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Poor formation

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First half we play the diamond which we know doesn''t work. Millwall control the game, have plenty of shots and lead 1-0 at half time. Second half we play 4-4-2 and we control it completely with Millwall only having 1 shot of note. Now my question is why? Why didn''t we start with 4-4-2, if it wasn''t working then change it. Don''t start with a formation we know doesn''t work, especially when the line up has been changed dramatically. Worthington said on the radio it was to accomodate the new players but I don''t understand why he thought it would work. From an early age and you play 11 a-side football, you usually play 4-4-2. It''s the way most English sides play except for the Prem so why wouldn''t the players brought into the side today be comfortable in it against Millwall. I think on the evidence of the second half shows that this should be the last time we see the diamond. No one can blame injuries because we controlled the second half. Within the first 10 minutes people could see it wasn''t working so change it. We didn''t make a substitution at half time so it would have worked. Sorry but its another poor bit of tactical work from our manager. What makes it worse is that it was a mistake that we''ve seen hasn''t worked before, has he learned from it. Doubt it.

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I completely agree. I hope that we''ve seen the last of the diamond, at least until we have a stronger midfield.

We just had no width, and with the forward point just that, - a forward, and opposite point playing as a defender, our midfield was a narrow two-man affair.

I found it a strange formation, given that we were lacking Marney, Safri and Hughes. Jarrett has still to convince us that he is first team material, and Charlton is a defender. We were light-weight! If Millwall had had more skill, we could have lost the game before half-time!

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It was not so much the formation but the choice and positioning of personnel.

It is abundantly clear that hux and ashton does NOT work as a strike pair.  Hux likes to move across the width of the pitch and run his own game.  Ashton is most impressive when working with a close linking partner.   So worthy decides to start with hux and ashton as the strike pair - the wrong decision IMO - Ashton & WLY or Ashton & Hendo were the options and as we saw in the second half caused far more problems.

Then we come to midfield.  Today we saw the folly of Worthy having only bought 3 midfield players in the summer and starting the season with only 4 midfield players in the squad.  3 were injured and so could not play - so we have a team with 3 left backs and a lacking confidence midfielder - you reap what you sow and it was painful to see the team sheet when announced pre-game.

With only 1 recognised midfielder you then think you have to build a formation around that player - JJ.  He is and always has been a central midfielder.  But what we end up with is a midfield where the only midfielder is played out of position, as are Charlie and Brennan.  

In the first half all three were abysmal - none seemed to know where or what they were supposed to be doing and simply could no win the ball or get it to the front three.  Not a surprise from such a mis-shapen midfield by players out of position.

To be fair when the ball did get to the front three they did ok - we simply did not get the ball to them well enough.

At least worthy did revert to 4-4-2 for the second half, and things improved. WLY partnering Deano was right as I said earlier but moving Jarrett into the centre showed what was missing, what he can do and what amistake it was to sit him wide in the first half.  However, as we saw against Leeds Hux is a wasted player on the right wing.  He played well but why oh why must we continually restrict him to his least effective spot and hand our opponents some help????  Once we went 4-4-2 he had to go left - which for me meant losing either charlie or brennan for Hendo to get the shape right.

Worthy MUST MUST MUST learn that we perform best by playing a formation the players know with players in their natural position.

Today that would have been with a starting midfield of hux, brennan or charlie, Brennan and Hendo.  With those 4 we could have successfully played a diamond or 4-4-2 and playes would have been in their most influential places.  Hendo on the right and HUx either on the left or just behind the front too depending on the formation chosen.

For me the crime today remains an old one of worthys - playing people out of position based upon seniority - he has to learn to play people in the best positions.  Chosing the diamond was not a mistake in itself - doing so with those personnel in those positions was never going to work. 

Worthy has to work harder at his tactics;  he has to strengthen the midfield as we again saw today understaffed in numbers and quality it is - these are the two huge factors that continue  to threaten any hoped for promotion charge.

Any team playing with 6 defenders in the starting line up is asking for trouble - and we got it today.

 

OTBC

  

      

 

 

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Come on Dicky and Mad Dan - let''s be ''aving you! I can''t wait to see what you''ve got to say about that dismal performance. 

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Please don''t misunderstand me; it is not Worthington''s fault that he had to re-jig the midfield. However, to play players out of position AND in an unfamiliar formation is not just naive, it is incompetent.

A centre half/full back, full back and a striker/winger in midfield, a central midfielder out wide(ish) and a left-winger up front. I think that was about it.

The bloke lacks any insight or common-sense. He papers over the cracks with a couple of wins against relegation candidates and everyone falls into line.

Worthington must go. I don''t buy all this business about him having done a decent job in the past. When exactly? When we won the league he was backed to the hilt and bought proven players in. As for the line about there not being anyone else, just take a look around. Boothroyd and Newell for starters, and that''s without even thinking about it.

If he continues in this job we will finish mid-table with a squad that should walk this league. In the words of Gordan Ramsey, we need someone to grow balls and be a boss. Get rid!

I await abuse.

 

 

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Whilst we may have injuries all eleven players starting todays game were professional footballers and should have the ability to passs the ball to their colleagues irrespective of formations. Unfortunately today too many balls were hoofed up front and I still feel Ashton is at his best receiving a ball on the ground.

We should end up the season with the pitch in good condition the balls not on it much.

As for Huckerbys penalty miss is this where Worthington came in with players in the comfort zone because Millwall certainly seemed more up for it than Norwich.

 

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More evidence that Mr Worthington lacks the technical skills and tactical ability to manage our club; this will not change whilst he is in charge and the results will continue to reflect his deficiencies. Best to change him now and plan for next season?!!

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For me the really scary thing is that anyone at the match saw that the formation was not working within 10 minuted and yet we persisted with it for 45 mins. Once it was changed we were a differrent team.

What is it about Worthington that he continues to make these abysmal slecetions and then persists with them??

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[quote]There is not a manager in this world who has not made mistakes now and again get over it had hucks put the pen away we would all be smiling now.[/quote]

Sorry, but the ''get behind the team'' fan-boys really are beginning to annoy the hell out of me now.  I have watched every home game this season, and the facts of what I have seen do not lie.  Worthington and his team are making far to many elementary errors that even a casual can spot.  Yesterday we had no midfiield, so the obvious thing is to not try to compete in that area, but go for a wide 442 and play out wide where we can put the ball in for Ashton to get onto. The folly of playing an ageing left-back in a ''ledley'' role was ludicrous and obviously doomed to failure. 

We are not playing to our strengths.  Yes we have injuries, but so does eveyone else, and I can only point out that Worthington commented on the England game and how Sven should keep it simple.  So why can he not practise what he is preaching?  In my opinion time is up.  We have 16 points from 13 games.  That is appalling, and nobody can put their hand on their heart and say otherwise. 

Would you run your own business by telling your manager that you are allowed to fail (hey we are in the Premiership but expecting to go down....)?  If the business was falling on its backside and showed no signs of improving, what would you do?  You would change the management, no question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote]There is not a manager in this world who has not made mistakes now and again get over it had hucks put the pen away we would all be smiling now.[/quote]

The thing is, Worthington makes mistakes week after week, and never shows any signs of learning from it. How often have we seen the diamond formation not work, yet on the second half showing we know we didn''t need to play it. I used to think that he was a young manager learning the game. All he''s learned is that he can''t make negative comments about fans. Not a lot else though

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[quote]Whilst we may have injuries all eleven players starting todays game were professional footballers and should have the ability to passs the ball to their colleagues irrespective of formations. Unfortun...[/quote]

Ridgeman, thank you mate, i thought i was alone thinking pro footballers should at least be able to pass to each other regardless of tactics or orders issued before the game - it has long been (to be honest as long as worthy has been here) my own opinion of him that he doesn''t instill good footballing ethics into our team.  He says a lot about passing football but when it gets down to it it rarely ever happens in a game.  You might be right about the pitch too!

I didn''t personally witness yesterday''s performance due to other commitments, but it sounds like most of our other home games this season, i can''t feel i can comment on what happened yesterday, but overall on the games i have seen the pattern seems the same

Sure it was nice to win against the scum, hull and brighton, (but coudl we take any of those games as a true test of how good, or otherwise we are?). 

Shouldn''t we be beating millwall, reading etc at home if we have any chance of getting promoted?  When are we going to start playing each player in his natural and best position?  When are we going to accept that these players should, as you say ridgeman, be able to play basic football.  They all seem bloody clueless at the moment and that is down to the coaching and management.

If Worthy and co would just get back to basic skill levels and instill some confidence into the players, which can all be done at Colney, we might just start going in the right direction. If they can''t cope with anything other than 4-4-2, why not?  If yesterday''s available players couldn''t understand what they were doing, why wasn''t this all discussed and addressed in training.  Millwall, by all accounts are not world beaters, and sadly nor are we, but with the personnel at this club we should be doing a hell of a lot better.  How long do we go on like this?  IMHO, we have gone too far down this road and we need to ask some serious questions of the management and what is needed to turn things around. 

 

 

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[quote]For me the really scary thing is that anyone at the match saw that the formation was not working within 10 minuted and yet we persisted with it for 45 mins. Once it was changed we were a differrent te...[/quote]

Because he is the manager with the top UEFA coaching qualification; and the more we dare to criticise his tactics etc, the more he digs his heels in.   He considers the opinions of lifelong supporters to be irrelevant.  Sadly the only thing that he has managed to get right is to con the board into giving him an extended improved contract.

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[quote]Because he is the manager with the top UEFA coaching qualification; and the more we dare to criticise his tactics etc, the more he digs his heels in. He considers the opinions of lifelong supporters...[/quote]

To be honest I''m glad he considers the opinions of lifelong supporters to be irrelevant. It wouldn''t inspire confidence to think that when picking a team he thought "Hmm, wonder whether thats what DDiM would have done" (no offense to DD btw, you could replace that name with anyones.)

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[quote]Please don''t misunderstand me; it is not Worthington''s fault that he had to re-jig the midfield. However, to play players out of position AND in an unfamiliar formation is not just naive, it is incomp...[/quote]

You will not get any abuse from me as I agree entirely.  This manager has the ability to take a group of talented and skilful players and remove those qualities so that they are never seen again.

At this stage last season Ashton was well into double figures because he had Dario Gradi as a manager.  Gradi knows that Dean plays better when he gets the ball to feet or to run onto.  Good old Worthy moves him to the left and gets the other players to hoof (sorry long pass) the ball to him. 

I WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO NAME ANY PLAYER THAT HAS IMPROVED UNDER WORTHY AS HIS MANAGER, BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL THAT HAVE HAD THEIR NATURAL GAME/ TALENT STIFLED.

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[quote]Come on Dicky and Mad Dan - let''s be ''aving you! I can''t wait to see what you''ve got to say about that dismal performance.[/quote]

They''re not posting, they''re not posting, they''re not posting any more, they''re not posting any more.

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Dismal performance? Yes in the first half but much better in the second. I thought we did enough to win and we would have but for the saved penalty, disallowed goal and goalline clearance. Many point out that the better secondhalf performance was due to a change in formation. I think this is true in part but overlooks the fact that Millwall sat on their lead and then were down to ten men. Towards the end, Green was dribbling the ball virtually to the half way line.

Unlike others. I think the diamond could work for us sometimes, particularly against poor teams and when Safri is available but agree it did not work yesterday. I was surprised when I saw the line-up yesterday but did not know about Hughes'' injury and had hoped Marney would be fit.

I think Huckerby does create problems for us in where to play him. He is clearly our best individual player but how to fit him into the team. Wide left is probably best on balance but I understand why he was not played there given that we had three left-sided players on the pitch!!

I am pleased there are so many Henderson fans now. I agree that it was strange that he did not start on the right. We missed Safri big time. I note that Rossi Jarvis was on the bench. Would he have been an option to start in central midfield alongside Jarrett?

I see that the Worthy in/Worthy out debate lurches along depending on our overall results. I would keep him as I think we are overall improving. It is interesting that many pundits still feel we are a big threat within the division and I agree. We just need to prove it by going to Luton and QPR and winning!!!

BTW - how do others feel about other results this weekend. Of course, I was happy to see Ipswich lose but I would like to see Reading pegged back. It is good to see some of the promoted teams doing well but I find myself really hating Wigan!! I hope they are this year''s Everton, i.e. do well this year and get relegated next.

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[quote]They''re not posting, they''re not posting, they''re not posting any more, they''re not posting any more.[/quote]

You sad individual - call yourself a proper supporter when you get such obvious pleasure out of having a go at people who get behind their club.  I guess from your name that you aren''t a 7 year old, even though your "wit" would suggest you are.

Wasn''t at the game yesterday, but by all accounts a draw was probably a fair result.  So, we didn''t win a game that on paper we shoud have done - so what?  If the penalty had been scored, or if the hadn''t cleared one off the line, or if Doc''s goal had stood, then we would have won.

I will ALWAYS support my club, not just when we are winning. That to me is what being a supporter is all about.  Being a whinger on the other hand....

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"So, we didn''t win a game that on paper we shoud have done - so what?"

Here''s what. We have a large group of high-earning players, a high-cost stadium that needs to be filled on all occassions to generate money, a high-cost training set up that is used for seemingly no purpose and we are playing very, very, very poor football.

This means the "fans" (I''m talking about the ones that joined circa 2003) don''t show up any more leaving a gaping hole in revenue. Parachute payments cease. Players look to go elsewhere because their career is suffering as a result. The players we have left lose confidence further meaning results suffer badly. Panic situations mean bad decisions are made. The bills cannot get paid. See Norwich 1995 for the rest of the story.

This is a "worst case" scenario, but we''ve seen it too many times in football for it to be funny. If Doc''s goal had stood or Judas hadn''t saved the pen, the result would have done nothing except masked another performance littered with ineptitude.

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"If the penalty had been scored, or if the hadn''t cleared one off the line, or if Doc''s goal had stood, then we would have won."

Sorry to say, Dicky, that this season is littered with "ifs" - the problem is that we didn''t actually do any of the things that the "ifs" are about.  Fot that reason we are struggling to have any consistency, or to make an impact. The responsibility fo "iffy" performances lie squarely at Worthington''s door. He simply is not good enough to take this clyb forward.

 

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[quote]"If the penalty had been scored, or if the hadn''t cleared one off the line, or if Doc''s goal had stood, then we would have won." Sorry to say, Dicky, that this season is littered with "ifs" - the p...[/quote]

So it''s all Worthy''s fault is it?  Or do we blame Hucks and Ashton for missing the penalties?

Or perhaps we realise that football is "a funny old game" and that perhaps it is not necessarily someone''s fault.  A combination of bad luck, teams raising their game against us and just the way things are. 

Sorry, but to blame Worthy for things not going our way is harsh.  Yes he makes mistakes, as we all do (Hucks, Ashton etc). 

Or is it a sign of the blame culture that we have inherited from across the water?

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Mook & Fat Man - astute posts with which I heartily agree. It doesn''t matter about ''ifs'' and ''buts'', only results. And ours speak for themselves. We''ve now got some very tough games coming up, in which I can''t see us doing at all well. This will lead to more loss of confidence within the squad. I can see Ashton, Green and Safri moving on, with Davenport returning to Spurs. We''ll then end up struggling to keep out of the relegation places for the second half of the season. Let''s get a new manager in before we do a Notts Forest and tumble down into the next Division. An no, Dicky, I don''t know who, but anything''s got to be better than the way Worthington''s running the team at the moment.   

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[quote]So it''s all Worthy''s fault is it? Or do we blame Hucks and Ashton for missing the penalties? Or perhaps we realise that football is "a funny old game" and that perhaps it is not necessarily someone''...[/quote]

of course it''s worthys fault, and yes hucks should have put the penalty away but what poeple are anoyed with is that when worthy eventually changed (after 45mins!) things we completly dominated  the game. So if we had started out with 4-4-2 i guarantee you we wouldn''t have been relying on hucks to finish that pen to win the game.

You want promotion - then rubbish like millwall at home should be nothing but 3 points!

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No Dicky, it is not all Worthy''s fault, but the things that are his fault are his fault, not someone else''s and not to be swept aside as if they don''t count. They do. The mistakes he has continued to make over a long time period are critical and he is responsible and accountable for those things and whether or not that''s harsh is irrelevant. It''s not necessary to cite those things as it''s so repetitive. Plus you have your head so deep in the sand now, you not only can''t think straight you are attempting to see in the dark upside down. Holding the manager accountable for underperformance is the name of the game. David Moyes may be a decent manager but his team has scored one goal in eight games. The Everton board know they cannot allow this to go on much longer before taking action. On another thread I spoke about the great manager, Bill Shankly, when he was put in charge at Liverpool back in 1959. Prior to his being recruited, Liverpool had finished in 3rd and 4th place in the second level for several seasons consecutively but, given the clubs investment and fan attendance relative to their competition, they were underperforming and so they made changes and never looked back. On the other hand, given the difficulties being encountered at Ipswich currently, Joe Royle is probably not underperforming. Norwich, having played primarily the poorer teams in the division to date, have managed to win two out of eight home games along with some mediocre performances according to objective observers.. Underperformance? Certainly. 

With respect to your points about bad luck and teams raising their games against us, the number of times Worthy has continued to play people out of position, or the length of time he continued to persevere with Craig Fleming and Gary Holt in the past, or his choice of formation and tactics, these things are not bad luck. With respect to what other attendees of the matches are saying this season, it does not seem that the teams we are playing against are playing out of their socks. And, if I may paraphrase Nigel on that one, it''s not about them, it''s about us. Incidentally, the blame culture does not originate from "over the water". Henry V111 did a pretty good job of dealing out blame that was unwarranted.

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[quote]Sorry, but the ''get behind the team'' fan-boys really are beginning to annoy the hell out of me now. I have watched every home game this season, and the facts of what I have seen do not lie. Worthing...[/quote]

YER AND i''m sick of moaning so called supporters like you lot, support your team for christ sake it''s boring listen to this worthy drivel every time we don''t win.

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Actually, Dicky, the responsibility DOES lie with Worthington for the poor performances this season. In any structured organisation the ultimate responsibility will always lie with the manager.

This season we have failed to perform at the expected level for any length of time longer than 45 consecutive minutes and in many instances our performance has been disjointed and ineffective. Team selections, formations and tactics lie squarely at the feet of Worthington. He persists in playing people out of position and he persists in choosing formations that don''t work. As a result, the return in points this season does not equate to the quality of the players at his disposal.

You will be aware that I use the word responsibility, not "fault" or "blame". The other word that should be used is that Worthington should be accountable for the results of the team - in any other organisation that I am aware of the senior manager is both responsible and accountable.

Given the results last season, and this season, relative to the resource available, then it is highly unlikely Worthington would have kept his job in another environment.

If we accept that a manager''s results are not what is expected, then the only saving grace for keeping the person in place would be the demonstration of an upwards trend, or improvement on a previous period. Unfortunately, Worthington''s teams do not produce an improved performance week in week out, instead they stumble from one confused performance to another with only limited signs of any improvement. For that reason Worthington should go before the consequences of his management result in severe long term damage.

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Yesterdays game was not lost due to a very weak penalty but before the game even started, and on two counts.

As one posters signature claims failing to plan is planning to fail - and that sums up our midfield saturday.   As I have repeatedly stated since August it is gross negligence/mis-management to attempt to go through a season with just 4 recognised midfielders as suspensions, international call ups and injuries will hit at some stage and the first time happened sat.  

Then to have a plan that involves playing the one fit midfielder out of position wide right to accomodate a central defender/left back and another left back is tactical madness highlight when we belatedly reverted to 4-4-2 (and if we are going 4-4-2 Hux HAS to be on the left, not hamstrung on the right)  

The choice of personnel (in squad building or on match days) and tactics  IS only the managers responsibility - no one elses, and so he has to take the flack when it goes wrong as well as the praise when it works. 

The formation is irrelevant - the choice of personnel was key - against Luton our midfield has to be Hux, Jarrett, Brennan & Hendo - which works better as a diamond but should be just as good as a 4-4-2.    

OTBC

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One mans drivel is anothers rationale opinion - just because its not to your taste it does not make it any less right or wrong.

Whatever my views I was behind the team 100% during the game, cheering charlie, JJ etc singing worthingtons green and yella army at full shout.

The fact that I am prepared to questions the clubs decisions does not make any more or less of a fan than any other poster on here.

Behave, and let the ''best/real fans'' posts stop - it does nothing for the club.

OTBC

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Agree entirely with those saying it is down to Worthy. Ok Hucks missed the penalty, ok we have injuries that he can do nothing about but the fact is we lost that game because we played abysmally for 45 minutes and giave ourselves an unecessary mountain to climb. We played badly because we had no midfield. We had no midfield because we played Worthy''s ineffective and shambolic diamond formation again despite the fact that we all know, and can see that it doesn''t work!

We could see it wasn''t working after 10 minutes yet we carried on unchanged until half time.

We can all see that playing Hucks up front doesn''t work as he goes out on the wing all the time leaving Ashton isolated.

We can all see that we have looked at our best as an attacking force with Mcveigh playing up front with Deano.

We can all see that Hcuks has been on fire on the left wing for the last few games. He should have been the first man on the teamsheet on the left with Hendo playing on the right in a normal 4-4-2.

As someone above says the thing that is so galling is that as soon as he chnaged it to what we should have gone wit from the start we took control of the game. The same thing happened last season when everyone could see Holt needed to be dropped and some pace brought in at the back. He chenged it 2 months too late and we suddenly started winning - what a surprise!

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Why? oh why? Is it a criminal offence to criticise the manager?

Like ZLF, I give it my all when I attend the games, home or away- win, lose or draw. It would be a boring world if we all thought the same, and agreed to agree on everything. I heard the crescendo of "BOOING" at halftime. I didn''t participate, but that''s me.....but I certainly don''t bear a  grudge or grievance to those that do-because it is their personal choice and constitutional right (Mr President!).Certainly no "BOOING" during the game though, just good support, so the manager and team were only being sent a message of discontent at the start of the ''interval''. Football generates debate, can be entertaining - and is an excuse to go to the pub afterwards instead of sitting through "Celebrity Come Dancing!"

Keep the opinion''s coming, but please knock the insults on the ''ead!

When I leave the house to go to watch City. My better half including my ''Kinder'' in predictable unison, say: "You''re like a lamb going to the slaughter!" Personally, I just think I''m a "mutton" for punishment........ OTBC ;~) 

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