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Yorkshire  Canary

only 6 worse defences in the championship

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We are second with 20 points which is great built upon our strong and free scoring midfield. Our defending last season was abject and that has continued this season. It will not get any better as the individuals are the same and after approaching a season and a half they cannot learn to do the basics. Whilst there has been loads of talk about strikers in January it is clearly defensive replacements that are needed. We may go up but to do so we are needing to score at least two goals a game which is a big ask. A decent defensive midfielder also needs to be on the shopping list

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Klosse was the great white hope and he did a good job for us when he came in in January. He''s not suddenly become a bad centre half, people have been having a go at McGovern but he pulled off some great saves last night. I don''t actually think it''s about the individuals we have, it''s more about system and a confident understanding between particularly the CH''s and he keeper.

I don''t think we will ever be a good consistent defensive unit until we finally decide on our best combination and stick with it. For me that''s Ruddy Klosse and Bennett.

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The Martin/Bassong axis doesn''t exactly fill me with confidence at any point and we seem far too vulnerable with them to simple punts over the top as both are too slow to turn and react and don''t have the positional sense to cut them out. This is what Klose is generally really good at.

We should have signed another centre half this season, just as we should have signed another striker, instead of spending £10m on midfielders who don''t make the bench.

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We knew martin and bassong are out of their depth in the pl and we deluded ourselves that they were fine for the championship. They ate ok against the lesser teams but that''s it.klosse is a significant upgrade but he misses so many games through injury. I like Bennett bur he looks to have gone backwards this season I don''t know why

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[quote user="VanWink"]Klosse was the great white hope and he did a good job for us when he came in in January. He''s not suddenly become a bad centre half, people have been having a go at McGovern but he pulled off some great saves last night. I don''t actually think it''s about the individuals we have, it''s more about system and a confident understanding between particularly the CH''s and he keeper.

I don''t think we will ever be a good consistent defensive unit until we finally decide on our best combination and stick with it. For me that''s Ruddy Klosse and Bennett.[/quote]I''ve been saying much the same thing. Some of our defenders are getting on a bit plus we''ve lacked a defensive playmaker option for many seasons.In this division we''re good enough going forward, but lack a defensive midfield option similar to a Ben Watson or Peter Whittingham ie someone who can pass and is less prone to getting pinned back.

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Inability to control games when leading has been obvious in most games this season. As Parma rightly commented on another thread, with a two goal lead the game should be over.Something is basically wrong, you don''t get promoted conceding an average of one and a half goals per game.

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I just don''t understand, having just conceded in the 94th minute, how we could possibly concede again pretty much straight from our own kick off

Cardiff, Burton, Newcastle (twice) we have conceded within minutes of a kick off

Neil said after the game last night that he talks to his players about the importance of kick offs, yet we have seem to be at our most vulnerable

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I love the way AN is blaming the team here!

He is the manager who

1 Didnt invest in defence over summer assuming same defence which without Klose struggled badly

2 put on a defender for attacking midfield thus disrupting back formation

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I think AN may be getting too much blame. Who knows what he asked the board to buy in the way of defenders, the clubs transfer policy for a number of years has been scatter gun and somewhat inept. true AN substitutions really since he has been here have been the polar opposite of lambert ie changes things for the worse rather than the better, but he is gone so that train has left the station. other managers would have brought on another defender near the end eg Pullis but the defenders at our disposal are ordinary at best. To be fair the fixture last night was almost like being away to a PL club but as others have said we looked shaky near the end of the Cardiff, Wigan and Burton games against weaker opposition who could not take advantage. If we go up and that clearly is an if at this stage of the season we will need so many players in Defence and defensive midfield, not to mention strikers i see no way that the board can or are capable of doing the business to give us a decent chance of staying up

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Would other managers have made the change so early though?

In the 90th minute fine, but we had to deal with 10minutes of constant pressure because we had no effective outlet.

When you stick an extra defender on, does it not disrupt the rest of the back 4 though? It certainly seems from the highlights that for the 3rd & 4th goal that the defenders are looking at one another as tho to say the other should have gone for it

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Would other managers have made the change so early though?

In the 90th minute fine, but we had to deal with 10minutes of constant pressure because we had no effective outlet.

When you stick an extra defender on, does it not disrupt the rest of the back 4 though? It certainly seems from the highlights that for the 3rd & 4th goal that the defenders are looking at one another as tho to say the other should have gone for it[/quote]Why did we have no effective outlet? Pretty sure there were other players on the pitch, apart from the defence? Players who are perfectly capable of carrying or keeping the ball?People have jumped on this "Oh I would have kept Murphy on" and it has stuck in their heads.Alex Neil reacted to our rapidly retreating defence, and was really only a few minutes from closing the game out. Pretty sure nobody saw 6 minutes added time coming either.But, ultimately, the defence has to look at itself. As soon as they step over the white line they need to know what they are doing, they don''t all stand and look to Alex Neil as to what to do next.

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Because when we cleared the ball, it was always towards Jerome. If he loses the header, the ball comes back. If he wins the header, Newcastle pick it up, the ball comes back. Compounded byv the fact they could then play the ball to Shelvey in acres of space.

With Murphy on, there is a chance of him chasing any header won. Look at our 3rd goal when Murphy was running at Newcastle''s back line. We may not have scored, but it would have given the rest of the team a chance to get composed

They certainly called the 6 minutes added time on the radio before it happened, so it couldnt have been much of a surprise

Did they know what they were doing though? The fact Newcastle won free headers in the 94th & 96th minute, leading to 2 goals suggest they didnt. Did putting that extra defender on help? Or did it cause confusion amongst the back 5 as to who was supposed ton be challenging for the balls in the box?

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I guess the issue with taking off the attacking outlet is that when you are under constant bombardment and pressing from a team who is desperately trying to score an equalizer with time running out is that it is not always possible to pass your way out of defense.

An intelligent long ball into space often becomes the only, or at least the easiest, method of clearing your lines quickly. For that to work you either need a big hold up man or someone with pace who can make use of the space available because the opposition are committed forward.

Replacing Murphy with an extra defender pretty much meant that our susceptible defense were going to get no respite for the remainder of the game. It''s hardly a surprise that defenders who have leaked goals for a more than a season were not up to the task.

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Because when we cleared the ball, it was always towards Jerome. If he loses the header, the ball comes back. If he wins the header, Newcastle pick it up, the ball comes back. Compounded byv the fact they could then play the ball to Shelvey in acres of space.

With Murphy on, there is a chance of him chasing any header won. Look at our 3rd goal when Murphy was running at Newcastle''s back line. We may not have scored, but it would have given the rest of the team a chance to get composed

They certainly called the 6 minutes added time on the radio before it happened, so it couldnt have been much of a surprise

Did they know what they were doing though? The fact Newcastle won free headers in the 94th & 96th minute, leading to 2 goals suggest they didnt. Did putting that extra defender on help? Or did it cause confusion amongst the back 5 as to who was supposed ton be challenging for the balls in the box?[/quote]So its Jerome''s fault for not winning headers then?Sorry, but defenders not doing their job properly was what lost us that game.As I have said somewhere else, its the manner of the defeat that has got peoples backs up, if you hadn''t read a match report, or seen the game, then heard we had lost by one goal away at Newcastle, you would have shrugged your shoulders and moved on.And, frankly, it sounded like Newcastle could have been out of sight in the first 20 minutes.

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Morty:

"Why did we have no effective outlet? Pretty sure there were other players on the pitch, apart from the defence? Players who are perfectly capable of carrying or keeping the ball?

People have jumped on this "Oh I would have kept Murphy on" and it has stuck in their heads."

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Going by the the radio (not a lot admittedly) Brady wasn''t really driving forward, and Murphy was labeled by Holty as the one who was hitting them on the break. This aliviates pressure on our own box somewhat. With 15 minutes to go it didn''t really happen again. So yeah, to answer your point no one else seemed capable of bringing the ball away from our goal, and that''s why people are hung up on the sub. If he was tired it should''ve been like for like. You can''t hope to defend for what ended up being nearly a quarter of the game with players who are pants under pressure and prone to errors against one of the best teams in the league. So blatantly obvious.

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[quote user="SeattleCanary"]Morty:

"Why did we have no effective outlet? Pretty sure there were other players on the pitch, apart from the defence? Players who are perfectly capable of carrying or keeping the ball?

People have jumped on this "Oh I would have kept Murphy on" and it has stuck in their heads."

---------------------------------------------------------------

Going by the the radio (not a lot admittedly) Brady wasn''t really driving forward, and Murphy was labeled by Holty as the one who was hitting them on the break. This aliviates pressure on our own box somewhat. With 15 minutes to go it didn''t really happen again. So yeah, to answer your point no one else seemed capable of bringing the ball away from our goal, and that''s why people are hung up on the sub. If he was tired it should''ve been like for like. You can''t hope to defend for what ended up being nearly a quarter of the game with players who are pants under pressure and prone to errors against one of the best teams in the league. So blatantly obvious.[/quote]So, basically, the problem is that our defenders can''t defend properly.Cheers for backing up my point[Y]

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Read my post again. I said if he wins or loses the header, Newcastle end up with ball back as he had no support at all

I agree. But who should have attacked that ball for Newcastles 3rd? Because I''m sure Bassong & Bennett both looked at each, suggesting they thought the other one should have gone for it.

Of course its the manner of the defeat, because thats what happened. If we had lost 1-0 and not really been in it then that would have received a different - but we were 3-2 up after 94 minutes

They could have been, but they weren''t, so its pretty irrelevant? If we had won, would you have said that we didn''t deserve it because Newcastle could have been out of sight after 20minutes?

As for CBs v wolves, I fully expect Bassong & Martin again if Klose isnt fit. I think Bennett is pretty much finished here & will look to move in January

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[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Read my post again. I said if he wins or loses the header, Newcastle end up with ball back as he had no support at all

I agree. But who should have attacked that ball for Newcastles 3rd? Because I''m sure Bassong & Bennett both looked at each, suggesting they thought the other one should have gone for it.

Of course its the manner of the defeat, because thats what happened. If we had lost 1-0 and not really been in it then that would have received a different - but we were 3-2 up after 94 minutes

They could have been, but they weren''t, so its pretty irrelevant? If we had won, would you have said that we didn''t deserve it because Newcastle could have been out of sight after 20minutes?

As for CBs v wolves, I fully expect Bassong & Martin again if Klose isnt fit. I think Bennett is pretty much finished here & will look to move in January[/quote]Watch this. I agree with whats being said.Defenders not winning headers, not doing their job properly.

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Norwich''s defenders have proved themselves unfit for purpose in the PL, and are rapidly proving themselves u/f/p in the Championship. For all Klose has added in a positive way, his woeful lack of pace is still a factor.

If Norwich win promotion this season, a complete overhaul of the central defenders will be required - not one of them is good enough at the highest level.

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