhere, have I criticised any view as to whether Alex Neil should

be sacked or not. So if nothing else maybe you’d do me the honour of reading

what I wrote rather than pretend it’s what it wasn’t. Making out there were only

two posters? No. Every poster has an opinion whether Neil should be sacked or

not. The reason I mentioned you and Jimbo was because you patted me on the head

so to speak and said “I find it very difficult to believe that you actually

believe that.” And Jimbo accused the board of negligence for not making

the decision he would make. Rather than convincing myself I’m right all the

time I am convinced that you read my post and then put your own words in and

insinuate I call other fans plastics which I don’t think I have ever done.

 

So in a nutshell, I

think that posters that believe the board’s decisive and tough decisions are

not that at all because they are different to the decisions they themselves

would make hold an arrogant point of view. If that still offends then I’m

afraid it’s what I believe.

[Guest]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="OldRobert"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I do mean that. This idea that a decision is only a decision if you agree with it stinks of arrogance. I trust the board to get it right far more than i trust you and Jim Smith. You guys are always right. If we roll the dice and it gets worse you decree that it was left too long or the wrong replacement was made. If we roll the dice and it gets better then you were right alk along. The board don''t have that luxury of being able to be right all the time. Their decisions have consequences.[/quote]I have tried to treat you with respect, which you have ignored, so in future I won''t bother.  The idea that anyone who disagrees with your narrow opinion with what is happening at CR, is where the arrogance is here.  Nothing I posted was arrogant it was purely disbelief of your statement, if it stank to you, there''s something wrong with your sense of smell.  Also to try and make out that there are only two posters who are unhappy with the fact that AN is still here, try reading other posts and if you can clear your mind for a second of your narrow mindedness, you might just see, that there are rather a lot of disgruntled fans, followers, plastics, whatever you want to call them, it''s not just limited to those you mentioned, or are they just the ones you want to see?  Wake up and smell the coffee, convincing yourself you''re right all the time reveals an exaggerated sense of one''s own importance or abilities.[/quote]

Firstly you are under the impression I was calling you

arrogant and reading my post back I get that so I apologise. 

I’ll try again to explain my opinion. Norwich City FC is

massive. The big decisions the board make impact people employed at all levels

within the club. Also their families. (Not really the football manager, coaches

and players because their contracts are honoured whatever occurs.) It also can

impact on the CSF and the tens of thousands of disadvantaged, disabled and

talented people it supports across Norfolk. This is the responsibility the

board are charged with when they meet and discuss those big decisions like

whether to sack the football manager. Bearing all that in mind I don’t think my

view that “So far they have been very decisive and

certainly are not afraid of tough decisions...” was narrow minded. I think it reflected

just how tough making such decisions is under the weight of all that

responsibility.

 

And I also think that

you have neither tried to read it or understand that view. Because nowhere,

absolutely nowhere, have I criticised any view as to whether Alex Neil should

be sacked or not. So if nothing else maybe you’d do me the honour of reading

what I wrote rather than pretend it’s what it wasn’t. Making out there were only

two posters? No. Every poster has an opinion whether Neil should be sacked or

not. The reason I mentioned you and Jimbo was because you patted me on the head

so to speak and said “I find it very difficult to believe that you actually

believe that.” And Jimbo accused the board of negligence for not making

the decision he would make. Rather than convincing myself I’m right all the

time I am convinced that you read my post and then put your own words in and

insinuate I call other fans plastics which I don’t think I have ever done.

 

So in a nutshell, I

think that posters that believe the board’s decisive and tough decisions are

not that at all because they are different to the decisions they themselves

would make hold an arrogant point of view. If that still offends then I’m

afraid it’s what I believe.

[/quote]

I''m not sure I agree that the decisions they have to make are that difficult. The team behind them have the tougher job of presenting a balanced projection.

I am not really bold enough to believe I know whether Moxey has the moxey but his team under him must scavenge around the club for tit bits and rumours and pass it on.

He might well have a mate looking for a job for all I know but must present his evaluation of the AN position just for the future of the club.

And the board really only have to rubber stamp his findings. Obviously they may ask questions but must trust his judgement.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]In my view it is quite simple. I believe that: 1. we have a good squad of players. 2. we are not getting the most out of them. 3. the performance trajectory is down 4. there is little evidence of long lasting sustainable improvement. 5. Delia has formed another of her emotional attachments which blinds her to objectivity Failure to get promoted will have a big effect on this club and I fear will cast us out of the PL for a while. Right now we have the opportunity to use the PL experience, the quality of players and the parachute money to lift us above the raft of similar clubs with good set ups in this league. This emotional attachment could be very damaging and I find it hugely frustrating that yet again we seem to be prepared to fail as a result of semi negligent dogma.[/quote]

 

I agree with this 100%.  On Saturday we could easily have got an equalizer in the second half.  But really with our squad we should have outclassed Barnsley for 90 minutes and for them to get anything from the game should have needed masses of luck. 

 

Maybe NN is right and the owners are making a tough decision to keep AN.  But with Hughton they fell between two stools by keeping him but not letting him spend in the January window, then sacked him when it was too late to make any difference and appointed a replacement with no experience, which was ridiculous.  So I''m concerned they are really just dithering while they cross their fingers and hope for the best.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="keelansgrandad"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="OldRobert"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I do mean that. This idea that a decision is only a decision if you agree with it stinks of arrogance. I trust the board to get it right far more than i trust you and Jim Smith. You guys are always right. If we roll the dice and it gets worse you decree that it was left too long or the wrong replacement was made. If we roll the dice and it gets better then you were right alk along. The board don''t have that luxury of being able to be right all the time. Their decisions have consequences.[/quote]I have tried to treat you with respect, which you have ignored, so in future I won''t bother.  The idea that anyone who disagrees with your narrow opinion with what is happening at CR, is where the arrogance is here.  Nothing I posted was arrogant it was purely disbelief of your statement, if it stank to you, there''s something wrong with your sense of smell.  Also to try and make out that there are only two posters who are unhappy with the fact that AN is still here, try reading other posts and if you can clear your mind for a second of your narrow mindedness, you might just see, that there are rather a lot of disgruntled fans, followers, plastics, whatever you want to call them, it''s not just limited to those you mentioned, or are they just the ones you want to see?  Wake up and smell the coffee, convincing yourself you''re right all the time reveals an exaggerated sense of one''s own importance or abilities.[/quote]

Firstly you are under the impression I was calling you

arrogant and reading my post back I get that so I apologise. 

I’ll try again to explain my opinion. Norwich City FC is

massive. The big decisions the board make impact people employed at all levels

within the club. Also their families. (Not really the football manager, coaches

and players because their contracts are honoured whatever occurs.) It also can

impact on the CSF and the tens of thousands of disadvantaged, disabled and

talented people it supports across Norfolk. This is the responsibility the

board are charged with when they meet and discuss those big decisions like

whether to sack the football manager. Bearing all that in mind I don’t think my

view that “So far they have been very decisive and

certainly are not afraid of tough decisions...” was narrow minded. I think it reflected

just how tough making such decisions is under the weight of all that

responsibility.

 

And I also think that

you have neither tried to read it or understand that view. Because nowhere,

absolutely nowhere, have I criticised any view as to whether Alex Neil should

be sacked or not. So if nothing else maybe you’d do me the honour of reading

what I wrote rather than pretend it’s what it wasn’t. Making out there were only

two posters? No. Every poster has an opinion whether Neil should be sacked or

not. The reason I mentioned you and Jimbo was because you patted me on the head

so to speak and said “I find it very difficult to believe that you actually

believe that.” And Jimbo accused the board of negligence for not making

the decision he would make. Rather than convincing myself I’m right all the

time I am convinced that you read my post and then put your own words in and

insinuate I call other fans plastics which I don’t think I have ever done.

 

So in a nutshell, I

think that posters that believe the board’s decisive and tough decisions are

not that at all because they are different to the decisions they themselves

would make hold an arrogant point of view. If that still offends then I’m

afraid it’s what I believe.

[/quote]

I''m not sure I agree that the decisions they have to make are that difficult. The team behind them have the tougher job of presenting a balanced projection.

I am not really bold enough to believe I know whether Moxey has the moxey but his team under him must scavenge around the club for tit bits and rumours and pass it on.

He might well have a mate looking for a job for all I know but must present his evaluation of the AN position just for the future of the club.

And the board really only have to rubber stamp his findings. Obviously they may ask questions but must trust his judgement.[/quote]

I think you''re right Pops. I still think they''re very tough decisions. But I don''t have a problem with people thinking they''re easy decisions. I''d just say to them that the decision to sack the manager is as easy as the one to keep him. Both are equal decisions whether easy or tough.

[Guest]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="keelansgrandad"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="OldRobert"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I do mean that. This idea that a decision is only a decision if you agree with it stinks of arrogance. I trust the board to get it right far more than i trust you and Jim Smith. You guys are always right. If we roll the dice and it gets worse you decree that it was left too long or the wrong replacement was made. If we roll the dice and it gets better then you were right alk along. The board don''t have that luxury of being able to be right all the time. Their decisions have consequences.[/quote]I have tried to treat you with respect, which you have ignored, so in future I won''t bother.  The idea that anyone who disagrees with your narrow opinion with what is happening at CR, is where the arrogance is here.  Nothing I posted was arrogant it was purely disbelief of your statement, if it stank to you, there''s something wrong with your sense of smell.  Also to try and make out that there are only two posters who are unhappy with the fact that AN is still here, try reading other posts and if you can clear your mind for a second of your narrow mindedness, you might just see, that there are rather a lot of disgruntled fans, followers, plastics, whatever you want to call them, it''s not just limited to those you mentioned, or are they just the ones you want to see?  Wake up and smell the coffee, convincing yourself you''re right all the time reveals an exaggerated sense of one''s own importance or abilities.[/quote]

Firstly you are under the impression I was calling you

arrogant and reading my post back I get that so I apologise. 

I’ll try again to explain my opinion. Norwich City FC is

massive. The big decisions the board make impact people employed at all levels

within the club. Also their families. (Not really the football manager, coaches

and players because their contracts are honoured whatever occurs.) It also can

impact on the CSF and the tens of thousands of disadvantaged, disabled and

talented people it supports across Norfolk. This is the responsibility the

board are charged with when they meet and discuss those big decisions like

whether to sack the football manager. Bearing all that in mind I don’t think my

view that “So far they have been very decisive and

certainly are not afraid of tough decisions...” was narrow minded. I think it reflected

just how tough making such decisions is under the weight of all that

responsibility.

 

And I also think that

you have neither tried to read it or understand that view. Because nowhere,

absolutely nowhere, have I criticised any view as to whether Alex Neil should

be sacked or not. So if nothing else maybe you’d do me the honour of reading

what I wrote rather than pretend it’s what it wasn’t. Making out there were only

two posters? No. Every poster has an opinion whether Neil should be sacked or

not. The reason I mentioned you and Jimbo was because you patted me on the head

so to speak and said “I find it very difficult to believe that you actually

believe that.” And Jimbo accused the board of negligence for not making

the decision he would make. Rather than convincing myself I’m right all the

time I am convinced that you read my post and then put your own words in and

insinuate I call other fans plastics which I don’t think I have ever done.

 

So in a nutshell, I

think that posters that believe the board’s decisive and tough decisions are

not that at all because they are different to the decisions they themselves

would make hold an arrogant point of view. If that still offends then I’m

afraid it’s what I believe.

[/quote]

I''m not sure I agree that the decisions they have to make are that difficult. The team behind them have the tougher job of presenting a balanced projection.

I am not really bold enough to believe I know whether Moxey has the moxey but his team under him must scavenge around the club for tit bits and rumours and pass it on.

He might well have a mate looking for a job for all I know but must present his evaluation of the AN position just for the future of the club.

And the board really only have to rubber stamp his findings. Obviously they may ask questions but must trust his judgement.[/quote]

I think you''re right Pops. I still think they''re very tough decisions. But I don''t have a problem with people thinking they''re easy decisions. I''d just say to them that the decision to sack the manager is as easy as the one to keep him. Both are equal decisions whether easy or tough.

[/quote]

I don''t think it is fair to always blame the board. Of course they must share some responsibility, but if it isn''t their nature to be ruthless then that is it.

Of course some would point at our record of managerial appointments and say they get it wrong more often than right. But that is once again based on the "intelligence" they receive.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Still a different point to the one I made.

However if we run with your in isolation the board get it wrong more often than not. Then how does that compare to other clubs which would be a fairer assessment.

[Guest]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Still a different point to the one I made.

However if we run with your in isolation the board get it wrong more often than not. Then how does that compare to other clubs which would be a fairer assessment.[/quote]

I''m not sure comparisons would be fair. I do think that Norwich is almost a one off.

No competition leading to a loyal and returning fan base is the main argument for me that makes the club kind of unique.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Comparisons about managerial appointments would be fair. Fairer than just saying in isolation our club is good/bad.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

But whether it''s easy or difficult is a side issue.  No one says owning a football clubs is easy.  The OP has given a thoughtful explanation of why he thinks, with clear regret, that it is time to get rid of AN, and I agree with what he says. 

 

On the other side of the argument, the main reason I can see for keeping AN is the risk of the unknown.  And the fact that he did well at the start.  But as has been pointed out, he looks like a shell of that man now, and he''s clearly floundering.  Would AN, back in early 2015, have made the decision to go with 3 lightweight attacking options, with Murphy/Brady down one flank, both open invitations to a team that was very happy to play a very physical style and target that flank ?  It was almost suicidal. 

 

Looking back, yes over the years City have brought in a lot of managers who weren''t much cop.  But most of those were when we had a pretty mediocre second-tier squad, making it hard to attract a quality manager.  Now we have a squad that should be capable of challenging for the top two positions and that''s an attractive proposition for plenty of managers (albeit we''ve missed out on a few obvious candidates who''ve now gone elsewhere).  But we should be able to bring in a manager who can make sensible team selections and get the squad reasonably well organised and decently motivated.  Which IMO is all we need to push back up this league.  It would be a real struggle to get back up to the auto places now, but at the very least we should be able to get in the top 6 with the chance of claiming second spot if others slip up.

[ricardo 7,341]

[quote user="Its Character Forming"]  It would be a real struggle to get back up to the auto places now, but at the very least we should be able to get in the top 6 with the chance of claiming second spot if others slip up.[/quote]Christ! you take some convincing ICF.Auto disappeared weeks ago when it became obvious that we were going to concede 60 plus goals this season. I gave up all hope of auto after a dozen games. Brighton have conceded 11 goals we have nearly three times as many in our net. Time to stop kidding ourselves that the future is going to be very different to the past.

[Ray 111]

The future isn''t what it used to be Ricardo.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Its Character Forming"]

  It would be a real struggle to get back up to the auto places now, but at the very least we should be able to get in the top 6 with the chance of claiming second spot if others slip up.[/quote]

Christ! you take some convincing ICF.

Auto disappeared weeks ago when it became obvious that we were going to concede 60 plus goals this season. I gave up all hope of auto after a dozen games. Brighton have conceded 11 goals we have nearly three times as many in our net. Time to stop kidding ourselves that the future is going to be very different to the past.
[/quote]

Yes I do Ricardo, because I think with a different manager we could have a very solid defence.  If we keep our current manager I think we''ll be struggling to make 6th place.

 

And, as I said, even if we do improve, we''d still be relying on others to slip up, as well as making up loads of ground ourselves.

 

If you look back at overtaking Leeds back in L1, or the gap AN himself made up to get us back into competition for the automatic places, it''s not impossible yet.  Saturday was another completely winnable game, and every one of those we lose makes the task even harder.

[Tumbleweed 106]

I think there is a bit of a distinction also between making a decision not to change, and not making a decision to sack. I suspect that despite the supportive words from the owners it is more of the latter since they have in the past seemed to lurch between acting decisively and not acting until too late which suggest to me a tactical rather than a strategic approach to these matters.