If you genuinely feel ......

[Mason 47 1,373]

I can''t really imagine Martin or Klose cleaning someone out to put the fear into them. I can imagine Bennett doing so but doing so twice and getting sent off, and I am all too aware of Bassong being excellent at this provided that its entirely by accident.

I''m not saying we really need to get nasty, but we need a bit of guile to us. Presently I don''t think opposition forwards fear anyone in our backline, which will naturally incite them to being taken on. They''re generally all hardworking, well-meaning pros; I can''t help but shake the feeling though that we need a fiercer presence in the team, like Holty was.

[The Bristol Nest 513]

The last ten minutes was a cluck up. Poor decision and poor implementation. Facts to back that up? We lost.

[westcoastcanary 173]

I don''t know Ray, or anyone else on here for that matter, except from what I read on this board. This is the third post Ray has started on the subject of AN''s deficiencies, as he sees them, in man management skills and especially handling of young players. In each case Ray has insisted he has nothing against AN personally, his criticism is meant constructively, his view being AN has a lot to learn in this area, there are people around who could help him if he were open to being helped, and, Ray hopes, someone at the club will recognise the need and drive the learning process forward.

What I take from this is that Ray''s complaints derive in considerable measure from man management, the development of young players and especially the psychological aspects of both, being an area very close to Ray''s own heart and in which he feels himself to be far better versed than either AN or Frankie McAvoy. Ray sits close to the technical area at Carrow Road and monitors AN''s touchline behaviour, clearly disliking and disagreeing with a lot of what he sees and hears. Furthermore, he has access to information from inside the club, and this tells him that some feathers are being ruffled and some negativity generated by what Ray sees as the manager''s shortcomings in these areas. 

Now all or at least some of that may well be true, but I''m inclined to ask "So what?" As morty says, show me a dressing room which doesn''t have ruffled feathers somewhere in it, and show me a complex field of management which doesn''t have room for many different approaches and theories about the best way of handling this or that. To me, as I said about Ray''s earlier post on the subject, there''s a whiff of hobby horse about it. After all, we lie second in the league and our youngsters are getting chances to show what they can do to a far greater extent than under any other recent manager.  

[westcoastcanary 0]

As an addendum to that, again as morty says, one can''t ignore facts. Regarding AN''s and FM''s man mangement and handling of young players, several of us, including LDC, have referred previously to the pair''s record at Hamilton, where both were heavily involved in the Hamilton youth programme, bringing youngsters through into the Hamilton first team, and then managing the first team with the notable success which eventually led to them coming to Carrow Road. AN and FM are not rookies when it comes to these areas of management, and the respect and affection shown to AN when he left for Carrow Road have been widely reported.

[Ray 111]

Westcoast,

Now all or at least some of what you have written may also well be true, however I truly believe you may have missed my point, which I accept could be as a result of my inability to get it across? Why do I believe this, because you then add, "So what?" and then talk about ruffled feathers a la Morty.

You (and others) have between you decided this is now all about someone having their feathers ruffled, a load of tosh I''m afraid, ruffled feathers are a part of life.

A hobby horse, yep, let''s just say I am fervently passionate about my ''hobby horse'', something I am very proud of.

Returning to your final line and my "you may have missed my point", yes we are 2nd in the league, and should be given the squad at our disposal, that''s not to say we should be satisfied with that because it could just as easily be argued we are 22nd in the Premiership. Any organisation that stands still will be overtaken, there are thousands of examples of that in the world and football is no different, so to remain at the top of our game, just as any other business does, we need to be innovative, we need to question our methods, continuously looking for improvement, it is this understanding that prompts my posts as an ''alternative'' view based on my knowledge and experience.

I fully accept some may enjoy this approach and some may not, but I just wish that those that didn''t would steer clear of personal attacks or slights, it could put some people off of posting.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Ray, your "hobby horse" as people are calling it - is good - I applaud your desire to see things developing and improving.  But you say "AN may not be the man to do it".     So in effect you are saying you want somebody different in place, because AN isn''t developing himself or things as you would like.  That is your view, but you have offered nothing positive in suggesting a way forwards.  Does the perfect man for the job exist?  I suggest not.  Are there better managers out there that would fulfil your criteria?  Maybe, but if there are, they are few and far between otherwise we would have got one before now.  You are obviously steeped in football, so go on, name a manager that would do all that you want - or be prepared to change his ways to adapt to everything you want?   Or if you don''t want to name names, do you have someone in mind that would be that person?It''s not easy, is it? 

[Ray 111]

LDC,

You are jumping to an assumption, I have said I want him to become a top manager and to do that here, nowhere have I said I want him replaced, so your question is somewhat redundant, particularly as I have given no thought to that subject.

I have sort of suggested a way forward and that is that someone at the club offers to source all the help required for AN to be that top manager, now that involves all sorts of performance reviews, etc. etc. and one would like to think these are ongoing for such a key position. He is after all still a novice in the whole scheme of things and by that I mean in time served.

If there was a perfect man for the job and I wouldn''t for one moment suggest I am the best judge of that, we would probably have to fork out £300,000 per week?

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

I think the ''Hobby Horse'' to which Ray refers may simply be his passion for the psychology of human achievement...

[nutty nigel 7,507]

Ray''s passion is genuine and interesting. I think people jump to conclusions because of his style of debate and asking questions of us. It wasn''t so long ago Ray was asking us questions about Russell Martin. A lot of those remain unanswered and, like with this thread, it was turned round to be about Ray.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Ray"]LDC,

You are jumping to an assumption, I have said I want him to become a top manager and to do that here, nowhere have I said I want him replaced, so your question is somewhat redundant, particularly as I have given no thought to that subject.

I have sort of suggested a way forward and that is that someone at the club offers to source all the help required for AN to be that top manager, now that involves all sorts of performance reviews, etc. etc. and one would like to think these are ongoing for such a key position. He is after all still a novice in the whole scheme of things and by that I mean in time served.

If there was a perfect man for the job and I wouldn''t for one moment suggest I am the best judge of that, we would probably have to fork out £300,000 per week?[/quote]

Quote:  "I want NCFC to have a progressive, young, quick learning manager and it

would be great if it is the current incumbent, it’s just that at the

moment I’m not sure Alex Neil fits all the aforementioned requirements –

I sincerely hope I am wrong."

On reading this in your op,  the implication is that you are indeed thinking we would need to get somebody else, unless in your eyes AN shows something more of what you want.  You have said something very similar in past threads too.  Saying ''I hope I am wrong'' is all very well, but it doesn''t sound as if you are very optimistic about the possibility!

[westcoastcanary 0]

Ray,If you engage in "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, I know something but I''m not going to say what", you must expect people to hazard guesses at what you are referring to. "Ruffled feathers" is simply a usefully unspecific expression which could be filled out in many different ways, but, unlike you, we don''t have the necessary insider information to do it. So in effect I''m saying "Whatever it is Ray is referring to, my question is "So what?". Nobody is saying there is no room for improvement, but there are many different ways to skin a cat and, based on what is in the

public arena about AN (and FM) in their Hamilton days, and the evidence

in front of us as far as our club youngsters are concerned, I see no

reason for particular concern. I have confidence in AN to move himself forward in this area of his management, as in others.Re. personal attacks, nothing in what I said was intended as such, as opposed to analysis and comment on the content of your post(s). If you found something I said personally offensive, I apologise.westcoastcanary

[Ray 111]

LDC,

So, my saying "that at the moment I''m not sure he fits the requirements," following on from "it would be great if it is the current incumbent" and adding elsewhere that "I hope the club are able to identify and offer him all the help he needs to become a real force", means I want him gone? I guess you could draw that conclusion, well you have so need to guess, I guess.

Just for clarity, if I wanted him gone, I would have said, IMO he should be gone.

Hope that clears that up?

[Ray 111]

Thanks Nutty,

Yep, I like to phrase my posts in a manner that gets us thinking in depth and which enables posters to put a constructive and well constructed counter, as opposed to offering myself up as the sacrificial lamb, doesn''t always work that way as we know.

Sometimes I get the feeling that even if I told my life story (which for everyone''s sake and for the avoidance of doubt, I will not be) it would be questioned, along the lines of, "Well, were you actually there Ray?"

[lake district canary 4,531]

Fair enough Ray.  I''m probably guilty doing what certain others do to me - reading too much into things.  However, taken overall your posts in recent times about AN, do seem to have been a little negative about him with a slightly "round the houses" approach and all I''ve tried to do is get some clarity.

[Ray 111]

Westcoast,

I fully expect some people to hazard a guess but they should not be surprised if I inform them their guess is wrong and surely would appreciate being informed they are on a wild goose chase.

Personal attacks can be made by the attacker but are only personal to the attackee if the attackee believes them to be, so far I have not deemed anything you have said to or about me to be a personal attack, so all good there.

On a separate note, and I think I may have asked this before, but many a beer has probably flowed since then, so please forgive me if I have, whereabouts on the westcoast do you reside.

Cheers

[Ray 111]

LDC,

I can fully accept you may feel that and if it helps for clarity, I suppose if I were rating my positivity feelings about the performance of our manager on a scale of 1 to 10 they would be around 5, but that is a positivity rating not a negativity one. Or on a school report it may say, tries hard but could do better. Mind you mine often said something similar, normally because any spare time was spent with a ball of one sort or another, read into that what you will!!!

[FenwayFrank 2,450]

I don''t really think people can comment on AN''s man management skills unless they spend time at Colney or know a player. Making assumptions from a post match interview doesn''t mean too much in my opinion

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Ray"]Westcoast,

I fully expect some people to hazard a guess but they should not be surprised if I inform them their guess is wrong and surely would appreciate being informed they are on a wild goose chase.

Personal attacks can be made by the attacker but are only personal to the attackee if the attackee believes them to be, so far I have not deemed anything you have said to or about me to be a personal attack, so all good there.

On a separate note, and I think I may have asked this before, but many a beer has probably flowed since then, so please forgive me if I have, whereabouts on the westcoast do you reside.

Cheers[/quote] [Y] second para refers! Where do I live? I''m itinerant, but most of the time I''m based in north LA, in "the Valley". 

Just finally on this, like LDC, I did think the tone of your OP was at variance with your protestations re. your attitude towards AN, for example the comments about the selection of Bassong. The sarcy comment about Klose not being left footed seemed to me uncalled for, taking AN''s quoted explanation as complete. A more sympathetic, and IMO more probably correct, interpretation would have been that what was quoted was only part of the full explanation of why AN preferred Bassong at LCB, left foot and all, over a right-footed Bennett.

[Ray 111]

Cheers Westcoast, in the 80''s as normal?

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Ray"]Cheers Westcoast, in the 80''s as normal?[/quote]Ha! been hotter, but due to return to more like normal. Let me know if you are ever this way, and please bring rain .......... [:D]