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Ray

Carrot & Stick

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Given the board seems quiet at the moment and what has been written today in the local media re the Murphys, I thought I would contribute the following to give us something to get our teeth into.

What follows is the closing two paragraphs of an article by Matthew Syed, Columnist of the Year, from the Times.

The headline to the column was “Why a manager’s touchline rantings could be doing more harm than good”.

“It is worth emphasising that there are many brilliant thinkers in football, but there is a lot of baggage too. I look forward to the day when coaches question whether it is a smart idea to constantly gesticulate from the bench, as if conducting an orchestra, requiring players to look over to interpret these ambiguous gestures, while trying to play one of the fastest moving games on the planet. I look forward to more coaches wielding findings in psychology to improve the leadership qualities of players and resilience to setbacks.

Above all, I look forward to a time when the majority in the game think of ‘evidence’ not as a threatening word bandied around by suspicious-looking outsiders, but as an ally in the quest to improve performance. It is innovation, not convention, that holds the key to success.”

In our case, our manager not only gesticulates but certainly rants (and whistles, and he does that particularly well).

I have written about this before but add now, that if players need constant (and I mean constant) screaming at/instructions then either he hasn’t done a very good job in training or they are not listening, so something could be improved.

Furthermore, a lot of what is screamed is not particularly positive, that said I fully accept that the carrot and stick method may be appropriate but the clue is in the phrase, carrot and stick.

Obviously I want to see us winning, I would like to see us winning in style and I would like us to have one of the best managers around and to that end I feel another phrase could rear its head, physician diagnose thyself, or at least listen to others’ diagnoses, take on board what is said, implement a plan to improve this aspect of your performance and go on to be the aforementioned best manager around.

Over to the rest of you on here.

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Ray, don''t know if you have read Matthew Syed''s book "bounce" imo that tells you all about his personality and why he would come out with statements like he has, no doubting he was a great table tennis player, but he is not from a team environ, hence statements like that, Just this weekend you only had to watch the likes of Guardiola and Conte to see at the top level the best managers are involved and on it.

Think you will find managers are reacting when players are not doing what was greed on the training pitch, or the shape of play is changing in front of them, and players so wrapped in the action haven''t worked it out for themselves.

Admittedly slightly different if he is referring to u12''s where the understanding is not there.

Must admit I prefer a manager to show, and not be anonymous during a game like Van Gaal or Hodgson.

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Syed was the most boring table-tennis player I''ve had the miss fortune to watch. I went to one of his coaching days once and the general consensus was that he was a man who loved the sound of his own voice too much.I find his writing to be a load of psycho babble most of the time. His ''practise over talent'' stuff is particularly irritating.

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Given the pressure and stresses and strains of being a manager and the talk or threat of instant dismissal if there is a run if even two or three bad results, I am quite happy for a manager to let off some steam on the touchline.   It''s a passionate game and if the manager is angry about what players are doing or not doing, then imo it''s quite ok for them to shout and scream.  If some of it is negative, that players can react aganst that and start producing.  If they can''t react to that, then perhaps they shouldn''t be out there.As for expecting or hoping players to think for themselves a bit more, all well and good, but as you said the game moves very quickly and at least by being on the touchline the manager is having an overview of the game and can try and influence the game. No one can be 100% positive all the time.  Some managers will be more encouraging than others, some more shouty than others. They are all different.  Managers take responsibility for the team in their charge so they have to be pasionate.  If players don''t like it (which seems to be where you are coming from), perhaps they should sort themselves out so he doesn''t have to shout at them so much.It''s either that or employ a robot. 

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I think AN is getting it right on the touchline, from what I can see. He certainly seems to be helping the younger players, going against what you''ve said Ray, judging by the fact that both Murphy''s performances have improved as this season has gone on.

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[quote user="TCCANARY"]Syed was the most boring table-tennis player I''ve had the miss fortune to watch.[/quote]You mean - people actually watch ping pong? [:O]

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="TCCANARY"]Syed was the most boring table-tennis player I''ve had the miss fortune to watch.[/quote]You mean - people actually watch ping pong? [:O][/quote]Some people spend whole days at tournaments watching and playing.

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[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]I used to hold my balls over a candle flame to try and get the dents out.[/quote]

We used to put ours in warm water and then suck the dents out.

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Mr Jenkins"]I used to hold my balls over a candle flame to try and get the dents out.[/quote]Whatever turns you on......

[/quote]

Goodness, gracious, that sounds something of ''Little Richard, Great Balls of Fire'' moment...

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It''s funny but I was thinking the same thing on Saturday he spends a large proportion of his time on the side lines moaning like a bitch.

Would be much more productive if he gave tactical advise and encouragement

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The alternative is to configure his iPad with the big screen so he can move it about and give instructions via it on a diagram form

It''s called digital football management . You heard it here first

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LDC,

You said the following in this thread;

“Well it''s something I''ve been commenting about for years. How a crowd being negative can affect players and imo it applies to all players, young or old. Now the manager has come out and said the same thing, perhaps the penny will drop. If the fans can be the difference by cheering and being positive, then the opposite is true too, that by getting on players backs and being negative, that can affect players too. It''s not difficult to understand.”

And you said the following on the Young Players thread;

“It''s a passionate game and if the manager is angry about what players are doing or not doing, then imo it''s quite ok for them to shout and scream. If some of it is negative, that players can react against that and start producing. If they can''t react to that, then perhaps they shouldn''t be out there.”

“No one can be 100% positive all the time. Some managers will be more encouraging than others, some more shouty than others. They are all different. Managers take responsibility for the team in their charge so they have to be passionate. If players don''t like it (which seems to be where you are coming from), perhaps they should sort themselves out so he doesn''t have to shout at them so much.”

LDC, I’m struggling to join the dots, that maybe my issue but it seems you are saying; Fans, please don’t be negative it could have a negative impact, but Manager, you can be negative cos the players should suck it up?

Could you elucidate? Thanks

I don''t agree with some of the other points on here, but at least we got a decent debate going, in particular young Josh, bossed it at MK Dons last year but was way off at the start of this season here, yep scored a great goal Saturday, so hopefully that will help boost his confidence to the levels he had at MK Dons.

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Ray.The manager is the authority figure and the players should pay attention to him - he knows which player needs encouraging and which ones need a kick up the backside - I would let him manage as he sees fit.   Fans are different - or should be imo - they are there to support - and in my mind that means cheering your team and giving as much out against the opposition team as possible.  That is the ideal scenario. If our own fans start barracking our own players on a regular basis without much reason, young or old, what kind of help is that? 

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LDC,

No major disagreement with much of that, however one word in your first sentence is key, "should" and there imo lies the issue, if a manager is constantly in the ear of players it becomes counterproductive insomuch as they become frightened to do anything for the fear of a bo!!ocking or they shut it out, hence why he may have to whistle so loudly, which as previously stated, he does well, to get any form of attention from the players.

Of course I fully expect the manager to be involved, it''s just the level of involvement and the nature of it which I feel is the issue, as you say, "If our fans start barracking our own players on a regular basis without much reason, young or old, what kind of help is that?" Surely the same applies to managers/coaches?

BTW, I do let him manage as he sees fit, as yet I haven''t rushed to the touchline to intervene, although at times I feel like asking him to be quiet for a few seconds, besides anything else it don''t ''arf get on my t*ts, well I choose to allow it to I guess, I could change my seat I won''t be though, so best I suck it up then! I do however feel I can comment on what I see and hear, on the pitch and in the dugout, as can we all of course.

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The ''hints'' in Football Manager 16 warn against making too many touch line interventions as it will confuse the players. Obviously true in real life too 😉

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[quote user="Mr Angry"]The ''hints'' in Football Manager 16 warn against making too many touch line interventions as it will confuse the players. Obviously true in real life too 😉[/quote]

It''s the same in Subbuteo. My brother used to get so angry with his players that he bit the head off one, not metaphorically, he actually bit the players head off. Imagine if AN did that!

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Serious question Ray. How long have you had your present seat? If you''ve been there for a while how do you think Alex Neil''s touchline demeanour compares to Chris Hughton''s and Paul Lambert''s?

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Does anyone really think that having managers on the touchline throughout the game has really improved things? If I had my way they would be confined to the stand, with only the physios pitch side. Teams would then need a genuine leader on the pitch and the value of players with intelligence would rise relative to physical attributes and skill.

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Thirsty,

They''re all different, however AN is more animated, shows more disappointment and shouts out instruction that shouldn''t be needed, a simple example being, every time we come out of defence he''s screaming at them to get up. To be frank, if they don''t know that and cannot take personal responsibility to do so they shouldn''t be there or something is wrong at Colney.

His demeanour appears to be one of an angry young man, OK he is young and maybe he has a right to be angry, but from where I am coming from it''s all too much and probably having a negative effect, especially on some of the younger players. This attitude can, and may have already been, copied by some of the players (Naismith on young Jo Murphy) for example?

I want him to be one of the best but I imo he has a bit to learn to get the best out of players, but as I often say, what do I know?

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To be fair the entire Barclay was shouting at the players to get up the pitch, in the last ten minutes on Saturday.

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I still remember a comic called Shoot! (or was it Score!) from the 1970s (Billy''s Boots and similar classics) and in one issue the manager developed a code where he would flag instructions to the players using a rolled-up programme in a sort of semaphore.  It went horribly wrong when he started gesticulating wildly at a crucial moment and distracted the centre-back, letting the opposition score.  The manager spent the rest of the game with his arms firmly folded (and no programme in sight) to avoid a repeat.

 

Well ahead of its time, that was.

 

I''m sure I remember a football memoir where a player said he never paid any attention to what the manager was shouting.

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[quote user="Ray"]Thirsty,

They''re all different, however AN is more animated, shows more disappointment and shouts out instruction that shouldn''t be needed, a simple example being, every time we come out of defence he''s screaming at them to get up. To be frank, if they don''t know that and cannot take personal responsibility to do so they shouldn''t be there or something is wrong at Colney.  [/quote]
When Chelsea played West Ham earlier in the season, Conte spent almost the entirety of the first half screaming at his players to push up the pitch. Does that mean something is going wrong at Chelsea?

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