Carrot & Stick

[morty 0]

Maybe this thread is more "stick" than "carrot".

[westcoastcanary 0]

[quote user="morty"]Maybe this thread is more "stick" than "carrot".[/quote]I''d say the carrot is being dangled in front of, and the stick used on the behind of, a hobbyhorse [:D]

[......and Smith must score. 1,342]

Most managers get wound up by their team. I doubt the players can even hear the boss screaming anyway and if they do they pretend they can''tOf the (reasonably) successful recent managers Van Gaal didn''t seem to even want to stand up let alone speak and was mainly content to sit there clutching his comfort blanket clipboard.Way back in the day the ultimate '' King of Cool '' had to be the suave Alf Ramsey who didn''t even want to come on the pitch when England won the World Cup, but nearly all managers then seemed content not to burst blood vessels on the touchline.

[Ray 111]

Call it what you will Westcoast, but it is something I am very passionate about and well versed in.

Cheers

[Barbe bleu 823]

I cannot think of a single coach in world Rugby that thinks it is better to rant on the touchline than sit behind a bank of computers looking for the marginal gains

Not meant to be a leadung quedtion but is there a lesson to be learnt there or is football a unique sport where passion always trumps analysis?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Barbe bleu"]I cannot think of a single coach in world Rugby that thinks it is better to rant on the touchline than sit behind a bank of computers looking for the marginal gains

Not meant to be a leadung quedtion but is there a lesson to be learnt there or is football a unique sport where passion always trumps analysis?[/quote]Perhaps passion is why football is almost universally played and popular in the world - and rugby, a bit like cricket, is a marginal sport played by relatively few nations.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

Probably more to do with the limited nature of the actions & interactions for rugby players in the various positions, compared to the speed, complexity & sheer unpredictability which makes football so much better as a sport.

[morty 0]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countriesThat rugby thing seems to be pretty popular...

[lake district canary 4,531]

Estimates on people playing rugby and football in the world - Rugby - 4,504,188Football - c.265,000,000

[chicken 0]

Personally, as a player at amateur level, sometimes those on the side lines can see things happening that you can''t.

I don''t mind input from the manager on the side as long as it is constructive, clear and not berating.

I have played under both styles and I would say they both have their pro''s and cons.

For example, sometimes it can be a lonely place on that pitch and your managers voice can pick you up and keep you going, much like a captain''s or another vocal player''s voice can. Also, at times when a team may be panicking a little, or unsettled for whatever reason that voice again can steady the ship. Plus, if the manager wants to make changes in tactics, personally, whispers or pieces of paper are a complete waste of time and can take too long to implement.

At the same time, sometimes you just need an arm around your shoulder - some reassurance when you are doubting yourself. Or in some cases just left to get on.

Either way - I disagree that there is a right way or a wrong way in terms of approach. With the manager it has to be about the right way with the team in front of you. Perhaps like Lambert was able to succeed with us but hasn''t seen the same level of success elsewhere.

I think the best managers do both. They recognise the time to be vocal and the time to be less animated. Koeman, Wenger etc, all seem to be able to do this.

[Barbe bleu 823]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Estimates on people playing rugby and football in the world - Rugby - 4,504,188Football - c.265,000,000

[/quote]

I''m not entirely sure what the number of players has to do with it except perhaps it''s 13 or 15 as opposed to 11.

I actually think the two games are very similar, both are in no small part about maintaining your team''s shape whilst trying to upset the opponent''s in order to exploit the space or inbalance created.

In rugby managers choose to sit with good views of the pitch and with data on hand in order to understand patterns of play and to plan how to control the shape of both teams. In football a management system of whistles, grunts and arcane hand signals seems to be preferrred.

Football management often seems to have more in common with one man and his dog than other team sports.

I suspect that as often as not the touchline antics are about showing ''passion'' to the fans and letting off steam as trying to actually do anything constructive.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,161]

Wasn''t there some bloke called Sir Alex Ferguson once who had a modicum of success as a manager.............

It''s all a bit hazy now, but I''m sure he used to get a little animated on the touchlines sometimes...............

[westcoastcanary 0]

[quote user="Ray"]Call it what you will Westcoast, but it is something I am very passionate about and well versed in.

Cheers[/quote]No-one questioning that Ray, but I''d suggest we''ve all by now a good handle on your views on this particular subject. To borrow from a well-known comment on Wittgenstein''s Tractatus, "whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent, and it shouldn''t be whistled either" [;)] [:D]

[rock bus 851]

Ironically, it''s the things I like about Alex Neil which make me concerned that he MIGHT not be up for it.

In interviews he is frank and honest, seems like a genuine guy who really cares. On match days he is passionate and angry and seems to get p''d off during the game at players and screams and shouts...pretty much like I do!

All the above is great and shows passion and commitment just like a fan. BUT is this what we need from a manager though?? There are times when he must rise above the behaviour of ''normal'' football fans and be able to show a level of composure and detachment.

It may sound odd, but my concern is that perhaps sometimes Alex does need to ''step away'' and see the game from a different angle and not the touch line with a red mist. This may have been demonstrated in his first game when he was actually watching in the stands and then came down after a sending off to change the games with his substitutions. Might be significant that he hasn''t made the same kind of quality tactical change and subs that often since.

NB none of the above means I don''t want him as manager or think he can still develop into a great one.. it may just take some time

[Ray 111]

Westcoast,

If but your first line was so, my job here would then be done.

However, it could also be argued that we''ve all ''a good handle'' on the views of everyone on this board, this however does not stop or prohibit its existence or organic growth.

Talking of organic growth, if I recall Wittgenstein underwent a similar process ultimately producing his work Philosophical Investigations, in which he critiques his original works, so from this we can perhaps draw on the understanding that what goes around comes around and I promise you that until the day I decide not to, or that day is preceded by my demise, I shall go around, and around, and around as the proverbial spinning top.

[hogesar 9,658]

Lot''s of successful managers are very animated on the touchline.

Lot''s of successful managers are very quiet and calm on the touchline.

Lot''s of failed managers are very animated on the touchline.

Lot''s of failed managers are very quiet and calm on the touchline.

It''s horses for courses really - and it''s not like this is anything new. AN was the same when we were promoted from the Championship - wasn''t even mentioned in a negative light then. 

With a group of primarily seasoned championship / premiership pro''s - the consistent kick up the backside is potentially needed to stop them drifting into complacency.

[Ray 111]

Westcoast,

Rather than as the proverbial spinning top, as follows;

Round like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel

Never ending or beginning on an ever-spinning reel

Like a snowball down a mountain, or a carnival balloon

Like a carousel that''s turning running rings around the moon

Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes on its face

And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space

Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind

Like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel of its own

Down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shone

Like a door that keeps revolving in a half-forgotten dream

Like the ripples from a pebble someone tosses in a stream

Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes on its face

And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space

Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind

Keys that jingle in your pocket, words that jangle in your head

Why did summer go so quickly?

Was it something that you said?

Lovers walk along a shore and leave their footprints in the sand

Was the sound of distant drumming Just the fingers of your hand?

Pictures hanging in a hallway and the fragment of a song

Half-remembered names and faces, but to whom do they belong?

When you knew that it was over were you suddenly aware

That the autumn leaves were turning to the colour of her hair!

Like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel

Never ending or beginning on an ever-spinning reel

As the images unwind

Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind

[Ray 111]

rock bus,

Interesting point re watching from the stands, in fact when Hughton was here Calderwood spent every first 45 minutes in the stands with a telephonic link to the bench, a la rugby, then on the bench second half. I guess he still does this at Brighton. I think there are other managers who do this too.

Stepping away and looking in from outside may be a good thing, it would be interesting to hear what his comments would be after watching a play back of his own performance over 90 minutes, with sound of course.

[westcoastcanary 0]

Ah, windmills. Many remain in Norfolk to be tilted at by those inclined [:)]

[Ray 111]

Westcoast,

I''m afraid I''m no longer young (or fit) enough to take on the giants of yesteryear, imaginary or otherwise, unless of course you''re talking about the Windmill Theatre or indeed any pub called the Windmill, now that would be a different story !!

[westcoastcanary 0]

.[Y] [B] [B]

[Ray 111]

Thanks Westcoast,

Off to beautify myself for the game, and that takes a while!

OTBC