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TheMarshmallowMan

This is what "keeping the faith" has brought us to

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A team of no consistency; a team which, with it''s second string played is being totally thrashed by a team that a season ago were two leagues below us; a team that probably cost less to bring together than we had offered for Dean Ashton.

Worthington is the cause! Why can''t people see that?

We continue to play long ball at Dean Ashton. We continue to spurn chance after chance. We continue to have injury after injury. We continue to play with no consistency, playing well one week, making the most basic of mistakes another. We continue to tinker with formation and players - mostly because we can''t keep a fit first eleven! We continue to make the most basic defensive errors.

By blindly supporting the numpty, we have given him the free reign to continue his way. Without fan pressure, he continues with his endevours which he can''t seem to see aren''t working. We''ve turned a £6-10Mil striker in Deano into a player who seems less effective than a pile of use nappies. We''ve got no confidence across the board.

What can we do? We can hardly change our entire team or magic our injuries away. The only thing we can do - and we all know it - sack Worthy.

Worthy out! 

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[quote]You sir, are very very boring. Cya![/quote]

And you - like so many of the people on this board who have supported Worthington for so long - are one of the main reasons why this football club suffers.

 

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[quote]And you - like so many of the people on this board who have supported Worthington for so long - are one of the main reasons why this football club suffers.[/quote]

So by supporting worthy it is our fault don''t talk pants.

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[quote]So by supporting worthy it is our fault don''t talk pants.[/quote]

No, it''s by refusing to accept the criticisms against him and blindly saying "keep the faith" that we are to blame.

We aren''t defending well and we''re not attacking well; what more do we need to not be doing before we criticise the manager?

Let''s all wake up and smell the roses!

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Andrew Nickerson - writes well though out post about tonights poor game

Herb and Barclayendboy - make pointless posts just because they don''t agree with original posters points.

Come on lads, lets hear your arguments for keeping Worthington rather than the same rubbish the you produce. Do you really think that tonights performance was acceptable. Another in a long line of poor performances due to a poor manager.

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Andrew Nickerson only ever posts negative posts about Worthington. Check his previous, its the only reason he visits this messageboard.

My "boring" response was a comment on that.

There were plenty of existing threads he could have vented his spleen in.

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Indeed rasputin, its rubbish responses like those that threaten this forum as I have maintained in a separate thread. Andrew N makes some valid points which are supported by the stuff we see on the pitch, it would be nice if those arguing against his views could be bothered to explain why they think he is mistaken.

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[quote]Andrew Nickerson only ever posts negative posts about Worthington. Check his previous, its the only reason he visits this messageboard. My "boring" response was a comment on that. There were plenty...[/quote]

Give me one positive thing to say, and I''ll say it;

Oh! Here''s one. Jarvis and Hendo sounds as if they played well. Whoopppeee!

Wake up, Herb! We just lost 4-2!

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[quote]Andrew Nickerson only ever posts negative posts about Worthington. Check his previous, its the only reason he visits this messageboard. My "boring" response was a comment on that. There were plenty...[/quote]

Come on now Herb - you can do better than that.  All day I have been asking for people to explain why they are sitting in the camp they are. Your 1 line replys are the more boring part as they simply hide any chance of a debate on the issues - or dont you think there are any issues?

Andrew N (lincs to his mates) has explained why he feels frustrated and who with.  I like to see that passion and to read his thoughts which have been well communicated.   I see nothing boring in that. 

I will respect your comments far more if you can justify why you will blindly follow the team despite yet another embarrassment.  Is you passion so lacking that you cant communicate why you feel the way you do?  I dont think you are that apathetic but this how your posts come across.  Please take some time and share with us some thoughts rather that poor one liners..

My view of tonite is that as much as we were not world beaters for scraping wins against hull and brighton we are also not relegation fodder following a defeat - however heavy - against Luton. This result is not a sacking issue.  All through these peaks and troughs my message has been clear - the style of play, tactics, formations, team selections and midfield are not good enough for us to progress in this league.  Only one person is responsible for that, the manager. 

I ask not whether he should be sacked but what is he doing to rectify these mistakes - when will he sign some class in midfield, when will he try some youngsters without his back being to the wall, when will he beef up the numbers in midfield?  The midfield crisis was hardly a shock - it was entirely predictable and I have been saying so for nearly 3 months now.  If I can see that risk why couldnt the team manager? 

What are the board doing to manage worthy - have they set targets for progres sthrough the next few games - any other person is managed that way - I hope the same is the case here.

Following 15 months of mistakes the question that needs answering is when is Nigel Worthington going to laern from them?  If he remains of the view he is doing everything right, or does not know how to improve things then he is not the right man to lead NCFC now.  If he knows how to put it right and can persuade his bosses that he can do so in no more than 7 games then he will be given that chance.   

Charlie and Hughes in midfield - am I the only one who recalled how poor the midfield was against Coventry?

OTBC

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So zipper who would you have stuck in midfield tonight because from where i am sitting there is not a lot of options jarrett is hopless and no better than charlton and with marney and safri out injured we are stuffed.

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[quote]And you - like so many of the people on this board who have supported Worthington for so long - are one of the main reasons why this football club suffers.[/quote]

Oh bugger, it''s all our fault.

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[quote]A team of no consistency; a team which, with it''s second string played is being totally thrashed by a team that a season ago were two leagues below us; a team that probably cost less to bring together...[/quote]

In your opinion.  Don''t state it as fact.  You are perfectly entitled to your opinion as am I.  I think that blaming Worthy is a simplistic, lazy, blame culture attitude, but who says either of us is right.  At the moment I just think we are going through a difficult spell - it happens.  Worthy is an honest manager that wants us to win, as are the players. 

Isn''t it funny how everyone has the answers - bring in McVeigh, he will solve the crisis - I didn''t go tonight, but by all accounts he was poor.  Get rid of Flemmo, he is rubbish - again, didn''t sound like our defence was too good tonight.  Change the formation - OK, did that solve it, no it didn''t.

It''s so easy to criticise and call for change.  What is difficult is to stick with it when times are hard.  What is easy, is to enjoy any chance to have a go when things are going against. 

I will be there on Saturday cheering just as hard as I ever have.  If we lose then it won''t necessarily be anyone''s fault, just as if we win it won''t necessarily be anyone at QPR''s fault.

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Sorry to say worthington had all last season to learn.. while losing to likes of chelski Arsenal ..and to put those lessons into practice this season against the likes of Reading, Luton Hull Coventry Crewe..etc.

And clearly it can be seen that this isn''t happening.. I wonder if the WBA fans were defending Megson like this last season, After he did exactly what worthington is hoping to do...  WBA board had the bottle to change skipper and it paid off ..we didn''t and look at us now, looking squarely at the trap door.

And don''t say we can''t be relegated.. Man City..Sheff Wed.. Bradford Swindon and Notts Forest fans all thought that..

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Hold on Barclayendboy - why dont you tell me, for a change, what you would have done?  I want more than 1 line response so I can understand your point of view.  

Anyone who knows my views would be able to write my response to this for you - but I have not got the foggiest what your or herb would do faced withi this situation. 

Are you entirely happy with everything that there is not one thing you would not have started with differently last night??  A one line put down would not have helped anyone...

Of the available resources I would have deployed them better.  The starting line up was right on 10 counts but JJ in place of SC was obvious.  SC bless him is not a central midfielder - simply does not have the pace for it.  

But the majority of problems are bigger than just changing JJ/SC.  The fact that there are no options in midfield and had to play a less than fully fit Hughes was entirely foreseeable at the start of the season.  

We need a squad of more than 4 midfielders to compete in this league.  Worthy CHOSE to go into the league with 4 - and with 3 who really are not good enough.  Hughes is Holt without the ability, JJ  a skinny Mullers and Marney Bentley without the ability. Last nights defeat was the direct result of a lack of foresight and planning on Worthys part.  If I had been that professionally negligent, but trying to copmplete as task with such a clear and present risk, I would be dismissed.   

We persist inplaying Hux on the left without any structure on how to cover the acres of space left behind him - exposing Brennan last night.

The quality of play remains poor.  We revert too quickly to a find aashton or hux with a long ball rather than develop play through other good attackers.  WLY will not have the influence on a game he can if he is having to try and win headers - we all know he is 5 foot 7 or whatever - dont the coaches realise he is best when the ball is passed to his feet???

Worthy fails to address the issues during the passage of play.  We arelosing tyeh game in midfield and putting the defence under pressure.  The quality of ball from midfield to attack is poor.  yet the one player described as ineffective was WLY who received no service at all up front - nice to see he remains scapegoat number 1.  What about changing the middle of the park - 85 minute is not good enough!

Can you repond with more than a 1 line insult?

OTBC

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[quote]In your opinion. Don''t state it as fact. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion as am I. I think that blaming Worthy is a simplistic, lazy, blame culture attitude, but who says either of us is ...[/quote]

That''s a ridiculous attitude to have, Dicky.

According to you, Everton fans shouldn''t complain just because we live in a "simplistic, lazy, blame culture attitude". According to you, England fans shouldn''t complain just because we live in a  "simplistic, lazy, blame culture attitude". According to you, how we are doing - drawing 1-1 with a 10 man Millwall at home, conceeding 4 goals in 45 minutes at Luton, only seeming to be able to get our players out of bed for 45 minutes - is okay because "simplistic, lazy, blame culture attitude".

Except, apart from this ridiculous attitude, you don''t actually state why we should not criticise the boss, when there is obviously so much fundamentally wrong.

I''m not saying to stop supporting the team; whatever eleven players dressed in yellow and green take to the field of play I''d quite happily support and sing my heart out for - you seem to be confused in that regard. What I am asking is when will people like you - who blindly refuse to criticise the manager, despite the fundamental flaws this team has born since the beginning of last season, not just this (ie playing for 45 minutes) - actually start to realise that these fundamental flaws ultimately must lie with Nigel Worthington, and thus deserves the criticism he so justly deserves.

Dicky, a team like Norwich - with a squad as we have - should not have its supporters saying "if we lose to QPR, it won''t necessarily be anyone''s fault". We should be asking if we lose, "Why did we lose?" and I believe all the answers will come back to one man - Nigel Worthington.

As I said, Dicky, it''s fans like you - saying when we lose "It''s not anyone''s fault", instead of crticising, that have allowed the manager free reign to continue with his obviously flawed ways.  

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Fair points zipper yes the midfield is poor at the moment but who is out there that a club like norwich can attract hughes was supposed to have been highly rated by most Reading fans and to be fair i have seen a lot worse than hughes pull on a norwich shirt.Paul Juwell thought enough of Jarrett to offer him a new contract but he has been hampered by injurys and loss of form . I remember most people on this forum jumping up and down with the prospect of Marney coming here for a year and by all accounts has been very dissapointing and Safri our best midfielder by a mile has a nasty habit of picking up injurys far to often ,i think we all now realise how good Francis was and took him for granted.With players losing form and picking up injurys sometimes the manager can''t do a lot about that .

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Can someone please explain to Dicky what the term "debate" means.
 
barclayendboy - thanks for taking the time to add some reasoned debate to this thread.
 
What the Worthy Out brigade are saying is that the time is drawing near when the club has to make a decision on his future.   Do we want to keep accepting second best, average performance - which to be frank has been ongoing for a season and a half now, or do we take a leap of faith and appoint a new, motivated manager?
 
What we can''t do - sorry Dicky - is just keep turning up to matches on the basis that you win some, you lose some...if that were the case I''d be supporting Cromer Town (no insult intended).   I''m in it to see City do well, not be an average team.   I maybe a lazy feckless supporter who wants to get rid of the manager but I''ll damn well be a City fan until the day I die!!!

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Re Kennyfoggs''s points. All fair enough, but I could argue the other way too:

"Sorry to say worthington had all last season to learn.. while losing to likes of chelski Arsenal ..and to put those lessons into practice this season against the likes of Reading, Luton Hull Coventry Crewe..etc."

Learn what? Learn that Safri and Francis were our best midfielders? I think he knows/knew that... but how does that help now?


"And clearly it can be seen that this isn''t happening.. I wonder if the WBA fans were defending Megson like this last season, After he did exactly what worthington is hoping to do... WBA board had the bottle to change skipper and it paid off ..we didn''t and look at us now, looking squarely at the trap door."

True, but that was after giving him the chance to take the team back up, and not doing any better the second time around. And now Robson isn''t doing much better either.


"And don''t say we can''t be relegated.. Man City..Sheff Wed.. Bradford Swindon and Notts Forest fans all thought that."

Again true, but I could counter that endless clubs have changed manager to no positive effect. Nothing is guaranteed. If it were, others would be doing it too.


You''re right on all counts, but there is always another side to the story.

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I find it amazing that anyone should believe that someone other than Worthy is to blame for the current situation.

As Zipper says, Worthy has consistently failed to learn from his mistakes. There has been a consistent pattern of failure not just this season, but even in our promotion year. It is Worthy''s responsibility to work out what is going wrong and to fix them.

What is disappointing is that Worthy does not even seem to think there is much of a problem. Blaming injuries, the crossbar, energy levels, missed pens, a goalkeeping error, first half no shows, isn''t enough.

Its like Tiger Woods saying "Well I didn''t hole the putt because it was too fast and in the wrong direction, but other than that it was a superb shot". 

Worthy needs to work out:

Why aren''t we playing in the first half?

Why are we suffering so many training ground injuries

Why is the passing at times woeful

Why do our players lack confidence

Why does the defence have no idea how to defend

Why can''t we mark or close down the opposition properly?

Why do we have no coherent strategy or formation

Why are some players popped in and out of the team at will?

Why are some played out of position?

Why are no youth players given a proper chance?

and I could go on.

So many questions and yet NO evidence that any of these are being fixed. The same problems time after time after time after time. And then again.

Worthy is the manager. He is accountable- he directs the coaching, selects the team ,chooses the formation and gives the team talk. There is no one else to whom this falls even though aspects might be delegated (in which case Worthy is accountable for those individuals too if they are not doing their job properly).

If its not Worthy, then just who on earth is responsible? Lord Lucan?

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What worries me is that even now worthy seems to be looking in the wrong direction.   The media is full of pointing fingers at WLY in particular and the attackers and defence as a whole yet every other report or eye witness accounts lays the blame square at the midfield - the one area that Worthy choses not to criticise.

Like anything until you can identify your weaknesses you cannot learn what how to put it right. 

What has he not learnt Amarillo?

  • threcognising the need for footballing ability as well as energy
  • that he IS to blame for what goes on on the pitch 
  • that players have a best position and should be played there
  • what some players best position is
  • identified a formation that suits his squad
  • to drop favoured players when their form goes
  • consitently having a fall guy to take the blame
  • that having just 4 midfielders in a squad is not enough to last 50 games a season
  • what youth can bring to a side
  • how to improve a players footballing skills while with the club
  • an ability to assess what is happening on a pitch real time, and respond accordingly
  • the importance of pace in midfield
  • the role of leadership, not captaincy, within a team
  • how to train a team without causing a succession of injuries
  • that any individual voicing a contrary opinion is not automatically wrong.

This is not an exhaustive list but all have been present for 3+ years and with Adams ascertion that some of the dressing room has been lost is why I now feel the club needs a new leadership.

 

OTBC

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True Robson isn''t doing any better .. but would we have rather stayed up in their place.

on the 18th Oct 2003   WBA were laying in 2nd place on 28 points

while today we sit on 16  so I think on that reflection megson was doing his job

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[quote]It''s me that has caused the problem? Hmmmmm[/quote]

Another one liner. Is this possibly because you know A.N. is infact correct in what he says? Come on Dicky, lets hear to make a real comment, well thought out and shows exactly what you feel. Not just a one line reply that really makes you look a bit of a fool.

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[quote]Fair points zipper yes the midfield is poor at the moment but who is out there that a club like norwich can attract hughes was supposed to have been highly rated by most Reading fans and to be fair i ...[/quote]

Thanks BEB - appreciate your views being shared.

As far as midfield was concerned I was one of the few less than excited by Marney and would have liked us to go for the likes of Ifill and Idiakez to go alongside Safri - with Hughes being perfect cover for when Safri was injured.  Both were realistic targets for us - but that is water under the bridge now.

 

OTBC

  

 

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[quote]Come on now Herb - you can do better than that. All day I have been asking for people to explain why they are sitting in the camp they are. Your 1 line replys are the more boring part as they simply ...[/quote]

Ok, fair points. My response to Andrew''s original post was made just as the full impact of last night''s horror show was beginning to sink in.
Saw his post, thought "oh here we go again" and fired off a pretty pointless post. For that I apologise Andrew.

But laying on the old "Its your fault hes still here etc" routine is a bit much.
I want this club to see success as much as anyone here, but I''m also nervous about going down the route of sacking the manager every few months.
What happens if we get a replacement in at this stage of the season (well salvageable in my opinion) and he finishes mid table? Sack him and get another? Where would it end, and more importantly where would the money for players come from if we''re paying off a mangager every year or 2?

All that said, if the players aren''t behind him then every day hes here is another day wasted for Norwich City. I haven''t heard anything which leads me to believe thats the case though.

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[quote]Ok, fair points. My response to Andrew''s original post was made just as the full impact of last night''s horror show was beginning to sink in. Saw his post, thought "oh here we go again" and fired off ...[/quote]

Be realistic Herb no player is going to say that they are not happy with the way Worthy runs things, unless of course they want to be dropped or put on the transfer list.

My own personal opinion is that the players don''t look as though they have much confidence, or are even enjoying their football at the moment.

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[quote]Ok, fair points. My response to Andrew''s original post was made just as the full impact of last night''s horror show was beginning to sink in. Saw his post, thought "oh here we go again" and fired off ...[/quote]

Thanks for the apology Herb, much appreciated.

I''m not saying it''s our fault he''s still here, but I do think it''s our fault in being so reserved with our criticism he isn''t under greater pressure. Worthington and the board should know the fans aren''t happy with what''s going on so far, but because of our reserved nature in giving our opinions, I don''t think they realise just how unhappy we are.

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