Michael McGowern

[Tetteys Jig 830]

can we get rudd back in January?

[danielsroundabout 9]

Can''t argue with Ricardo talking of MM, "Lack of physical presence, unable to dominate his area, good shot stopping is nowhere near enough at this level."

But with JR as the alternative, we take a backward step in practically all features of the discipline. Yes, JR has a bigger physical presence but this gives him little in the way of an advantage, hamstrung as he has been for a couple of years by such a desperately low self confidence. In other respects McGovern edges him anyway. A bit like the US election, who is the least worst.

[nutty nigel 7,530]

Which is what I was saying. In both cases we first turn to weaknesses. That suggests to me there''s not too many positives with either at the moment.

We know Ruddy can be good a enough but that is from a while ago now. He should be playing next week now and it will be his shirt to lose.

[hogesar 9,658]

I''ve not been a fan of McGovern in goal from the start but in all honestly he''s mostly made me shut my mouth by not really doing much wrong.

The problem I have is take the Leeds game and Ruddy looked poor to me, as quite common with him his kicking was all over the place.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

don''t honestly know what people expected... more than often it''s proven you get what you pay for. ruddy was slightly the wrong side of that, rudd was a home grown bonus and yet we downgraded. mcgovern was never good enough. seems his best is like ruddy on a normal day and his worst is worse than ruddy has ever been.

hate to scapegoat but McGovern is a massive problem for us. anyone that wants to argue, I have countless memories of footage I will begrudgingly link back to testify. ruddy isn''t the Lord and savior but he is twice the player mcgovern is and makes the back 4 twice as good at least.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

look at it this way... Hamiltons best player of the last 5 years can''t get into our team. out 4th choice goalie squeaks into their team, our 5th choice striker is backup for them. what actually suggests mcgovern was ever anywhere near good enough for Norwich?

before you comment, no mcgovern hasn''t fucked my girlfriend, just my club.

I feel he is one of the main reasons why we are losing in the league and making the likes of klose look like idiots.

I think olsson while capable is the most overrated left back in the championship, pinto is good. (full stop). Bennett is average, klose is decent but can''t do it on his own and isn''t worth £20m so we should have let him go... Martin is average but just the type of guy our squad needs and Turner may be worth a recall...

at the end of the day though, if tettey continues his captain Jack sparrow impersonation and we continue with the hopeless mcgovern, what hope does the defence have?!

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Jacko"] McGovern has done a solid job so far and is our best keeper.[/quote]Its obvious you''ve never played in goal. His deficiencies have been obvious from the start.Lack of physical presence, unable to dominate his area, good shot stopping is nowhere near enough at this level.[/quote]I have played in goal and I coach goalkeepers Ricky. McGovern has done a solid job until today and if we had Lev Yashin in goal against Brighton the result would still have been the same.

[Mason 47 1,376]

A trampoline would keep a clean sheet if every shot was kicked straight at it.

His rushing out is very good, and he does get down quite well, but ultimately that''s where his positives run a bit dry for me. I feel like a lot of the time he leans on the penalty premise that keepers aren''t really expected to make saves but it''s a bonus if they do.

Take Ipswich for example- 25 yards out with reasonable power, yet it was a bit of a scufff and it wasn''t even really right in the corner. But when he hit it, I didn''t think McGovern would reach it.

JR is not the keeper he was, but we have to be very aware that 11 games without a clean sheet is not a normal thing to happen for a stronger team in a lesser league. Changes must be made.

[BroadstairsR 2,162]

We need a new ''keeper.

McGovern''s signing always puzzled me when we had Rudd.

Until today he''s been OK, but rather JR any day,

New ''keeper? They have a decent one down the road. Probably the only player they have worthy of interest.

£2-3m and they will accept.

[Making Plans 936]

[quote user="he"]Unbelievable error from the keeper. [/quote]Golfers miss short putts, tennis players serve double faults, cricketers drop easy catches, jockeys fall off horses. It''s called sport, it''s unpredicable and that''s what makes it interesteing.

[Nuff Said 5,126]

Slowly but surely Rudd is becoming the best keeper we have in the eyes of a lot of posters. Is there some sort of inverse Pink Un law, where the further the player is from the first team, the greater the enhancement to their reputation? Seems to be happening to Turner too.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]if we had Lev Yashin in goal against Brighton the result would still have been the same.[/quote]What utter horse$hit.Yashin was once of the greatest keepers ever to grace the game, and you''re making out he''d have done no better than McGovern, despite the fact that at least 3 (if not 4) of the goals were either down to McGovern or he should have done MUCH better.It''s a f**king insult to Yashin, and clearly shows you don''t have a clue what makes a good keeper, because good keepers don''t do what MM did repeatedly against Brighton...

[im spartacus canary 0]

Reminds me of paul Gallagher back in the worthy days , a good shot stopper and a few lucky performances endeared him to the fans but no physical presence and ended up at dunfermline pretty soon after

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]if we had Lev Yashin in goal against Brighton the result would still have been the same.[/quote]What utter horse$hit.Yashin was once of the greatest keepers ever to grace the game, and you''re making out he''d have done no better than McGovern, despite the fact that at least 3 (if not 4) of the goals were either down to McGovern or he should have done MUCH better.It''s a f**king insult to Yashin, and clearly shows you don''t have a clue what makes a good keeper, because good keepers don''t do what MM did repeatedly against Brighton...[/quote]Hyperbole old boy.And to lay the blame just a McGovern for yesterday would go to show that you don''t have a clue Indy. The whole team from front to back was dreadful, and that was the point I was trying to make. Not that Yashin, who saved over 150 penalties, is still the only keeper to have won the Ballon d''Or, is probably the best keeper to have ever played the game and is a player I greatly admired and looked up to, was a bad goalie.

[BroadstairsR 2,162]

"Slowly but surely Rudd is becoming the best keeper we have in the eyes of a lot of posters. Is there some sort of inverse Pink Un law, where the further the player is from the first team, the greater the enhancement to their reputation?"

Bit of a daft interpretation that.

I just happen to think Rudd is the better prospect, always have.

Trying to work out exactly what he did wrong to instigate the arrival of McGovern who is nothing more than a decent pro .Either we have these promising youngsters in the pipeline or we sell them into L2.

McGovern has done well, but please give me a single reason why he is a better option than the now loaned out Declan Rudd.

Perhaps neither is top notch, so we probably still need a new ''keeper.

[Highland Canary 76]

We haven''t had a quality keeper since Forster. McGovern was undeniably weak yesterday. The shrug of the shoulders from the referee when Murray eased him off the ball for the first said it all really - should have been stronger. But to lay the blame at the keeper''s shoulders yesterday is a gross oversimplification. The players simply appeared disinterested. This lack of engagement is firmly Neil''s responsibility and his failure. Without a manager who can make the players believe - think Bruce, Warnock, Lambert - we are set for a below half place finish. Utterly predictable as will be the lost decade in the chump that will follow. Change now. Get Lambert. And maybe, just maybe, we might still nick a playoff spot.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]And to lay the blame just a McGovern for yesterday would go to show that you don''t have a clue Indy. The whole team from front to back was dreadful, and that was the point I was trying to make.[/quote]A) If McGovern hadn''t made such as hash of a perfectly reasonable backpass, we wouldn''t have gone 1-0 down to begin with.B) If your point was about the whole team being dreadful, then damn well say so instead of spouting a load of irrelevant guff about Yashin, because in truth if Yashin had been in goal, he wouldn''t have conceded the first, and would probably have got a solid hand on the others if not stopped them completely, so the comparison is laughable. Keepers like Yashin and P.Schmeichel regularly and consistently saved games - keepers like MM will not...C) I still find MM at fault for at least 3 of the goals (even if the team play that lead to them was shocking), and those were mistakes that a top keeper doesn''t make - or if they do, it''s once in a blue moon, not 3 in the same game...

[Yellow Wal 314]

14/09/2016, 12:28 PM

Yellow Wal

Re: John Ruddy

Good goalkeepers do not necessarily have to make saves as quite often, by their presence, collection of crosses, positioning, vocal attributes and organisation of defences they stop the shots before they are made.

MM made some good stops last night, and is a very capable backup, but I feel, overall, JR is the better keeper and should return.

___________________________________________________________

I made the above post on 14th September.

My opinion has not changed.

[BroadstairsR 2,162]

Strange interlude really.

Strange signing.

If it was decided that JR was no longer up to it, and Ruddy would never be, then we needed a serious signing in that department not an ageing shot stopper.

All ''keepers are decent shot stoppers (I was myself but relied upon Durex really.)

Either we have good enough ''keepers in Rudd and Ruddy or we invest in new. Not stop gaps.

[king canary 7,604]

He''s never really inspired confidence for me and all we''ve done is leave ourselves with two ''decent'' keepers, no clear number 1 and our best young keeper out on loan.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]And to lay the blame just a McGovern for yesterday would go to show that you don''t have a clue Indy. The whole team from front to back was dreadful, and that was the point I was trying to make.[/quote]A) If McGovern hadn''t made such as hash of a perfectly reasonable backpass, we wouldn''t have gone 1-0 down to begin with.B) If your point was about the whole team being dreadful, then damn well say so instead of spouting a load of irrelevant guff about Yashin, because in truth if Yashin had been in goal, he wouldn''t have conceded the first, and would probably have got a solid hand on the others if not stopped them completely, so the comparison is laughable. Keepers like Yashin and P.Schmeichel regularly and consistently saved games - keepers like MM will not...C) I still find MM at fault for at least 3 of the goals (even if the team play that lead to them was shocking), and those were mistakes that a top keeper doesn''t make - or if they do, it''s once in a blue moon, not 3 in the same game...[/quote]A. If Tettey had passed the ball forwards instead of looking to go back, there would have been no danger of the keeper making an error. Period. B. Since coming into the team McGovern has made a string of impressive saves which have consistently earned us points when the side have been playing poorly this season, so saying that he will not is a nonsense, because he already has. Added to this I can think of many errors that great keepers like Schmeichel made during his career, getting lobbed by Phillipe Albert when Newcastle hammered Man Utd 5-0 at St James Park springs to mind. He didn''t manage to save many points that day did he? All goal keepers have bad games, and generally when they do it costs the team dear because they are the last line of defence. Here, watch this and if you think McGovern was responsible for at least 3 of the goals, you must think the same for at least three of these goals then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK4wFKYtipoC. Even if the team play that lead up to them was shocking? Well if the defensive play before hand wasn''t shocking (i.e. a center half attempting a Cruyff turn in their own half) he wouldn''t have had the opportunity to make the mistake would he? So placing the blame for defeat squarely at his feet is utterly ridiculous and just goes to show that actually you have no appreciation of what it takes to be a goalkeeper.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"] you have no appreciation of what it takes to be a goalkeeper.

[/quote]I played in goal during my younger years albeit at a low amateur level, so I have some appreciation for what is needed.It was pretty obvious from my first viewing of McGovern where his qualities and his deficiencies lay and I said so at the time. Some good shot stopping covered up the weaknesses in the rest of his game but it was obvious that it couldn''t last.and it didn''t.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"] you have no appreciation of what it takes to be a goalkeeper.

[/quote]I played in goal during my younger years albeit at a low amateur level, so I have some appreciation for what is needed.It was pretty obvious from my first viewing of McGovern where his qualities and his deficiencies lay and I said so at the time. Some good shot stopping covered up the weaknesses in the rest of his game but it was obvious that it couldn''t last.and it didn''t.[/quote]That quote wasn''t meant for you Ricardo, it was aimed at Indy and his straw man argument aimed at tearing down MM. As a member of the goalkeepers union then, I would expect a little more solidarity towards McGovern from you. I agree that McGovern has plus and minus points, but the same can be equally said though for Rudd and Ruddy. None of them are set to be all time greats, and with the history we have of good keepers (Nethercott, Kennon, Keelan, Woods, Gunn etc) they aren''t likely to make the hall of fame. All of them are going to be prone to errors, look at Ruddy over the last few years, his drop in form coincided with a terrible defensive record. So it''s a little like a chicken and egg situation, is a keeper playing below standard the reason for our defensive frailties or are our defensive frailties the reason for our keeper playing below standard?I think the truth is that it''s a bit reciprocal, and that one has an influence over the other.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]A. If Tettey had passed the ball forwards instead of looking to go back, there would have been no danger of the keeper making an error. Period.[/quote]Oh right, so we can''t make any safe defensive passes anymore, they all have to go forwards, because otherwise we have to expect the keeper to completely fluff a simple ball back and cost us a goal - don''t talk wet ffs![quote]B. Here, watch this and if you think McGovern was responsible for at least 3 of the goals, you must think the same for at least three of these goals then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK4wFKYtipo[/quote]Schmeichel was at fault for ONE of those goals - the Albert lob.Goal 1 - Peacock unmarked header with 2 other Newc players in front of/obstructing Schmeichel''s view (with the defender''s doing little to help) and he didn''t expect the header to take that trajectory either - Not his faultGoal 2 - Screamer from Ginola - No ChanceGoal 3 - Two Man Utd defenders to mark Ferdinand and NEITHER of them manage it leaving him to plant a great, and powerful header in - Not Schmeichel''s fault (unless you think he should charge into TWO of his own centre backs who should easily deal with the cross from Shearer).Goal 4 - Schmeichel makes a superb double save (and nearly triple), but the defenders can''t be arsed to deal with Shearer who''s there for the THIRD rebound following PS''s two great stops - Couldn''t have done more than he didGoal 5 - Albert goal, PS was too far off his line for no good reason, a great lob from Albert and absolutely Schmeichel''s fault.So in essence, absolutely f**k all like MM yesterday, and it''s embarrasing you''re trying to compare the two performances.[quote]C.  So placing the blame for defeat squarely at his feet is utterly ridiculous and just goes to show that actually you have no appreciation of what it takes to be a goalkeeper.[/quote]Let''s do the Schmeichel thing and analyse the 5 goalsGoal 1 - Tettey plays an easy backpass to MM, who completely miscontrols it with the touch of a baby elephant and they score into the empty net he''s left - MM''s fault entirely, and blaming Tettey is just ridiculous. This also put us behind when in truth neither side looked like scoring up to that point.Goal 2 - Poor defending, with half the main defence ball watching and those coming back to assist simply don''t mark up and they score despite supposedly being covered by 2 of our players (and a 3rd in the mix) - Not MM''s faultGoal 3 - MM fails miserably to make his mind up and by the time he goes to challenge for the ball, they''ve already put it past him - Partially MM''s fault, partially weak defence in the air but MM should have done much better.Goal 4 - MM pushing to stop the ball going out, but then plays a short, powerful punt to Bennett who can''t control it due to the pace and the fact he wasn''t expecting it, they then score as MM flaps in a desperate attempt to get a hand to it - MM''s fault due to awful and unnecessary kick to Bennett.Goal 5 - Awful choice and slip in midfield, Tettey then turned off completely, simple ball played through and good chip finish - Not MM''s faultSo two absolute nailed on certs for being MM''s fault, a third which is 60/40 between him and defence, and 2 that he can''t be faulted for.Again, absolutely nothing like the Schmeichel scenario vs Newcastle, and to re-iterate, it was MM''s awful touch that conceded the first goal which set the tone for everything else, and by the time he''d flapped for the 3rd goal, it was already 2/3rd''s his fault we were 3-0 down...

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]As a member of the goalkeepers union then, I would expect a little more solidarity towards McGovern from you. I agree that McGovern has plus and minus points, but the same can be equally said though for Rudd and Ruddy. None of them are set to be all time greats, and with the history we have of good keepers (Nethercott, Kennon, Keelan, Woods, Gunn etc) they aren''t likely to make the hall of fame. All of them are going to be prone to errors, look at Ruddy over the last few years, his drop in form coincided with a terrible defensive record. So it''s a little like a chicken and egg situation, is a keeper playing below standard the reason for our defensive frailties or are our defensive frailties the reason for our keeper playing below standard?I think the truth is that it''s a bit reciprocal, and that one has an influence over the other.

[/quote]I have every sympathy for goalkeeping mistakes having made all of them at some time during my playing days. My position is that John Ruddy is the better option, I offer it as my opinion, no more no less.

[nutty nigel 7,530]

Whichever one is on the bench will get better as each week passes. Same happened last season with Ruddy and Rudd.

If Ruddy doesn''t get a turn next week he probably never will and then his stock will rise to international proportions[;)]

[Yellow Wal 314]

Iwans Big Toe wrote:

you have no appreciation of what it takes to be a goalkeeper.

______________________________________________________________

I made my comments above after having played for more than thirty years for junior and senior clubs in this county in goal.

I think have some appreciation of what it takes.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Yellow Wal"]14/09/2016, 12:28 PM

Yellow Wal

Re: John Ruddy

Good goalkeepers do not necessarily have to make saves as quite often, by their presence, collection of crosses, positioning, vocal attributes and organisation of defences they stop the shots before they are made.

MM made some good stops last night, and is a very capable backup, but I feel, overall, JR is the better keeper and should return.

___________________________________________________________

I made the above post on 14th September.

My opinion has not changed.[/quote]I said this on 10th Sept after the Cardiff gameIt was three points but not as we know or expect it Jim. We won but were a

long way short of convincing and something will surely be wrong if John

Ruddy is not back between the sticks on Tuesday night.My opinion hasn''t changed either

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

Your double standards are ridiculous Indy. You try to justify a poor goalkeeping performance from Schmiechel whilst doing a hatchet job on McGovern because you''ve painted yourself into a corner. What your motivation is for doing so I can not fathom.Lets look at the goals from each game from a more measured perspective.Brighton 5 - Norwich 01. An under pressure Tettey plays a dangerous and unnecessary back pass to the keeper, immediately putting him under pressure from Murray who harries McGovern into a bad touch, then barges him over stealing the ball and almost contrives to miss an open goal.2. After giving the ball away cheaply, City are hit on the counter and do not track back quick enough. This results in an excellent ball into the box where Murray ghosts in between 3 Norwich defenders to rise unchallenged and power a header down and past McGovern before he has a chance to react.3. A good corner to the back post sees a free header from 4 yards out. Who ever was supposed to be marking Dunn did not do their job properly which resulted in a goal.4. A weak clearance from the keeper and terrible control from Bennett sees Murray clean through with just McGovern to beat, which he does comfortably. If Tettey is not at fault for the first because of MM''s bad control, MM can not be blamed for Bennett''s failure to control the ball. You can''t have it both ways old boy.5. Klose does his best impression of a drunk Johann Cruyff, and while three Norwich defenders stand and admire his ability to fall flat on his backside, Knockaert waltzes through a non-existent back line and coolly slots past a helpless McGovern.

Now,Newcastle 5 - Man Utd 01. After being unable to clear their lines a basic ball back into the box sees a Darren Peacock free header which Schmicheal misjudges, resulting with him falling on his backside. Dennis Irwin then just fails to stop the ball crossing the line.2. The mercurial David Ginola takes a touch 20 yards from goal and blasts a worldy into the top right hand corner. Two goalkeepers wouldn''t have been able to stop that shot from going in.3. A great ball into the box from Shearer sees Ferdinand power a header past Peter Schmicheal who is rooted to the spot like an oak tree.4. A Beardsley shot is not dealt with properly by Schmicheal who parries the ball down into the path of Ferdinand who is standing in the six yard box. Ferdinand then shoots straight at the keeper who once again parries the ball into the six yard box where an unmarked Shearer powers the ball into the bottom corner.5. Albert picks up the ball 45 yards out, he advances 10-15 yards then, spotting the keeper 12 yards off his line, lobs the ball into an unguarded net.So actually both keeping performances were poor, but at the same time neither keeper was solely responsible for the 5-0 drubbing their team received. I hope that clears things up for you.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Iwans Big Toe"]As a member of the goalkeepers union then, I would expect a little more solidarity towards McGovern from you. I agree that McGovern has plus and minus points, but the same can be equally said though for Rudd and Ruddy. None of them are set to be all time greats, and with the history we have of good keepers (Nethercott, Kennon, Keelan, Woods, Gunn etc) they aren''t likely to make the hall of fame. All of them are going to be prone to errors, look at Ruddy over the last few years, his drop in form coincided with a terrible defensive record. So it''s a little like a chicken and egg situation, is a keeper playing below standard the reason for our defensive frailties or are our defensive frailties the reason for our keeper playing below standard?I think the truth is that it''s a bit reciprocal, and that one has an influence over the other.

[/quote]I have every sympathy for goalkeeping mistakes having made all of them at some time during my playing days. My position is that John Ruddy is the better option, I offer it as my opinion, no more no less.[/quote]Sure thing Ricardo, and I respect the fact that you''re just giving an opinion. What I would say is that if he comes back into the side and we see the pre-ankle injury Ruddy in goal I would certainly have to agree that he is the better option. But if we see the JR we have for a couple of seasons now I don''t think there is all that much to choose between MM and JR. And although he had a howler yesterday, I think MGovern has earned the opportunity, with a string of decent performances, to put that abject performance right against Leeds.Of course though I don''t pick the side and Neil may feel that after MM''s performance yesterday, that Ruddy deserves to return as number 1. A position he only lost through injury.