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Dr Greenthumb

Today's game

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You either accidentally or deliberately seem to miss the point: both last season and the season before there were deals in place to make the loan moves permanent. Neithet were impressed enough to sign him,, clearly they considered (and I say it again) that he''d done nothing of note.

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I wouldn''t bother Branston some people don''t want to see that he just isn''t good enough. Who needs a striker that lacks a first touch, has no pace, is poor in the air, not a very good passer, disappears when the chips are down and doesn''t have the strength to hold onto the ball anyway. As for all this nonsense about him needing to be played in a two he was playing as a lone striker at sporting anyway. People are just desperate for him to succeed and the old Cody, Becchio, Lafferty, Ofoe syndrome is kicking in whereby because he''s not played for a while the ol memory has begun to fail and it gets forgotten as to how poor/ limited a player they actually are and all the faults then get blamed on various managers.

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There''s nothing I''d like more than RvW being a success, but there''s so little evidence to suggest it will happen. You''d have thought he''d be busting an absolute gut in preseason to show his worth, but he doesn''t seem to have done much. If it is right that he can only play under a certain system, one we don''t/won''t ever operate, getting shot of him becomes even more obvious.

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We saw enough in the first season (even that first game with what was it 9 touches?) to see he was never going to make it in English football. The game here is far quicker and has a much more physical element than he was used to in Holland and Portugal. Defenders realised that if you give him a little kick he will just drop deeper as he is scared to have the ball in case he gets kicked again. As soon as he dropped deeper all the other flaws in his game were exposed. How often did you see him drop back to link play (this usually meant him just quickly moving the ball to someone else in less space ) then just hang about near the half way line as the rest of the team attacked. I would offer that he also lacked the mentality of a poacher as every time he missed a good chance your saw his head drop and he just didn''t look interested again. All the best poachers would go again and again until they scored. It''s time to move on and look to the future as Ricky doesn''t have a part to play in ours. It will be best for us and for him just to get him off the books so we can stop the debate and allow him to try and rebuild his career in a league that suits his limited attributes.

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I only wanted to know where this particular game was streaming lol, poor Ricky. He''s not great, but would love him to prove us all wrong

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McCormack goes to Villa or Newcastle leaving Alex to fail land a striker for season start, Jerome gets crocked first mach or two, nobody comes in for RVW.  Few ifs there, but if that happened, then what? Good or bad, RVW would still be a City player, and if Alex played him, if he gave 100%, i would applaud his efforts, even if they were not earth shattering.Ive nothing to say about his performances in the last 2 or 3 seasons, thats been done to death,hes had more  debate than any other player coz of his signing on fee, which was nothing to do with him, but has been about the central point of every dang argument about him. I like Ricky to be honest, i think he has been a consumate professional all these seasons and always seemed to be as positive as can be despite mostly not coming up to scratch on the pitch. If he puts on the yellow he deserves our support, if he leaves i wish him well.

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if we dont sign a striker in the next week I would sincerely hope that in the last 2 friendlies we have vs Coventry and Hannover that if /when Jerome isnt on the pitch that it is Lafferty who gets the minutes on it to try and prove he still has a place here, even if its off the bench.

Every minute we''re giving this dud RVW in pre season is a wasted one that we could be giving someone else.

Cancel his contract and get rid.....

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[quote user="CanaryOne"]Season almost on us and we have not even shipped out the unwanted deadwood let alone actually improved the squad , season of struggle looming .[/quote]

we may not have improved the squad.....but the standard of opposition has considerably decreased....

if there were no more ins or outs I''d still expect a top 4 finish...

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[quote user="Dead Canary"]I wouldn''t bother Branston some people don''t want to see that he just isn''t good enough. Who needs a striker that lacks a first touch, has no pace, is poor in the air, not a very good passer, disappears when the chips are down and doesn''t have the strength to hold onto the ball anyway. As for all this nonsense about him needing to be played in a two he was playing as a lone striker at sporting anyway. People are just desperate for him to succeed and the old Cody, Becchio, Lafferty, Ofoe syndrome is kicking in whereby because he''s not played for a while the ol memory has begun to fail and it gets forgotten as to how poor/ limited a player they actually are and all the faults then get blamed on various managers.[/quote]

Amazing how he ever got near a football pitch then, let alonne score hat tricks in Europe and play for his country.

If only we had listened to your analysis before we signed him.

At least you are right about the memory problems

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Can''t say I ever saw him play before he joined us Curious I know he scored hat tricks in Europe but I''d take that with a pinch of salt as there is some dubious quality in the Europa league. I did however see enough of him in that one season to know he looked lost playing for us and reports of his loans since have done nothing to change that belief. He''ll be lucky to play in one of the major top flights again and once his contract is up am sure we''ll see him return to one of the smaller leagues where the quality isn''t as high.

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So based on what happened 2 years ago, ignoring what happened before and reports of what happened since.

And clubs in the Europa league are dodgy?

Not good enough then for the mighty championship.

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[quote user="Dead Canary"]Do you think anything he has done in the last three years suggests he has the qualities to make it in the championship?[/quote]Yes

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I''d be wrapping Jerome up in cotton wool, without a replacement before the hectic start to the season, if he gets injured we could be in a little bit of bother.

I can see a loan coming in very soon, could it be a three month Ings loan to get him match sharp after a long injury?

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Dead Canary"]Do you think anything he has done in the last three years suggests he has the qualities to make it in the championship?[/quote]Yes[/quote]Have to agree with Indy on this straight forward answer to a straight forward question...yes.

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[quote user="Dead Canary"]I wouldn''t bother Branston some people don''t want to see that he just isn''t good enough.[/quote]And some people can''t see what''s in front of their face (or refuse to accept they can see it) [quote]Who needs a striker that lacks a first touch[/quote]Everton and West Ham didn''t seem to mind having Lukaku and Sakho who both regularly have an apalling first touch, and RvW''s technique is easily better than both...[quote]has no pace[/quote]Neither do players like Giroud or Rickie Lambert, doesn''t stop them scoring plenty...[quote]is poor in the air[/quote]1) This is of primary importance for teams who are relying on crosses or knock downs from said player who is almost always a big unit, and as discussed ad nausuem - RvW ISN''T a target man!2) There''s jack all wrong with RvW''s heading, and let''s not forget that he won more in the air than Hooper did for us that season.2) Henry, Bergkamp, Defoe, Rooney, Van Persie etc have ALL scored less than 10% of their goals via headers, but who''d want crap players like them eh...?[quote]not a very good passer[/quote]Orly?I take it then that you were slating the likes of Wes, Redmond, Pilks, Snoddy, BJ, Olsson, E.Bennett and Elmander at the same time then, as they ALL had worse passing accuracy than RvW did for us in the 13/14 season.It was also better than Benteke, Jerome, Crouch, Ba, Fletcher, Lukaku, Torres, Altidore, Anichebe, Vydra, Giroud, Gayle, Lambert, Naismith, Chamakh, Campbell, Bent, Dzeko, Bony, Suarez, Berbatov, Agbonlahor, Eto''o, Soldado, Rodriguez, Borini, Negredo, Van Persie, Weimann, Puncheon, Cisse & SturridgeI guess they all can''t pass for $hit either???[quote]disappears when the chips are down[/quote]Not what I''ve seen, I''ve seen frustration, I''ve seen an overwhelming desire to perform and recover goalscoring form, I''ve seen professionalism and numerous other emotions, but he certainly didn''t hide, and what''s more - maybe if we''d given him decent supply, there would have been no downed chips as he could have potentially been banging them in for fun instead...[quote]and doesn''t have the strength to hold onto the ball anyway.[/quote]AGAIN, this is of primary importance to a TARGET MAN - RVW IS NOT A F**KING TARGET MAN, why the f**k do people keep obsessing about the aspects of his game that whilst not great, should be and are almost completely IRRELEVANT in regards to the type of striker he is and role he should be playing in????[quote]As for all this nonsense about him needing to be played in a two he was playing as a lone striker at sporting anyway.[/quote]Actually he was played as the most central of a front three, with the primary focus of the wider forwards to give him the sort of supply I''ve been banging on about for ages.And irrespective of him being the main, primary, centralised striker - they STILL didn''t ask him to play as a target man a''la Holt, Carroll etc, and instead they focused on giving him the balls he thrives on - we didn''t.[quote]People are just desperate for him to succeed and the old Cody, Becchio, Lafferty, Ofoe syndrome is kicking in whereby because he''s not played for a while the ol memory has begun to fail and it gets forgotten as to how poor/ limited a player they actually are and all the faults then get blamed on various managers.[/quote]It''s got jack all to do with memory, and everything to do with the fact that he''s been REPEATEDLY misused as a player and was almost destroyed by Hughton''s diabolical tactics.Knock Becchio all you want, but he came here having scored a goal every 2.5 games for Leeds (and having already hit 19 by the time we signed him in the Jan), he was then virtually frozen out by Hughton, only played THIRTEEN games for us and didn''t score once.Holt''s goals dried up under the clown as well, and there wasn''t a single PLAYER during that 2 year period that hit double figures (Despite Holt hitting 15 the year before, and Morison who he wanted shot of getting 9).

So, in conclusion, I''d argue that it''s YOU who is in denial and that the vast majority of $hit that''s been talked about RvW is nothing more than that - utter $hit...

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Newsflash - RvW has been complete sh1t for three seasons, worked with four managers and not impressed any of his loan clubs enough for them to take him permanently. All the facts point to the fact that actually, he''s not very good.

There is no way at all that Alex Neil should be changing our system to tailor RvW - this is just a complete nonsense.

Seriously, how hard it is to accept he''s pants and move on?

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[quote user="Hoola Han Solo"]Newsflash - RvW has been complete sh1t for three seasons, worked with four managers and not impressed any of his loan clubs enough for them to take him permanently. All the facts point to the fact that actually, he''s not very good.

There is no way at all that Alex Neil should be changing our system to tailor RvW - this is just a complete nonsense.

Seriously, how hard it is to accept he''s pants and move on?[/quote]Well, all those points have been addressed in relatively fair detail already, and at least I''m backing up my assertions with supporting evidence and information where possible, compared to those like you who can''t manage a response beyond "He''s pants"....great analysis there Han....

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As you may have seen on another thread, Steve Stone has confirmed that this will be RvW''s last season (if he''s not gone this window of course). Best of luck to Ricky but time to move on, he''s not in our plans.

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None of those strikers you mention lack all those attributes like Ricky does. They have all succeeded at the top level because they show they are outstanding in other areas which makes it worthwhile playing them despite the weaknesses you have highlighted.

As for saying he is a better passer because of % being higher than all those players mentioned that''s really a non starter as it doesn''t take into account the types of passes made, how often the player actually touches the ball and the quality of the ball played. Plenty of players can pass five yards but a good passer will have a range and will try more risky balls to try and open a defence once in a while meaning their accuracy may not be as high but they actually contribute more to the team. He didn''t whilst he was here. He would often just get rid quickly to a team mate and that''s on the rare occasions he actually got onto the ball.

You also fall into the same trap as many others in blaming the manager. Yes we scored less goals under Hughton but if Ricky had the quality you think he does he would have stood out as a poacher and certainly scored more than once that season. The Holt comparison is a case in point, yes he scored less goals that second season but he still scored goals (8x as many as Ricky), he still added to the team and still showed he had some ability to play at the top level.

Indy-Bones I''m happy to be educated on what he does offer that negates all those areas where he is weak but in the main your argument consists of all the managers were wrong because they didn''t play to his strengths. What are these strengths and how do they enable him to compete in the championship?

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It is sad that we are signing decent players and their careers are going down the toilet. It could be influencing prospective signings when they see what has happened.

The treatment of RVW by some "fans" or people pretending to be fans has been disgusting and directed against somebody lacking in confidence whose only crime is that he was so expensive.

The usual "not very good" and "dud" shallow criticisms have been going on now for nearly three years. This thread was supposed to be about a game that happened over a week ago but has turned into the usual argument against someone trying to support his club and be constructive.

OK, so we know you don''t rate him but chill out and we can move on, we most likely won''t see him play again.

Meanwhile people are desperate for us to spend twice as much on a player who has proved himself on a lower level.

I don''t think they would be happy for us only to give him 17 starts in 3 years.

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@Dead CanaryI love how the goalposts keep moving here!RvW

has statistically better overall passing accuracy than the long list of

strikers I posted, which clearly refutes the ''not a very good passer''

argument, which then you try to morph into a lengthy debate about range of passing, length of passes, opening defences etc. A succesful passer of the ball makes sure that the ball reaches a teammate rather than going out of play or to an opponent. Whether or not these passes are defensive, offensive or simply sideways is utterly irrelevant to the accuracy statistic which shows that RvW gives the ball away LESS than ALL of the aforementioned strikers/What''s more, he''s not a midfielder ffs. His job is not to spray balls all round the park from anywhere between 5-60 yards with pinpoint precision to a waiting player, in most cases it''s likely to be a much shorter range pass to an approaching teammate from the centre or a ball across the area for another player to run onto. [quote]He would often just get rid quickly to a team mate and that''s on the rare occasions he actually got onto the ball[/quote]Yes because:A) He''s not a target man, his strength is NOT to hold a ball up and then play it when the support finally gets there, he''s a goalpoacher, and thus he should be getting on the end of final passes rather than making them!B) As for the ''rare occasions'' you mention, that''s exactly what I''m talking about regarding the supply he received. He was regularly given jack all to work with, and when the likes of Snoddy had finished pi$$ing around on the wing for the last 2 minutes, they''d then whip in a cross that was all too frequently about 10 yards behind him and seemingly aimed at a 7ft 3" striker if height of the ball was anything to go by. He almost NEVER got the balls he would have thrived on, and more often than not when he did get passed the ball, he was in a position where he could do nothing with it - apart from pass it back to a teammate!And whilst I remember - the season RvW played for us, he averaged 0.5 key passes per game (i.e. the imporant ones which actually mean something to you), which considering how damn isolated he was that season, it''s interesting how this is better than Jerome''s 0.2 per game over almost the same amount of minutes last season, and I haven''t seen anyone claiming that Jerome can''t pass, so what''s the deal here?You say that other strikers listed are outstanding in other areas which makes it worthwhile - I fully agree, but at NO point over that season did RvW ever get the support or passes to show he can finish a decent ball given a reasonable chance, instead he was forced into an unfamiliar and unsuited position, given little no supply and then slated for it.Imagine sticking Thierry Henry upfront on his own (a guy who I STILL think is the best player to grace the Prem), a player who was notorious for being utterly terrible with his head (even if he was amazing at almost everything else), and then ONLY giving him high aerial balls to attack (which players like Carroll thrive on), would we see the usual 20 goal or more return we''d expect from a player of his ability, or would we be lucky to even see more than a handful of goals because he''s being utterly mis-used and told to perform a role that requires he use the WEAKEST of his abilities rather than being played correctly and in a role that utilises the STRONGEST of them? The fact that Arsenal didn''t spend all day giving him high Aerial balls and that he did usually hit 20+ a season tells me that Wenger was sensible enough to play him correctly, but when I try to defend RvW using the exact same logic and principles I get shouted down...As for blaming Hughton - the evidence is there in black and white FFS, just look at our top 5 goalscorers list to see:2011/2012 (Lambert)Holt - 15Morison - 9Pilks - 8SUrman - 4Wes - 4Total - 402012/2013 (Hughton)Holt - 8Snoddy - 6Pilks - 5Turner/Martin/Bassong/Wes - 3Howson - 2Total - 332013/2014 (Hughton)Hooper - 6Snoddy - 6Johnson/Fer - 3Howson - 28 players on 1Total - 25!2014/2015 (Adams, and in Champs)Jerome - 18Johnson - 15Hooper/Grabban - 12Howson - 9Redmond - 6Total - 72So in Hughton''s first season, we saw a 17.5% overall downturn across our top goalscorers compared to previously under Lambert, the season after that got even worse with a 37.5% downturn compared to the first season under Lambert (and a 24% downturn on from Hughton''s first season to last!), and then compare that with Adams first season (albeit in the champs) and it''s blindingly obvious that Hughton absolutely destroyed our goalscoring and in the process our goalscorers as well. And you''re telling me that I''m falling into a trap to blame Hughton, when we all know the football was dire, we all know that our goalscorers struggled to perform under Hughton and that he often made apalling tactical choices (such as bringing on a defensive mid to hold onto the game we were already losing!), but you still want to blame RvW instead....I''ve repeatedly stated how we''d need to setup to get the best from a player like RvW (and that goes for someone like McCormack to a certain extent as well), and it''s utterly apparent that AN has little to no desire to make this happen, even when we absolutely have the players to achieve this rather than insisting on the same old ''single big mobile unit upfront'' philosophy, that''s now gotten us relegated twice and subjected us to some truly awful to watch football in the process...But what difference do facts make when it comes to football eh?

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lots of talk here about various strikers stengths and weaknesness but can anyone actually say what any of RVW''s strengths are because I''m unable to detect any whatsover?

whether you want to factor in the money we paid for him to view it as "pound for pound" or if you want to disregard the financial element of it and just judge purely on ability.......I can say that in my 37 seasons of going to Carrow Road he is comfortably amongst the worst strikers I have ever seen.....the only one who would rival him in terms of weakness of both body and mind would be Paul Dalglish.

Clearly there are those who are prepared to continue to give him chances based purely on the fee we paid for him and the will to get some sort of money''s worth...but any other striker who had shown such lack of ability ...and I would put him in the bracket of the likes of Strihavka or Chris Brown on that score would have been got shot of a long time ago.

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GJL, his attributes are goalscorer, either foot and good header, very good with penalties.

If you remember that''s why we bought him and he scored last time he played for us.

You may have noticed that some of us have been discussing the best way to use his skills- should we need to play him-while others have been criticising and saying that we should give up.

What do you mean by "weakness of mind" and how would you suggest that we "get shot" of him?

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...use what skills....I''ve yet to see any evidence that he has any attribute?

by weakness of mind, I mean he has a lack of guts, a lack of heart....by get shot of him , I''m suggesting some sort of contract cancellation which would suit everybody.

Please lets not insult our own or anybody elses intellegence......I sure we''ve all been watching this game long enough to spot a good striker from one that isn''t, throw ant stats around you like.....we''ve all got eyes.

.

only in the last 48 hours Alex Neil has stressed the need for another striker, something he wouldnt be doing if he thought it already existed on our books......its not even if we''re not even about to embark on a Premier League campaign which suggests Neil doesnt think he can even cut it at this level.

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There is no magic contract cancellation where everyone is happy, if there was we would have done it a long time ago.

What is the point of paying a player off if we can loan him out for his last season.

Totally disagree about the guts and heart.The fact that he hasn''t walked out is proof of that.

I have been watching the game long enough to know that you cannot afford to write players off. Look at Eder at Swansea, his record there was worse and I am sure their fans were saying the same thing about him

Efan Ekoku was not liked here but came back to do prove us wrong, as has Chris Martin.

Remember when we tried to sign Makail-Smith but Simeon Jackson was amazing in the run in having previously been written off.

RVW would not have achieved what he has without being a good player. It hasn''t worked out and he probably won''t play for us again but sacking him would have no positive effect.

And you can sleep happy in your bed knowing that this time next year he will not be employed by our club

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