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pete

Since Paul Lambert the club has stagnated.

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Some of you make it all sound so easy. A snap of the fingers and you buy great players for buttons, and the club progresses.The Championship is full of clubs more than equal to our "size" that are properly stagnating.Forest, Derby, Leeds, Villa, and many more.There is no set formula, sooner or later you are going to hit a ceiling roughly where you deserve to be, based on your financial capabilities. Right now we''re lower Prem, bordering on yo-yoing. If we get some more investment, we can establish ourselves, but right now, as someone already said, we are probably punching above our weight.

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IMO the OP has raised a valid point re our hierarchy and our financial improvements and subsequently the footballing side of the club. The two of course are intermingled to quite an extent, however what if there was more to our inability to sign players than meets the eye. The fact we are located where we are may have very little to do with why some players don’t/won’t come, as may our salary structure, etc.

It may be that whilst we were once a club held in the highest regard by our peers and others, such as players and agents, we may no longer fall into that category and in fact may even be disliked by many.

Now, if that were the case, you may say, “but you don’t have to be liked to be successful in the transfer market” and that would be a fair point, but you probably need to be respected and conversely you probably need to be seen as a club that shows respect to others (peers, players, agents, etc.), if we were not liked and not respected how difficult would it become to entice players here?

Added to the above and with reference to ambition, we had Joe Royle join our Football Board and we had Mike Phelan here in a ‘coaching role’ I would have thought these two names were ambitious heavy weight recruitments but for some reason neither stayed very long, again was there more than meets the eye (or ear)?

All the above is supposition of course.

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[quote user="Ray"]IMO the OP has raised a valid point re our hierarchy and our financial improvements and subsequently the footballing side of the club. The two of course are intermingled to quite an extent, however what if there was more to our inability to sign players than meets the eye. The fact we are located where we are may have very little to do with why some players don’t/won’t come, as may our salary structure, etc.

It may be that whilst we were once a club held in the highest regard by our peers and others, such as players and agents, we may no longer fall into that category and in fact may even be disliked by many.

Now, if that were the case, you may say, “but you don’t have to be liked to be successful in the transfer market” and that would be a fair point, but you probably need to be respected and conversely you probably need to be seen as a club that shows respect to others (peers, players, agents, etc.), if we were not liked and not respected how difficult would it become to entice players here?

Added to the above and with reference to ambition, we had Joe Royle join our Football Board and we had Mike Phelan here in a ‘coaching role’ I would have thought these two names were ambitious heavy weight recruitments but for some reason neither stayed very long, again was there more than meets the eye (or ear)?

All the above is supposition of course
.[/quote]Just to pose the question, despite the disclaimer, will be taken by some as a coded hint of shenanigans. But in both cases there are straightforward explanations that don''t rely on hidden motives or tensions.Royle was offered a job by Everton in the summer and turned it down to come here. The likelihood is that - privately prompted by Martinez to reconsider - he did then have second thoughts about where was his true footballing home and decided to take the Everton jobs after all.As for Phelan, he may have come here thinking (as did many posters) that if Adams got the sack he would automatically be chosen to succeed him, and when that didn''t happen he realised - with the influx of Neil''s coaching staff - there was no place for him.

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Purple,

To quote you;

"But in both cases there are straightforward explanations that don''t rely on hidden motives or tensions."

If there were some shenanigans, hidden motives or tensions, surely a straight forward explanation would be offered up, wouldn''t it?

Maybe, only a maybe of course, Mr Royle didn''t like what he found here, whatever that could of been, and decided it wasn''t for him, so gladly accepted Martinez''s offer to reconsider.

And may be Phelan was made some sort of promise, which was then reneged on and did in fact realise there was no place for him, or perhaps, this was no place for him.

Now, if that were the case it would hardly enhance the reputation of the club with people within the game.

Just a musing of course.

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I thought a straight forward explanation was given for Royle going, that his wife became ill, his family was in Liverpool and he got offered a job that meant he and the family could spend more time with/looking after his wife.

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[quote user="Ray"]Purple,

To quote you;

"But in both cases there are straightforward explanations that don''t rely on hidden motives or tensions."

If there were some shenanigans, hidden motives or tensions, surely a straight forward explanation would be offered up, wouldn''t it?

Maybe, only a maybe of course, Mr Royle didn''t like what he found here, whatever that could of been, and decided it wasn''t for him, so gladly accepted Martinez''s offer to reconsider.

And may be Phelan was made some sort of promise, which was then reneged on and did in fact realise there was no place for him, or perhaps, this was no place for him.

Now, if that were the case it would hardly enhance the reputation of the club with people within the game.

Just a musing of course.[/quote]Ray, I don''t think these explanations were actually offered up. They are the obvious explanations that fit the public facts, and my general attitude is to accept that kind of explanation unless given reason to think otherwise. Of course your hypothetical scenarios would hardly do the club''s reputation any good. Assuming you do mean them just to be taken as hypothetical, of course. That these are entirely idle musings...

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Whatever the musings, are we really not ready for additional investment, was this season not the best time to attract outside investment like Everton & Swansea?

Where does this season leave us if we get relegated? Players leaving, left with older squad, potentially good youngsters having to make that step up? Can AN bounce back from a relegation, motivate the squad sign the players needed to go up? He inherited that squad which got us up.

Continuous improvement is difficult thing to do with our tight budget and maybe a high profile manager like Ranieri would help to attract players.

I''m not sure clubs stagnate but I''m not too impressed with Bowkett''s replacements.

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It''s all down to poor recruitment. I don''t think Hughton, Neil or even Adams are bad managers but they''ve all had to work with a mistake prone squad with a nice bit of technical ability but no real weapons at this level, nothing that can hurt teams.

We''re good enough at Championship level to control games and play at our tempo, but we''re just not a good enough side at this level to play the patient game we want to. When we have tried to sign a different type of player to give us more options, more physicality, more direct running ability like Mulumbu/Vadis/Pinto etc they''ve all flopped or can''t get a game. We''re like a poor mans version of the frustrating, one dimensional Arsenal team from a couple of years back that could only scrape 4th every year.

If we can have a semi decent window and give Neil some more options and balance in the side I think he''ll do well next year. It doesn''t matter how tactically astute you are, if you are limited by your players to only have one way to play you''re going to look stupid at times and like you can''t change things.

We can''t afford to sign anymore Dorrans/Naismith/Jarvis/Andreu etc inferior versions of Wes for a start. I want to see a lot more physicality and steel added to the side alongside a Surman/Fox type cm who gets all around the park linking passes and looking for space...like Wes has to do in every game as well as his usual CAM duties because we''re usually so bloody static in possession.

Lambert built a hard working, fast counter attacking side. We all loved that kind of football. Sod dominating possession! It''s boring, we want to see fast, incisive attacking plat. Sign players for that approach!

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An excellent post Pete which many will agree with apart from the normal ones popping up and commenting.

It''s also probably no surprise when one looks at the two previous clubs or CEO worked at who are both in serious decline at this time through a lack of forethought and forward planning.

We are I feel about to become his hat trick!

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We are never going to be able to buy success, we should have learned that by now. Players take time to settle in.

We will never get a quick fix.

Our success in the past has been in developing players either cheap buys from other clubs or young players.

That is not going to happen now so players like Eadie, Bellamy and Sutton would now be loaned out to lower league teams, written off and lost.

We have no reserve team so players like Vadis and Mulumbu cannot get match fitness back after injuries.

The type of player we need to sign will want to sign for a team that is more likely to stay up.

Ok it''s the same for Bournemouth, Watford etc even Leicester but eventually they drop back down. Hopefully we will better equipped as we were last season.

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The overriding view i am getting from a lot of posters on this thread is that David McNally has a God like status, walks on water and can do no wrong. He is a hard nosed businessman who is not out to gain friends but is financially driven and for that i have no problem.Those that know me will also know that my posts on this thread are not driven by dislike of the man but of a genuine concern over where we are heading. Believe it or not relegation does not mean automatic promotion next year as some on here seem to think. Relegation would be awful for our club and 26,000 clubs in the Championship would mean didderley squat.Look at the big picture of what is going on behind the scenes at Colney which has been a revolving door for several seasons now  of coaching staff and chief scouts,head of player recruitment or whatever you want to call them.Two stints for Ewan Chester,Barry Symonds who came from Fulham which just happens to be where David McNally came from so please don''t tell me had had no influence over that appointment. Joe Royle and Mike Phelan the only two in my book with a proven pedigree came and went.Gary Robson was not here five minutes before he was off. The upshot is there has been no consistency or long term plan.Everybody wants to hang Paul Lambert out to dry over the way he left.It was only explained with a few cutting remarks delivered by Alan Bowkett which has left nothing but a bad taste in the mouth. Talking of Mr. Bowkett whatever went on there ? Just one common factor in all this and relegation will mean someone has two of those on his CV in three seasons including the one where '' relegation will be worse than death ''.If the debt free mantra gets wheeled out by those with yellow and green tinted glasses do you honestly think we will not be back in the poo poo next season if we are in the Championship ?I am not interested in the demise of Leeds,Villa or whoever but i tell you what i would rather have the recent appointments made to the board at Villa i.e.Bernstein,Bevington and Sir Mervyn King than i would Ed Balls and Young Tom.It is like comparing chalk and cheese as far as football and financial nous is concerned.Nothing is certain in football and i have seen virtually the full spectrum here at Norwich City over 50 odd years of supporting and i would rather have 12.45pm KO''s and the odd 5.30pm playing the big boys than regular 3pm KOs at the likes of Burton and Barnsley. This is not the time for romance and ticking off new grounds where 20 is plenty and safe standing has won the day.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]The overriding view i am getting from a lot of posters on this thread is that David McNally has a God like status, walks on water and can do no wrong. He is a hard nosed businessman who is not out to gain friends but is financially driven and for that i have no problem.Those that know me will also know that my posts on this thread are not driven by dislike of the man but of a genuine concern over where we are heading. Believe it or not relegation does not mean automatic promotion next year as some on here seem to think. Relegation would be awful for our club and 26,000 clubs in the Championship would mean didderley squat.Look at the big picture of what is going on behind the scenes at Colney which has been a revolving door for several seasons now  of coaching staff and chief scouts,head of player recruitment or whatever you want to call them.Two stints for Ewan Chester,Barry Symonds who came from Fulham which just happens to be where David McNally came from so please don''t tell me had had no influence over that appointment. Joe Royle and Mike Phelan the only two in my book with a proven pedigree came and went.Gary Robson was not here five minutes before he was off. The upshot is there has been no consistency or long term plan.Everybody wants to hang Paul Lambert out to dry over the way he left.It was only explained with a few cutting remarks delivered by Alan Bowkett which has left nothing but a bad taste in the mouth. Talking of Mr. Bowkett whatever went on there ? Just one common factor in all this and relegation will mean someone has two of those on his CV in three seasons including the one where '' relegation will be worse than death ''.If the debt free mantra gets wheeled out by those with yellow and green tinted glasses do you honestly think we will not be back in the poo poo next season if we are in the Championship ?I am not interested in the demise of Leeds,Villa or whoever but i tell you what i would rather have the recent appointments made to the board at Villa i.e.Bernstein,Bevington and Sir Mervyn King than i would Ed Balls and Young Tom.It is like comparing chalk and cheese as far as football and financial nous is concerned.Nothing is certain in football and i have seen virtually the full spectrum here at Norwich City over 50 odd years of supporting and i would rather have 12.45pm KO''s and the odd 5.30pm playing the big boys than regular 3pm KOs at the likes of Burton and Barnsley. This is not the time for romance and ticking off new grounds where 20 is plenty and safe standing has won the day.[/quote]

 

Blimey!

 

Have the shifting sands os "I''d rather be....." ever shifted so quickly[:O]

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I see Bernstein and King have quit this afternoon. They apparently wanted to trim the Villa cloth to suit the Championship but others on the board still think they are a big club. Never mind hey we will bounce straight back if we go down no ifs or buts about it, yeah ?

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The chances of us bouncing back are not good. You know that I never held water with that "best side in the Championship" guff spouted last season. It''s unfashioinable on here but I think last season was a fantastic achievement during which many people, including Neil Adams, played a part. This season QPR were labelled the same "best team in the Championship". They also apparently has the "best owner in the Championship". But as always the reality hasn''t read the script...

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So what''s the solution then?

Everyone loves to moan yet very very few actually offer any realistic and viable solution to the said problems they have mentioned.

Just curious to hear what people think we should do that would be better (oligarchs and sheiks aren''t realistic).

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Exactly Nutty but we have the best owners, the best CEO, the best fans but as you say reality does not read the script. This does not distract from my concern over the revolving door at Colney with back room staff in recent years. Surely that is no foundation on which to build our future ? Stability and progression has no chance with what has been going on and who do you hold accountable for that ? That is not the fault of Alex Neil nor is it Delia''s fault as she has handed responsibility for all matters at NCFC to one man only.

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Til1010

Are you saying that all CEOs sit on the management team that runs the football side of the business at other clubs ? Our football operation is run from Colney and the '' director '' of football there has never played the professional game. McNally is a money man. Now if you are saying that sits comfortably with you fair enough but it is not my view on the matter."

That''s a fair point, McNally and Ricky should really be held to account for our failure to be ready for the summer window.

In many other businesses failing to properly plan for such a crucial core part of the business, namely recruitment, at their level would see you out the door.

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[quote user="The Walking Man "]So what''s the solution then?

Everyone loves to moan yet very very few actually offer any realistic and viable solution to the said problems they have mentioned.

Just curious to hear what people think we should do that would be better (oligarchs and sheiks aren''t realistic).[/quote]Simple answer is they don''t have one. They would rather just whine and whinge. I think they get off on it.

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The Walking Man wrote the following post at 18/04/2016 6:54 PM:

So what''s the solution then?

Everyone loves to moan yet very very few actually offer any realistic and viable solution to the said problems they have mentioned.

Just curious to hear what people think we should do that would be better (oligarchs and sheiks aren''t realistic). "

Well how about starting with a Director of football who has the right cv for such an important role.

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[quote user="Vanwink"]The Walking Man wrote the following post at 18/04/2016 6:54 PM:

So what''s the solution then?

Everyone loves to moan yet very very few actually offer any realistic and viable solution to the said problems they have mentioned.

Just curious to hear what people think we should do that would be better (oligarchs and sheiks aren''t realistic). "

Well how about starting with a Director of football who has the right cv for such an important role.[/quote]Whos is our current "Director of football"?

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We do not have a Director of Football. Ricky Martin is the Technical Director and he has totally the right cv for that role.

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[quote user="Vanwink"]Technical Director ....Ricky[/quote]Thats not what I asked though, is it?

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[quote user="The Walking Man "]What does/should a director of football do?[/quote]Heres an example of one.....[URL=http://s869.photobucket.com/user/mortymccarthy/media/1208995_614988921857320_389944421_n_zps3fee54a7.jpg.html][IMG]http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab257/mortymccarthy/1208995_614988921857320_389944421_n_zps3fee54a7.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

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Senior individuals in the football side of the club should have experience at the highest level.

Promoting from within sounds nice, but to develop the club we need to be bringing in senior people who have operated at the highest level in other clubs who can bring in new ideas and vision.

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[quote user="Vanwink"]Senior individuals in the football side of the club should have experience at the highest level.

Promoting from within sounds nice, but to develop the club we need to be bringing in senior people who have operated at the highest level in other clubs who can bring in new ideas and vision.[/quote]Like the guy I posted above?How much do they cost then?

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