No defence. No mental strength. No promotion.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

Another ringing endorsement of Ray''s excellent and well-reasoned post. [Y]

[Nuff Said 5,089]

Parma, whose opinion on football I do rate, unlike most of the armchair experts on here, wrote an excellent post on why Martin has been picked consistently by all our managers since he joined us, and has been chosen by his fellow professionals as the best in his league.

Can''t search for it easily on my phone, but worth seeking out.

[Ray 111]

Nuff Said,

Is this what you are referring to;

One very important tactical benefit was the fluidity and positioning of Russell Martin. Because Martin is comfortable at right back - and indeed stepping into defensive midfield areas and starting passing play - he splits noticeably wider than Bennett does for example.

From the outset Martin splitting wider, taking responsibility to cover more space, allowed Pinto''s starting position to be around 20 yards higher than Olsson''s starting position on the other side.

This clearly suits Pinto''s strengths, though it also clearly allowed for a back three in defence in good possession, with a more defined back four without the ball.

[93vintage 16]

If we can''t pass the ball properly or keep it then we''re going to run into these kinds of issues. I''m not sure it''s strictly down to confidence either, we''re just not up to scratch.

[Gordon Bennett 780]

Newcastle are showing us (and everyone else) how it''s done because they will win the by a large margin and probably get 100+ points. Their squad is far stronger than anyone else''s and they have the thirteenth highest paid manager in Europe.

As for us, we are ticking over nicely. There are undoubtedly things to work on defensively and in terms of ball retention but the idea is to peak after Xmas for the run in and I believe that we will.

[Gordon Bennett 780]

*win the league

[ZLF 271]

This season is has become clear that the managers approach to CBs is that right side is a choice between Martin and Bennett and the left klose and bassong.

Klose is some way ahead of all of the others, so will start on the left.

My view is that while Martin is not perfect, and I would be looking to upgrade if we secure promotion, he is a very good CB in this league and more importantly, he really is a better defender than bennett, especially in terms of concentration, positioning and most crucially use of the ball.

However the issue with us losing two goal leads is not about the personnel in the back line, it is a whole team thing and in my view probably an unconscious switching off thinking the game is won with a subsequent realisation that if we play at half throttle we are not good enough to continue to dominate the game.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Sorry but every one of our other centre backs struggles playing next to Martin because his positional sense is poor and he does not make the instinctive movements of a centre back. Bassong played well alongside Bennett at Everton yet was back to his shambolic worst against Newcastle.

The partnership of Klose and Bennett at the start of the season looked so much more solid and I don''t really see what Bennett did to deserve being dropped. I know we had a bad game at Brum but they did have Whitaker having a mare at right back which again would make it difficult for any centre half.

Look at what Scotland fan say about their current CB partnership and you will see some common themes.

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

All the disagreements about personnel and the respective merits of Martin and Bennett are of course somewhat valid.

However the OP, despite a degree of mischief making, has a valid point.

It is our defence that might cause us to miss out on automatics rather than the previously assumed lack of a potent striker.

For the latter, Jerome is doing well whilst the Murphys and the rest of the midfield are potent.

I would hope now that adding a strong and influential defender is now a priority for the next window and not the striker we all assumed would be vital.

I would like to see Thompson given more exposure. He could be useful in this respect.

[John C 0]

Agree with the above but a striker must also still be a priority in January. My concern is Jerome getting injured.

[John C 0]

Can''t help thinking, of course,that it was a shame we didn''t buy Gayle.

[Keith Scott 243]

Just thought I''d give this thread a timely bump.

[Herman 9,717]

Why not. All the other tw@s are on here tonight.

[Highland Canary 76]

Time to look for an experienced manager capable of both motivating the team and strengthening its belief. What a pity we missed out on both Bruce and Warnock.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

[quote user="Keith Scott"]Just thought I''d give this thread a timely bump.[/quote]Nothing you say can hide the fact that your lot lost 1-0 to Stevenage in the first round.

[Making Plans 936]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"]Another ringing endorsement of Ray''s excellent and well-reasoned post. [Y][/quote]And now another. How long do we have to wait before somebody sorts our long established and deep seated problems out.Or are we just going to carry on as though it doesn''t matter

[Keith Scott 243]

Spot on Highland.

[Making Plans 936]

[quote user="Herman"]Why not. All the other tw@s are on here tonight.[/quote]The only tw@ts on here are those that connot see what''s happening before their very eyes.

[Herman 9,717]

I can see a lot of tw@s having a meltdown. And quite a few others on the wind up.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

[quote user="Making Plans"][quote user="Feedthewolf"]Another ringing endorsement of Ray''s excellent and well-reasoned post. [Y][/quote]And now another. How long do we have to wait before somebody sorts our long established and deep seated problems out.Or are we just going to carry on as though it doesn''t matter[/quote]It''s a tough call.On the one hand, with the squad available to him, Neil knows the attack is stronger than the defence, so he is trying to win games by attacking. Logical. Until Saturday''s misfire (in which we still had 19 shots at goal), we had scored two or more goals in each of our last nine matches.On the other hand, the defensive issues show no signs of improving. But where do you draw the line? I would rather watch us play Alex Neil football that hire another Hughton who will ''shore us up'' but suck all the joy out of the football. The guy is still only 35 years old, and while he needs to learn fast, I think we need to give him more time to arrest the slide. If we''re outside the top six in December, by all means swing the axe and bring in someone with a bit more experience and gravitas in the transfer market.I do feel that Neil is showing signs of strain, and doesn''t seem to have the calm authority and confidence he had a year ago. It may seem a bit of a strange comparison, but I was listening to Sean Dyche on 5 Live last night and was struck by what a charismatic, knowledgeable and humorous guy he was - what if Burnley hadn''t given him the chance to grow and learn, and had just given him the boot at the first sign of trouble?The board''s patience should not be limitless, but a good result on Saturday and we''re right back in amongst it. Lose at Brighton, and there''s massive pressure on the Leeds match just before the international break - should we lose our next two, I fear for him.

[Van wink 2,994]

Good post FTW

[unique 434]

The sad fact is that this season has proved that we don''t have even one defender on the books that is good enough or consistent enough to play at PL level, and that includes Klose.

Promotion would require a complete overhaul, which Smith and Jones clearly don''t have the funds for.

A specialist defensive coach should be a priority.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,511]

That''s unfair on Klose in my view. Can''t expect one person to prop up everybody around him.

[GJP 79]

Not really sure what "Alex Neil football" is as a playing style.

I don''t think he''s got us being particularly adventurous or stylish.

I mean I didn''t care for the style of football under Hughton but he knew what he was about and so did we. With AN I sometimes think he would like to see himself as attack minded but is actually fairly cautious.

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

[quote user="GJP"]Not really sure what "Alex Neil football" is as a playing style.

I don''t think he''s got us being particularly adventurous or stylish.

I mean I didn''t care for the style of football under Hughton but he knew what he was about and so did we. With AN I sometimes think he would like to see himself as attack minded but is actually fairly cautious.[/quote]He''s still working it out, definitely - and I do have concerns that in the year since the Newcastle away debacle in the Prem, he''s called so much of his previous strategy into question that he''s actually having a real crisis of confidence. This squad should definitely be within touching distance of the top two - which we are - but fall too far off that course and it''ll be the first true test of Moxey''s leadership skills.But still, if we do go then please let''s not go down the Hughton(esque) road again. I couldn''t hack another two years of that.

[hogesar 9,618]

There were some not-so-bad games under Hughton but there were also enough games where I questioned if watching football was for me anymore.

For some reason Newcastle at home sticks in my mind - but in the same way doesn''t as i can''t remember any of it - I may have been in a coma to be fair.

[Highland Canary 76]

This shambles has been coming. Allardyce if we''re willing to pay; Lambert the cheaper option.

The most expensive option being Alex Neil. This would mean another lost decade, or worse, in the chumps.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

The club have got to do somthing. The squad is a complete mix match, and an expensive one at that! Too many similar players, and areas where we are too thin.

We need some steel. Our last two promotions from this league we had that in Andrew Crofts, and then BJ.

Dorrans is great at recycling postion, but to maximise his game we need a hard man with legs next to him. Alex Tettey is fast becoming past it, and offers very little.

We also need some proper defenders. Klose, I''m afraid, just isn''t cut out for strong, no nonsense defending which is absolutely required for this league. Bennetts early promise is an alarming distant memory, Bassong is a mistake waiting to happen, Martin is too average, Olsson and Pinto care more about getting forward.

We seem to have slipped into a trap thinking we have kept premier league players too good for this level. But in reality, we''ve got too many players not suited to the rigours of championship football.

We would have been better off losing Klose and signing a player like Lewis Dunk.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

I hate to admit it, but I think the scene is set for Lambert.

He''d shake this squad up and be prepared to drop the underperforming so called star players.

[Carra Rud 17]

Lincoln the club is rotten to the core always has been, even when the team does well some idiot will find a way to feck it up. Lambert and Holty treated like shi.t in recent years as was Mark Robbins and plenty of others, selling good players, buying garbage like RVW, never having any money... same old carp!