So... who's supporting the Junior Doctor strike?

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Ian"]Why would anyone ever trust the Government?

My issue with the Doctors'' Strike is that apparently the issue is not about pay and hours, but in-fact, that the safety of patients would be jeopardised if Doctors (who are already completely flat-out) worked even harder.

However, if this is the case then why threaten to pull emergency care in the strike? Shows to me that perhaps it is more about lifestyle and finance than patient care.[/quote]I don''t know the rights and wrongs of this particular case. However the general point about workers who provide a service to the public that they see being jeopardised is that they only practical leverage they have to fight that backward step is - in the short term - to threaten to damage the very service they want to safeguard. Particularly so since the employers, whether private companies or the government, will use emotional blackmail to try to paint the workers as heartless. The "How dare you endanger the public by striking?" line.Another general point is that some posters seem to be critical of (one might almost say envious of) doctors for being efficiently unionised. Well, good for the doctors. If some have chosen to join industries with poor or non-existent unionisation, or voted for political parties that were antagonistic to workers'' rights (on the "It seemed like a good idea at the time" basis"), that was their choice.

[morty 0]

Cough cough smug patronising pr1ck cough cough.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,020]

The cynic in me says the Govt is looking to paint the NHS as failing and creating the opportunity to part privatise it, if that happens I wonder who will benefit, it sure as hell will not be the public. The strike is not about money, the core of the issue is the the new contract will stretch a profession even further meaning we will be treated by individuals who are knackered and all the dangers that poses. I support the junior doctors because I do not want anybody being treated by somebody who is too tired..........

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,020]

Oh and I am surprised that so many have swallowed the line that no emergency care will be provided during the strike, it simply is not true, cover will be provided by senior staff, consultants etc, and should there some kind of unforeseen major incident Junior Doctors will come into work......

[The gut 0]

FJSP SOB - It would be great if you could point me in the direction of where it is stated that they will work longer or harder to make them tired. I can''t find anything, apart from it does look like the money.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,020]

At the moment NHS Trusts receive a financial penalty if they work Doctors longer than they should, the new contract takes away this safety net and a much more fundamental point is there are simply not enough Junior Doctors to run a full seven day a week NHS........

[The gut 0]

http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Documents/Need%20to%20know/Junior%20Doctors%202016%20contract%20%20AT%20A%20GLANCE%20FINAL%2022%20Feb.pdf

Looks fair to me. Someone in the know needs to explain why this is not good.

[The gut 0]

Thanks for the info FJSP SOB.

It''s hard to believe at the moment that only the junior doctors think that there will not be enough cover.

[Badger 2,405]

To those that suggest if they don''t like conditions they should find another career or work elsewhere, I think that this is precisely what is happening. I can only comment upon my own experiences of the NHS, but my GP is Spanish (very good) and the last few times that I have been to NNUH, I would judge that the large majority of doctors that have treated me were not British born. Most of the best-educated UK  population seem to prefer "more important" careers like banking and accountancy, doing precisely what is being suggested. Seeing the desperate TV advertising for teachers, I suspect that similar things are happening in Education as well.Frighteningly, if the anti-EU lot have their way, presumably such immigration will be stopped?

[Guest]

I would much rather we stay in a reformed EU, but I don''t think anyone is suggesting we stop the immigration of talented doctors?

I get that a strawman is easier than a reasoned argument, but my understanding is that it''s more about being able to control immigration than stopping it?!

[king canary 7,580]

@Ian

Firstly I don''t work in the public sector and I never have so my salary is also not guaranteed by the tax payer.

I have a good job and I work pretty hard. However I have no truck with those who confuse working hard with working long hours. There are studies that show workers productivity drops off significantly once you work more than 50 hours a week and if you are regularly having to work 60-70 hour weeks it means you''re doing something wrong. If you work for yourself fine, at least you''re putting all that time into making yourself money. However if you work for someone else all your doing is running yourslef into the ground to make someone else money. Any company that needs its staff to work 24 hours straight to deliver a project needs to hire more staff.

With regards to junior doctors it is even more important they don''t work those sort of hours if possible. If you make a mistake at the end of a marathon work shift the worst that happens is the software doesn''t work. For doctors it can mean somebody dies. I know I''d much rather have a well rested and fresh doctor helping me than one who has been working for 14 hours straight.

Finally if you want or choose to work the sort of hours you and Paul have mentioned then that is totally your choice. But the idea that because you''ve chosen to everyone else needs to be held to those standards is just plain wrong.

[Guest]

King Canary, I don''t recall saying anything like "everyone else needs to be held to my standards".

My point was that it''s not unusual for key staff to have to work ridiculous hours at times, particularly for start ups and small businesses. Calling people "idiots" for doing so makes you look arrogant to be perfectly honest.

I don''t think anyone has suggested it''s a good idea that Junior MDs work longer hours either. Indeed, I think it would be disastrous if that was the case. However, as someone looking from the outside in (I may have completely misunderstood the situation), it seems to be the case that it boils down to contractual changes and weekend shifts not being seen as overtime.

[king canary 7,580]

Idiot might be a bit harsh but I stand by the general point. I don''t think working long hours is something to be admired or boasted about and if you''re doing it regularly while working for someone else then you''re being taken for a ride. There are too many people who wear ''I work 60 hours a week'' as a badge of honor and if any other profession (in this case doctors) tries to stand up against this they get called lazy or greedy (as Paul did).

[cornish sam 947]

[quote user="The gut"]Ah, maybe you could help us then cornish sam.

"The point is though that the contract being imposed is not fit for the stated purpose and will do more harm to the NHS than good".

What is it in the contract that makes it not fit for purpose and what harm will it do to the NHS?[/quote]

So the stated purpose is to provide 24/7 care, this contract will not do that, there are already junior doctors working 24/7, it is in the other areas that the problem lies. For example Paul moy''s friend wouldn''t have been in a better situation with this contract as junior doctors alone would not have been able to do the necessary operation without the senior surgeons, anaesthesiologist, etc who aren''t covered by this contract.

The reason I say it will do more harm than good is that there is verifiable evidence (that I can''t be bothered to link to now as I''m on my phone and would have to find it) that the pipeline of graduates into the NHS will be further restricted and that a significant portion of junior doctors already in the system are already looking elsewhere, either outside the country or outside the profession as a whole. Since there is already insufficient doctors coming through training that will exacerbate an already mounting problem.

[canarydan23 4,060]

In a thread so full of ignorance, you have to go back a few pages to find the funniest comment.

"I read the 75% figure in The Telegraph, which I consider to be a fairly reliable source."

The Telegraph. A fairly reliable source. Christ on a carthorse I''m going to be laughing about that one for a good few weeks. It doesn''t surprise me that the author of said quote has to work 80 hour weeks to make ends meet.

I work 28 hours a week and get by just fine and I refuse to work any hours that I''m not paid for. It''s the type of demand you can make if you are a useful, efficient and educated employee. I do have colleagues who get in two hours early and stay until after the watershed but they don''t get paid as much. Despite this, I am not anywhere close to being as useful, efficient and educated as our junior doctors. I have a very good friend who in some weeks has to do so many extra unpaid hours that his effective hourly rate shrinks to less than what I get paid. I work in an industry about as unvital as they possibly come and have a degree that is only useful when you''re out of toilet roll and need something to wipe your ass with that took 3 largely drunk or drugged years to acquire.

He spent 5 years in expensive academic-study and two years in training. His university experience was one of 40 hour timetables, late nights in the library and a barely existent social life. And they have to pay to enter the exams that they are forced to undertake. And the stethosopes around their necks or the device they poke in your ear. The taxpayer didn''t buy them, they paid for them themselves.

Anyone who thinks Junior Doctors are in it for the money is so stupid that they must think a media organ of the Barclay Brothers is a credible and reliable source of information.

And if you force doctors to regularly work 60+ hour weeks, mistakes will be made. You make a mistake in most jobs, you cost your company a bit of money. You make a mistake as a Junior Doctor and someone could die.

If you haven''t deduced (and I suspect some readers will be struggling) I''m fully behind the strike, as I suspect most people who are reasonably sensible, not attracted to UKIP and not bitter would and should be.

[morty 0]

Wow[:D]

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="canarydan23"]In a thread so full of ignorance, you have to go back a few pages to find the funniest comment.

"I read the 75% figure in The Telegraph, which I consider to be a fairly reliable source."

The Telegraph. A fairly reliable source. Christ on a carthorse I''m going to be laughing about that one for a good few weeks. It doesn''t surprise me that the author of said quote has to work 80 hour weeks to make ends meet.

I work 28 hours a week and get by just fine and I refuse to work any hours that I''m not paid for. It''s the type of demand you can make if you are a useful, efficient and educated employee. I do have colleagues who get in two hours early and stay until after the watershed but they don''t get paid as much. Despite this, I am not anywhere close to being as useful, efficient and educated as our junior doctors. I have a very good friend who in some weeks has to do so many extra unpaid hours that his effective hourly rate shrinks to less than what I get paid. I work in an industry about as unvital as they possibly come and have a degree that is only useful when you''re out of toilet roll and need something to wipe your ass with that took 3 largely drunk or drugged years to acquire.

He spent 5 years in expensive academic-study and two years in training. His university experience was one of 40 hour timetables, late nights in the library and a barely existent social life. And they have to pay to enter the exams that they are forced to undertake. And the stethoscopes around their necks or the device they poke in your ear. The taxpayer didn''t buy them, they paid for them themselves.

Anyone who thinks Junior Doctors are in it for the money is so stupid that they must think a media organ of the Barclay Brothers is a credible and reliable source of information.

And if you force doctors to regularly work 60+ hour weeks, mistakes will be made. You make a mistake in most jobs, you cost your company a bit of money. You make a mistake as a Junior Doctor and someone could die.

If you haven''t deduced (and I suspect some readers will be struggling) I''m fully behind the strike, as I suspect most people who are reasonably sensible, not attracted to UKIP and not bitter would and should be.[/quote]

You know, I think I like you.

[The gut 0]

Who says junior doctors are in it for the money? All of my life I have never heard that a doctor or nurse are in it for the money. It makes me laugh when this point is argued. It is a non argument in my opinion.

However, the question of money is raised because of the new contract, as we try to find what the jd''s gripe is.

As the new contract says they will work the same contracted hours, and made to work less hours there seems to be only issues with that they can be rostered in out of hours for less overtime rate. It seems logical that this is a problem because they either want more money for it or they want to prevent themselves from having to work those hours. That is not to say they are in it for the money.

[Guest]

Yeah totally agree Gut.

Some people are incapable of rational or reasoned discussion without resorting to the whole "Doctors are selfless angels", "Corporations, UKIP are the devil" etc.

Sad really.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user=" Badger"]To those that suggest if they don''t like conditions they should find another career or work elsewhere, I think that this is precisely what is happening. I can only comment upon my own experiences of the NHS, but my GP is Spanish (very good) and the last few times that I have been to NNUH, I would judge that the large majority of doctors that have treated me were not British born. Most of the best-educated UK  population seem to prefer "more important" careers like banking and accountancy, doing precisely what is being suggested. Seeing the desperate TV advertising for teachers, I suspect that similar things are happening in Education as well.Frighteningly, if the anti-EU lot have their way, presumably such immigration will be stopped?[/quote]

Stupid assumption there !!

Coming out of the EU will NOT mean that immigration is stopped. It will instead mean that we can control it by a visa system which allows us to recruit from abroad however many people we need and with the skills that we need. It means that we can import employable quality rather than mass unemployable quantity that we do at the moment.

.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="king canary"]@Ian

Firstly I don''t work in the public sector and I never have so my salary is also not guaranteed by the tax payer.

I have a good job and I work pretty hard. However I have no truck with those who confuse working hard with working long hours. There are studies that show workers productivity drops off significantly once you work more than 50 hours a week and if you are regularly having to work 60-70 hour weeks it means you''re doing something wrong. If you work for yourself fine, at least you''re putting all that time into making yourself money. However if you work for someone else all your doing is running yourslef into the ground to make someone else money. Any company that needs its staff to work 24 hours straight to deliver a project needs to hire more staff.

With regards to junior doctors it is even more important they don''t work those sort of hours if possible. If you make a mistake at the end of a marathon work shift the worst that happens is the software doesn''t work. For doctors it can mean somebody dies. I know I''d much rather have a well rested and fresh doctor helping me than one who has been working for 14 hours straight.

Finally if you want or choose to work the sort of hours you and Paul have mentioned then that is totally your choice. But the idea that because you''ve chosen to everyone else needs to be held to those standards is just plain wrong.[/quote]

King Canary, you are so wrong !! It is not just a matter of employing more people. It is the nature of the job that only one or two people have the skills to complete the task, having worked on the project for maybe two years. If you simply up numbers on implementation those people would not have the skills or experience of that project and it would be a case of ''too many cooks''.

It is simply the nature of the job that it requires a person/s with all of the skills to be available non-stop for monitoring/troubleshooting etc during extended hours on implementation.

[king canary 7,580]

@Paul

Great- what does it have to do with junior doctors?

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="The gut"]Who says junior doctors are in it for the money? All of my life I have never heard that a doctor or nurse are in it for the money. It makes me laugh when this point is argued. It is a non argument in my opinion.[/quote]If you go through this thread, you''ll see the word ''greed'' used a few times as a way to describe the stance of the Junior doctors.The actual issues of the strike is less about money and more about working hours / conditions. Despite what your argument or opinion is, just go back a few pages, and I think you''ll see this perception is out there.

[hogesar 9,618]

Kind of get the feeling we''re in for a Walking Dead like Zombie Apocalypse on strike day. And there''ll be no junior doctors to treat us.

Booo!

[paul moy 235]

It is about money !!

Junior doctors are unhappy because at the moment they get extra shift money for weekends but under the new contract will not as every day worked is treated equally.

They are liars !!

[The gut 0]

[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="The gut"]Who says junior doctors are in it for the money? All of my life I have never heard that a doctor or nurse are in it for the money. It makes me laugh when this point is argued. It is a non argument in my opinion.[/quote]If you go through this thread, you''ll see the word ''greed'' used a few times as a way to describe the stance of the Junior doctors.The actual issues of the strike is less about money and more about working hours / conditions. Despite what your argument or opinion is, just go back a few pages, and I think you''ll see this perception is out there.[/quote]

I think we read things differently ghost of MK. I don''t need to read back, I remember reading greed but I read it in the terms of refusing the new contract. I do not read doctors are only in it for the money. There is a difference.

I understand any perception of greed because if I read the new contract it seems there is better control to reduce their hours. It would be great to hear the exact reason of their complaint.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="king canary"]@Paul

Great- what does it have to do with junior doctors?[/quote]

The point was being made that people in the private sector often work as long or longer than junior doctors. These people are no special case IMO.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="The gut"]Who says junior doctors are in it for the money? All of my life I have never heard that a doctor or nurse are in it for the money. It makes me laugh when this point is argued. It is a non argument in my opinion.[/quote]If you go through this thread, you''ll see the word ''greed'' used a few times as a way to describe the stance of the Junior doctors.The actual issues of the strike is less about money and more about working hours / conditions. Despite what your argument or opinion is, just go back a few pages, and I think you''ll see this perception is out there.[/quote]

Well, it is about greed. Junior doctors are losing overtime allowances. Overtime pay is not a right in any industry.

[Van wink 2,994]

hogesar wrote the following post at 25/04/2016 12:25 PM:

Kind of get the feeling we''re in for a Walking Dead like Zombie Apocalypse on strike day. And there''ll be no junior doctors to treat us.

No treatment available for that one 😄

[Buh 0]

Never seen a skint doctor