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OT - Tony Blair straw poll

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No, but even so...
[img]http://d3lgc28rsiigal.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Tony-Blair-sitting-in-the-dock-of-the-hague.jpg?551fb8[/img]

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[quote user="Yellow Messiah"]Nho - lying and making a wrong decision based on misinformation are completely different things.[/quote]

How about painting up said information to suit your own agenda, and even then ignoring the will of a large proportion of the population who still didn''t want to go to war .

Breathtaking arrogance at best at worst a war criminal.

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[quote user="im spartacus"][quote user="Yellow Messiah"]Nho - lying and making a wrong decision based on misinformation are completely different things.[/quote]

How about painting up said information to suit your own agenda, and even then ignoring the will of a large proportion of the population who still didn''t want to go to war .

Breathtaking arrogance at best at worst a war criminal.[/quote]What was his agenda?So you don''t think that we elect politicians to make big decisions for us?Should we have a public referendum for literally everything?

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He made a catastrophic - and childish - error of judgment. He believe the guff about some kind of special relationship with the US. He actually thought he could influence US policy not just over the war but the Middle East generally. He was wrong. The US acted just as it suited it. Blair was what the Bolsheviks called a ''useful idiot''.

A timely lesson for those who think that leaving the EU will be compensated for by the US stepping up to the plate to help us out.

The soppy references to the special relationship will keep on coming, but as far as the real world of trade goes its focus is on Asia, and the deal with the EU. When Obama and other senior officials said the UK would go to the back of the queue they meant it.

Any number of soppy references by US politicians to the

The Bolsheviks called a ''useful idiot''

.

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Morty

Going to war and destabilising the world isn''t like extending licensing hours or putting up the price of a pint at the budget

Unless what I have been watching on the news for the last hour is a complete fabrication the bloke irresponsibly pressed on and was determined to get into a war. He should be heading to the Hague in handcuffs. That is my opinion.

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[quote user="im spartacus"]Morty

Going to war and destabilising the world isn''t like extending licensing hours or putting up the price of a pint at the budget

Unless what I have been watching on the news for the last hour is a complete fabrication the bloke irresponsibly pressed on and was determined to get into a war. He should be heading to the Hague in handcuffs. That is my opinion.[/quote]So you think he just said "feck it, lets do this, it''ll be a laugh"And somehow brainwashed all the other MP''s who voted on it? Oh and the rest of NATO too?All very easy after the fact, isn''t it?The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?

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"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.

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[quote user="Herman "]"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.[/quote]Only military we had Herman.What if he ignored the warnings about WMD''s though? About a country who had shown it was more than happy to deploy nerve gas?We could have been having a whole different inquiry.

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Absolutely Yes

He determined to support Bush "With you whatever" and then subverted Cabinet and Parliament deliberately exaggerating the case for war

400,00 Iraqis are dead several thousand soldiers and

the whole region completely destablised.

Are the people saying No the same wankers who thought

Liverpool fans caused Hillsborough and voted for Brexit

I think they may be...

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "]"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.[/quote]Only military we had Herman.What if he ignored the warnings about WMD''s though? About a country who had shown it was more than happy to deploy nerve gas?We could have been having a whole different inquiry.[/quote]That''s not what I meant. If you send people out to war and the dangers of war then you make damn well sure that they have the proper equipment, instead of having to beg, borrow or steal things like boots, body armour etc.

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[quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "]"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.[/quote]Only military we had Herman.What if he ignored the warnings about WMD''s though? About a country who had shown it was more than happy to deploy nerve gas?We could have been having a whole different inquiry.[/quote]That''s not what I meant. If you send people out to war and the dangers of war then you make damn well sure that they have the proper equipment, instead of having to beg, borrow or steal things like boots, body armour etc.[/quote]They really didn''t have to beg, borrow and steal boots Herman. There were issues, but deploying 46,000 troops at relatively short notice probably isn''t easy, and the whole thing was done in half the time it took for gulf war 1.The main thing we were deficient in were appropriate vehicles to deal with the roadside bomb threat. That was a mistake, but the threat was unknown, and probably underestimated. And they aren''t the kinda thing you just go and buy off the shelf. All falls into the lack of "what happens next" after we had achieved our primary objective.

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I don''t think it is necessarily right that Blair takes all the blame. I would hazard a guess that had a different PM been in place we still would have committed ourselves to the war, given that it was just 18 months after 9/11 and the intelligence (ultimately proved to be incorrect but not known at the time) that was available.

Where the problem lies is that there was no sensible plan for the massive void left by the overthrowing of Saddam and his army. This enabled the Shia''s and the Sunni''s to effectively start a civil war, encouraged by insurgents fighting on both sides. Retrospect and hindsight make it a lot easier to try to apportion blame but at the time it would have been difficult to hold back with the perceived threats. As I said to solely blame Blair is not right, soon answer to the question, no.

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As Ron says, if you think anyone else other than Blair would have made a different decision you are naive. You''d have to go out quite a long way on the political spectrum to the likes of Corbyn or Farage to be able to conceive of someone who would have said no to the US. And even then it''s debatable what they would have done.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "]"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.[/quote]Only military we had Herman.What if he ignored the warnings about WMD''s though? About a country who had shown it was more than happy to deploy nerve gas?We could have been having a whole different inquiry.[/quote]That''s not what I meant. If you send people out to war and the dangers of war then you make damn well sure that they have the proper equipment, instead of having to beg, borrow or steal things like boots, body armour etc.[/quote]They really didn''t have to beg, borrow and steal boots Herman. There were issues, but deploying 46,000 troops at relatively short notice probably isn''t easy, and the whole thing was done in half the time it took for gulf war 1.The main thing we were deficient in were appropriate vehicles to deal with the roadside bomb threat. That was a mistake, but the threat was unknown, and probably underestimated. And they aren''t the kinda thing you just go and buy off the shelf. All falls into the lack of "what happens next" after we had achieved our primary objective.[/quote]Maybe then we can stop pretending that we are a mighty, military power that can jump at short notice to any situation?Basically the military was over stretched, under prepared, rushed and let down by those who organised the whole thing.

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And if you''re looking for someone to blame for the poor state of army equipment during the war, you need to look more closely at the army itself - the state of their procurement and the advice of generals to government that they were ready and willing to fight.

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[quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "]"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.[/quote]Only military we had Herman.What if he ignored the warnings about WMD''s though? About a country who had shown it was more than happy to deploy nerve gas?We could have been having a whole different inquiry.[/quote]That''s not what I meant. If you send people out to war and the dangers of war then you make damn well sure that they have the proper equipment, instead of having to beg, borrow or steal things like boots, body armour etc.[/quote]They really didn''t have to beg, borrow and steal boots Herman. There were issues, but deploying 46,000 troops at relatively short notice probably isn''t easy, and the whole thing was done in half the time it took for gulf war 1.The main thing we were deficient in were appropriate vehicles to deal with the roadside bomb threat. That was a mistake, but the threat was unknown, and probably underestimated. And they aren''t the kinda thing you just go and buy off the shelf. All falls into the lack of "what happens next" after we had achieved our primary objective.[/quote]Maybe then we can stop pretending that we are a mighty, military power that can jump at short notice to any situation?Basically the military was over stretched, under prepared, rushed and let down by those who organised the whole thing.[/quote]

There was someone on the radio this morning saying that the problem was that we had moved from carrying enough ordinance to a ''just in time'' model of delivery, unfortunately, despite the fact Blair had in fact committed to sending troops months before, they couldn''t place the orders until it had been agreed by parliament as that would have shown the truth of the matter. This meant that when we went over there we didn''t have sufficient supplies, including bullets! They had to borrow body army plates from American soldiers and even had mismatched uniforms because they didn''t have enough of the desert kit for everyone that was sent over there. He said it was awful for morale and a sad state for a once proud military to be reduced to ''those badly dressed bu99ers at the back''. So yes Morty, the long term issue was especially with vehicular procurement (suitable helicopters were also an issue as well as the poorly suited ground vehicles) but there was a huge problem at time of deployment due to the cost cutting that the army had already had to go through.

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Oh, and for the record, I''m not sure about war crimes and the Hague but he led us into an illegal war based on fallacies to support a fait acompli. With no exit plan and the damage it has done the region and our own security (Which he was warned about before hand!) certainly means that we as a nation deserve something more than the joke of an apology he gave today.

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[quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "]"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.[/quote]Only military we had Herman.What if he ignored the warnings about WMD''s though? About a country who had shown it was more than happy to deploy nerve gas?We could have been having a whole different inquiry.[/quote]That''s not what I meant. If you send people out to war and the dangers of war then you make damn well sure that they have the proper equipment, instead of having to beg, borrow or steal things like boots, body armour etc.[/quote]They really didn''t have to beg, borrow and steal boots Herman. There were issues, but deploying 46,000 troops at relatively short notice probably isn''t easy, and the whole thing was done in half the time it took for gulf war 1.The main thing we were deficient in were appropriate vehicles to deal with the roadside bomb threat. That was a mistake, but the threat was unknown, and probably underestimated. And they aren''t the kinda thing you just go and buy off the shelf. All falls into the lack of "what happens next" after we had achieved our primary objective.[/quote]Maybe then we can stop pretending that we are a mighty, military power that can jump at short notice to any situation?Basically the military was over stretched, under prepared, rushed and let down by those who organised the whole thing.[/quote]Wars rarely happen at a time thats convenient for you.And theres never enough money in military budgets. Maybe we should shut some hospitals or schools to make sure there is?Soldiers, sailers and airmen have always been sold short by governments, this is hardly new news.

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[quote user="cornish sam"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"][quote user="Herman "]"The biggest crime was the complete lack of exit plan, maybe he assumed the Americans had that covered?"Sending an under resourced and poorly armed military wasn''t too good either.[/quote]Only military we had Herman.What if he ignored the warnings about WMD''s though? About a country who had shown it was more than happy to deploy nerve gas?We could have been having a whole different inquiry.[/quote]That''s not what I meant. If you send people out to war and the dangers of war then you make damn well sure that they have the proper equipment, instead of having to beg, borrow or steal things like boots, body armour etc.[/quote]They really didn''t have to beg, borrow and steal boots Herman. There were issues, but deploying 46,000 troops at relatively short notice probably isn''t easy, and the whole thing was done in half the time it took for gulf war 1.The main thing we were deficient in were appropriate vehicles to deal with the roadside bomb threat. That was a mistake, but the threat was unknown, and probably underestimated. And they aren''t the kinda thing you just go and buy off the shelf. All falls into the lack of "what happens next" after we had achieved our primary objective.[/quote]Maybe then we can stop pretending that we are a mighty, military power that can jump at short notice to any situation?Basically the military was over stretched, under prepared, rushed and let down by those who organised the whole thing.[/quote]

There was someone on the radio this morning saying that the problem was that we had moved from carrying enough ordinance to a ''just in time'' model of delivery, unfortunately, despite the fact Blair had in fact committed to sending troops months before, they couldn''t place the orders until it had been agreed by parliament as that would have shown the truth of the matter. This meant that when we went over there we didn''t have sufficient supplies, including bullets! They had to borrow body army plates from American soldiers and even had mismatched uniforms because they didn''t have enough of the desert kit for everyone that was sent over there. He said it was awful for morale and a sad state for a once proud military to be reduced to ''those badly dressed bu99ers at the back''. So yes Morty, the long term issue was especially with vehicular procurement (suitable helicopters were also an issue as well as the poorly suited ground vehicles) but there was a huge problem at time of deployment due to the cost cutting that the army had already had to go through.[/quote]Having been in the military, trust me, badly fitting or missing uniform has long since been a running joke. I really people are trying to make too much of this frankly. If you think that our military has always been supplied with the very best of everything, you are mistaken. The ground vehicle thing was because our role there basically changed, and the fact it became so dangerous on the ground was the reason for the shortfall of support helicopters. Also trying to exit Iraq at the same time as moving into Afghanistan stretched people.

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As far as I understand it, and I may well be wrong, the military were fairly well equipped for what they were sent there to do - defeat the Iraqi military and topple the regime. However, that all changed when the mission became nation building.

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