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GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

trailing for 55 mins, 2 strikers on the pitch for zero mins....

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absolutely ,incredibly disgusting management of the situation and use of substitutions.

To misread the game to such an extent where we can''t even field 2 strikers when we''re losing with 5-10 mins left is unforgivable.

....and to cap it, he''s just said to Chris Goreham that he''d make the same subs again.

we deserve better than this, once again he fails to adapt to the game and change its path, too many times now, 9 defeats and we''re not even half way.

Tonight we saw from the opposition a team that is being coached proporly with a gameplan against one making it up as it goes along, inflexible and a manager who''s completely lost it.

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My son and I said what was needed at 45 and at 60 minutes. My son said "but of course Neil won''t see it like that. He never does" .... Describes his management and his ideas on systems. But we are merely the paying fans and not paid handsomely as a manager.

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But If he played 2 strikers he would not be able to play 4231. We can''t stray away from that. It''s his "tried & tested formula".

God I miss the days of Paul Lambert & Culverhouse. Changing the lineup, formation to play to against the oppositions weakness. 1 week we had Morison up top on his own, next week we had Holt & Morison together etc.

The Huddersfield manager has the right formula, they win on a Tuesday night, he makes 5 changes for Friday and win again. Whereas we pick an unchanged side.

Slow, Lethargic, No tempo. That''s us.

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Why play another striker when we always have Naismith available to run around like a headless chicken

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Let me take a devil''s advocate stance here.If you were to take the game in isolation, we were beaten by one goal, by a better team. Obviously we know most peoples issue is the general results, not just this one.For most of the game, we were trailing by that one goal.4-4-2 isn''t necessarily more positive than any other formation, and especially not against a strong opposition midfield.I''m not making excuses, I don''t like it any more than anyone else, but thinking whatever the question is, two strikers is the answer, really is a bit daft.

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Morty,

I think it''s more, FFS let''s try something else, cos this ain''t working, than, it must be 2 strikers.

Well it is for me anyway, but that said I think given the right leadership and motivation there''s no reason why the current system shouldn''t work but that''s another thread!

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[quote user="Ray"]Morty,

I think it''s more, FFS let''s try something else, cos this ain''t working, than, it must be 2 strikers
.

Well it is for me anyway, but that said I think given the right leadership and motivation there''s no reason why the current system shouldn''t work but that''s another thread![/quote]No Ray, it really isn''t.

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Well....something that the best managers in the current game do. Wenger did it yesterday. At times he plays with 3 upfront.

There are so many examples of having trust in your players, capable of using so many systems ''within'' and amidst each game. It''s also about the team understanding what they are capable of. It''s about setting up and playing to your own strengths (as Wagner has just alluded to in his younger team) and your mentality.

It''s not just about 442 but being able to react, respond to influence momentum (and in Lamberts case so often, he MADE changes that led momentum.... Quit,e a few occasions he would bring on attacking subs when we were up in games). THIS in-game management is where the manager earns his money after they have crossed the white line ( which Neil alludes to). Alex has never got this right in my opinion ...maybe he continues to learn. I''m sure he is. But he seems to have lost his trust in the players or they are so over-coached ( does anyone here believe this? I do) that they cannot play the natural game and use their own intuition and know how? The trouble with being so controlling and uni-dimensional is plain for supporters to see. He needs to get some kind of guidance and have more humility and perhaps he can become a great manager. Whilst he sticks his head in the sand they way he is, we will continue to go backwards.

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[quote user="morty"]Let me take a devil''s advocate stance here.If you were to take the game in isolation, we were beaten by one goal, by a better team. Obviously we know most peoples issue is the general results, not just this one.For most of the game, we were trailing by that one goal.4-4-2 isn''t necessarily more positive than any other formation, and especially not against a strong opposition midfield.I''m not making excuses, I don''t like it any more than anyone else, but thinking whatever the question is, two strikers is the answer, really is a bit daft. [/quote]
I get your point, but even taking this game in isolation - no way should Huddersfield out perform us by that extreme. Particularly in the middle of the park, one or two good players but it''s the coaching and defined style that makes such a significant contrast between the two teams.
But 4-4-2 would have made more sense in this game, because as you say, somehow Huddersfield midfield looked 2x quicker, 2x sharper and 2x stronger than our midfield. Thus, 2 up front, particularly Jerome and Oliveira - would have given us an opportunity to occasionally bypass the midfield - which we tried to do anyway with Bassong up top for the last 10 minutes.

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[quote user="sonyc"]Well....something that the best managers in the current game do. Wenger did it yesterday. At times he plays with 3 upfront.

There are so many examples of having trust in your players, capable of using so many systems ''within'' and amidst each game. It''s also about the team understanding what they are capable of. It''s about setting up and playing to your own strengths (as Wagner has just alluded to in his younger team) and your mentality.

It''s not just about 442 but being able to react, respond to influence momentum (and in Lamberts case so often, he MADE changes that led momentum.... Quit,e a few occasions he would bring on attacking subs when we were up in games). THIS in-game management is where the manager earns his money after they have crossed the white line ( which Neil alludes to). Alex has never got this right in my opinion ...maybe he continues to learn. I''m sure he is. But he seems to have lost his trust in the players or they are so over-coached ( does anyone here believe this? I do) that they cannot play the natural game and use their own intuition and know how? The trouble with being so controlling and uni-dimensional is plain for supporters to see. He needs to get some kind of guidance and have more humility and perhaps he can become a great manager. Whilst he sticks his head in the sand they way he is, we will continue to go backwards.[/quote]Sorry but comparing the calibre of players we have to Arsenal''s is like comparing cats and dogs.A manager plays the formation he thinks best suits the players he has at his disposal. Now its obvious we have issues with the balance of the squad, we have a group of ageing players, all recently relegated, and we have a lot of young blood, most of which hasn''t worked out yet, for reasons unknown to most of us. Maybe he can''t play a plan B, because there literally isn''t one, maybe his in game management is limited because he has limited cards to play?I''m not touting as some kind of tactical genius, but the reasons above are why I don''t lay 100% of the blame at his feet.

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="morty"]Let me take a devil''s advocate stance here.If you were to take the game in isolation, we were beaten by one goal, by a better team. Obviously we know most peoples issue is the general results, not just this one.For most of the game, we were trailing by that one goal.4-4-2 isn''t necessarily more positive than any other formation, and especially not against a strong opposition midfield.I''m not making excuses, I don''t like it any more than anyone else, but thinking whatever the question is, two strikers is the answer, really is a bit daft. [/quote]
I get your point, but even taking this game in isolation - no way should Huddersfield out perform us by that extreme. Particularly in the middle of the park, one or two good players but it''s the coaching and defined style that makes such a significant contrast between the two teams.
But 4-4-2 would have made more sense in this game, because as you say, somehow Huddersfield midfield looked 2x quicker, 2x sharper and 2x stronger than our midfield. Thus, 2 up front, particularly Jerome and Oliveira - would have given us an opportunity to occasionally bypass the midfield - which we tried to do anyway with Bassong up top for the last 10 minutes.
[/quote]Another issue (linked with the reply I made to sonyc above) is that with his limited viable options, theres no way we should have been playing some of those players in a second game in 4 days, its obvious the energy just wasn''t there in midfield, which is where we lost the game.

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The contrasting coaching styles and trust in your players is quite possibly a good point Hogesar. As a player, who would you rather play for? Neil or Wagner. Listen to the former''s way of speaking. No wonder he was an apprentice of sorts with Klopp.

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For me it''s not about the argument of two up front or not, it''s taking off a striker for a striker and then proceeding to play Bassong as striker! I can''t understand that logic, far better to keep two strikers on the pitch surely and it''s yet another very poor decision by AN.

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[quote user="Ginja"]For me it''s not about the argument of two up front or not, it''s taking off a striker for a striker and then proceeding to play Bassong as striker! I can''t understand that logic, far better to keep two strikers on the pitch surely and it''s yet another very poor decision by AN.
[/quote]So if he''d whacked another striker on, and taken a defender off, and we lost 3 or 4-1, we''d have been praising him for it?

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Ginja"]For me it''s not about the argument of two up front or not, it''s taking off a striker for a striker and then proceeding to play Bassong as striker! I can''t understand that logic, far better to keep two strikers on the pitch surely and it''s yet another very poor decision by AN.
[/quote]So if he''d whacked another striker on, and taken a defender off, and we lost 3 or 4-1, we''d have been praising him for it?[/quote]
No of course not, he''d have been vilified by most however he''s paid to make brave decisions, shirked the opportunity to do so, and ended up losing anyway.

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I''m not saying I blame him 100% Morty. The Arsenal example was purely the most recent example on TV yesterday. And I don''t think that you cannot learn from the best managers. How else does a person learn? You get better playing squash by players against better players, the same with golf, the same in business ( you get seconded to another company).

And bringing on a second striker when you need to score goals is surely not such a weird thing to do, even in the lower leagues? As others have mentioned, AN likes his one upfront. He is wedded to it. He is wedded to screaming at his players. There is something he can learn from others. We can learn ourselves too throughout life (but don''t get me into philosophy !)

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[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Ginja"]For me it''s not about the argument of two up front or not, it''s taking off a striker for a striker and then proceeding to play Bassong as striker! I can''t understand that logic, far better to keep two strikers on the pitch surely and it''s yet another very poor decision by AN.
[/quote]So if he''d whacked another striker on, and taken a defender off, and we lost 3 or 4-1, we''d have been praising him for it?[/quote]
No of course not, he''d have been vilified by most however he''s paid to make brave decisions, shirked the opportunity to do so, and ended up losing anyway.
[/quote]Agree with this, and its what turned me after the Brentford game, his admission that he was afraid of failure. Which is fine, he''s human, this is his livelihood, and if sacked from Norwich I can''t see him getting a better job than this.

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[quote user="sonyc"]I''m not saying I blame him 100% Morty. The Arsenal example was purely the most recent example on TV yesterday. And I don''t think that you cannot learn from the best managers. How else does a person learn? You get better playing squash by players against better players, the same with golf, the same in business ( you get seconded to another company).

And bringing on a second striker when you need to score goals is surely not such a weird thing to do, even in the lower leagues? As others have mentioned, AN likes his one upfront. He is wedded to it. He is wedded to screaming at his players. There is something he can learn from others. We can learn ourselves too throughout life (but don''t get me into philosophy !)[/quote]I didn''t say it is either a weird, or wrong thing to do.But the concept that 4-4-2 is more positive than other formations, is a very outdated one. Didn''t we have Naismith on the pitch, who has played as a second striker?And I still think taking one out of our already overrun midfield would have been absolute suicide, especially as we were only losing by one goal, and still making chances.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Ray"]Morty,

I think it''s more, FFS let''s try something else, cos this ain''t working, than, it must be 2 strikers
.

Well it is for me anyway, but that said I think given the right leadership and motivation there''s no reason why the current system shouldn''t work but that''s another thread![/quote]No Ray, it really isn''t.[/quote]

It may not be for you Morty, but for me, Yes Morty, it really is!!

My feelings are that his motivational and man management abilities deserve a thread all to themselves (unless there''s been one already and I missed it) rather than be, scuse the pun, threaded throughout others, but I ain''t gonna start it.

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Well the game itself and his decisions are evidence enough. Bassong did well to get on two of the opportunities ( and you need to have some skill and a footballing brain to do that) but just how many times has he converted? Maybe Everton twice? He just isn''t someone I feel confident about scoring. He is a defender. Would far have preferred Lafferty or Oliveira. Sorry, we all have different opinions. Neil still thinks he was right and he would do it all again. So there it is. He knows it was a decision that didn''t pay off but would do it again. Our season has been full of this type of management thinking. It''s a big reason for our decline. It was there at the end of the Prem season. We should have changed things and we didn''t and now we will see the consequences. It''s a dreadful shame.

As a matter of interest how many points do you think we will achieve by the end of the season? You like a small bet....I''m going for a window of between 57 and 60 points. And that stands whether we change the manager or not. We have ''lost'' a season of great opportunity in my opinion. When we held on to him I did predict mid-table and stagnation. That opinion was based on intuition in the main I have to confess but also that was influenced by Neil''s game management and decisions. Do you think we will get above 60 points?

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[quote user="sonyc"]Well the game itself and his decisions are evidence enough. Bassong did well to get on two of the opportunities ( and you need to have some skill and a footballing brain to do that) but just how many times has he converted? Maybe Everton twice? He just isn''t someone I feel confident about scoring. He is a defender. Would far have preferred Lafferty or Oliveira. Sorry, we all have different opinions. Neil still thinks he was right and he would do it all again. So there it is. He knows it was a decision that didn''t pay off but would do it again. Our season has been full of this type of management thinking. It''s a big reason for our decline. It was there at the end of the Prem season. We should have changed things and we didn''t and now we will see the consequences. It''s a dreadful shame.

As a matter of interest how many points do you think we will achieve by the end of the season? You like a small bet....I''m going for a window of between 57 and 60 points. And that stands whether we change the manager or not. We have ''lost'' a season of great opportunity in my opinion. When we held on to him I did predict mid-table and stagnation. That opinion was based on intuition in the main I have to confess but also that was influenced by Neil''s game management and decisions. Do you think we will get above 60 points?[/quote]We have the luxury of discussing it after the fact. During the game, in the second half, with the chances we were making, I genuinely thought we were going to score.I can only assume Oliviera was knackered, someone spotted he was casting glances over to the bench, before the substitution was made. And Laugherty? No.I haven''t even given any thought to how many points we will end up with, if something changes, basically right now, and we can start getting results, then I think that play offs are still achievable. But it really has to change very, very soon.

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yes, true, but wish we had the luxury of talking about more positive things. For example what position would you prefer now....? A terrible start (like Villa) and then improving dramatically giving supporters hope that the team are heading in the right direction? Or top of the table, full of macho confidence and then slipping to 10th in less than 2 months? It''s why we all need perspective.

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[quote user="sonyc"]yes, true, but wish we had the luxury of talking about more positive things. For example what position would you prefer now....? A terrible start (like Villa) and then improving dramatically giving supporters hope that the team are heading in the right direction? Or top of the table, full of macho confidence and then slipping to 10th in less than 2 months? It''s why we all need perspective.[/quote]I do wonder if Villa have just benefited from a dead cat bounce with the change in manager, and they are as fragile as we are.

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