So... who's supporting the Junior Doctor strike?

[Van wink 2,994]

The new contract is not the horrendous curb on doctors pay and rights, and the end of the nhs as we know it, some junior doctors would have you believe

It''s there to regularise working hours and pay and bring it in line with the terms and conditions similar to most other workers in the public sector.

7 day working is pretty much the norm now, how many of you get paid double time for working Sunday''s?

The doctors will use the emotional clout they have to try and persuade us that they are being stuffed here, it''s not the case, most will be working less hours as these will be limited.

The labour government was done over by the GPs when they gave in to a ridiculously over generous GP contract, which we are now having to pay for, don''t make the same mistakes with junior doctors.

[MooreMarriot 310]

"....Don''t call me a liar MooreMarriot you weren''t there.  Idiot...."

Perhaps you could supply us with more details about this alleged clinic you attended . 

Was it at the N@N ?

Which clinic was it ?

How many people were there ?

[curious yellow 184]

People given that responsibility should not put lives at risk for money. Trouble is Camoron would welcome the fact that more people would die before he paid them a pension.

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="MooreMarriot"]"....Don''t call me a liar MooreMarriot you weren''t there.  Idiot...."

Perhaps you could supply us with more details about this alleged clinic you attended . 

Was it at the N@N ?

Which clinic was it ?

How many people were there ?

[/quote]YesIf I told you that I might as well publish my medical records.Around 10

[A Load of Squit 5,136]

"The Prime Minister quietly announced a new bonus scheme worth thousands of pounds for top civil servants.

Senior

Officials will be in line for ''on the spot'' bonuses of up to £5,000 to

recognise "outstanding contribution" to Government departments.

The top-ups will be doled out to the 10% highest performing officials working for Government departments.

A

spokesperson for the Cabinet Office said the money for the new bonus

scheme will come from the existing civil service budget, but can be paid

at any time through the year."

"Meanwhile, the Government confirmed last night it would award armed forces personnel pay rises of just 1% across the board.

The increase is in line with the 1% cap on wage increases in the public sector.

But it is lower than the 1.3% salary bump MPs accepted this month, boosting their basic salary to £74,962."

This why we shouldn''t trust the Government, they are just looking after themselves and their friends.

[Guest]

Why would anyone ever trust the Government?

My issue with the Doctors'' Strike is that apparently the issue is not about pay and hours, but in-fact, that the safety of patients would be jeopardised if Doctors (who are already completely flat-out) worked even harder.

However, if this is the case then why threaten to pull emergency care in the strike? Shows to me that perhaps it is more about lifestyle and finance than patient care.

[City 2nd 191]

firststeps wrote the following post at 2016-04-24 12:41 PM:

For the first time ever, all junior Doctors are walking out, neglecting the care of the pregnant, cancer patients and many many more.

Personally, I''m not! Times are changing, proffresions are working longer hours within a 7 day week. I think the Doctors striking and neglecting the health of patients that are paying for the NHS is unacceptable.

If you had family who actually work as junior doctors/ nurses you would understand exactly why they are getting the support they do! Would you want the Govt minister for health changing your contract without notice. You have NO idea my friend. Would you really want to work a night shift starting at 8pm and leave off the next day at 11am, and be expected to start your next late shift at 2pm and get less for it? Somehow I think not!

[Funny old game 0]

All very interesting but this is a football forum. Unless you''re talking about clinical finishing or hospital passes then you''re on the wrong site.

[damn that Ralph Coates! 47]

[quote user="morty"]Out of interest, what does a junior doctor earn? And don''t worry, this isn''t a stick to beat with, as I recognise the years of training they have to carry out to get where they are.[/quote]

Morty, they start on £22,862 after all the years in training, in their mid-twenties, with a student loan of 70k.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/juniors-pay-england

But their strike isn''t about the money, it''s about the imposition of the contract.

[firststeps 0]

City 2nd, you clearly have no idea of my profession. I regularly work many hours beyond my shift, and work nights. So my friend, don''t second guess my experience or my opinion!

[morty 0]

[quote user="damn that Ralph Coates"][quote user="morty"]Out of interest, what does a junior doctor earn? And don''t worry, this isn''t a stick to beat with, as I recognise the years of training they have to carry out to get where they are.[/quote]

Morty, they start on £22,862 after all the years in training, in their mid-twenties, with a student loan of 70k.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/juniors-pay-england

But their strike isn''t about the money, it''s about the imposition of the contract.[/quote]Just happened to me, not a damn thing I could do about it.The public sector is suffering the same as the private sector.

[A Load of Squit 5,136]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="damn that Ralph Coates"][quote user="morty"]Out of interest, what does a junior doctor earn? And don''t worry, this isn''t a stick to beat with, as I recognise the years of training they have to carry out to get where they are.[/quote]

Morty, they start on £22,862 after all the years in training, in their mid-twenties, with a student loan of 70k.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/juniors-pay-england

But their strike isn''t about the money, it''s about the imposition of the contract.[/quote]Just happened to me, not a damn thing I could do about it.The public sector is suffering the same as the private sector.[/quote]

Just because you rolled over and let the bosses tickle your tummy doesn''t mean that other people can''t make a stand against the imposition of terms that they don''t agree with.

[morty 0]

[quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="morty"][quote user="damn that Ralph Coates"][quote user="morty"]Out of interest, what does a junior doctor earn? And don''t worry, this isn''t a stick to beat with, as I recognise the years of training they have to carry out to get where they are.[/quote]

Morty, they start on £22,862 after all the years in training, in their mid-twenties, with a student loan of 70k.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/juniors-pay-england

But their strike isn''t about the money, it''s about the imposition of the contract.[/quote]Just happened to me, not a damn thing I could do about it.The public sector is suffering the same as the private sector.[/quote]

Just because you rolled over and let the bosses tickle your tummy doesn''t mean that other people can''t make a stand against the imposition of terms that they don''t agree with.

[/quote]How do you know thats how it happened?I have no issue with taking a stand, but dressing it up as being about patient safety, then compromising patient safety by striking, doesn''t really follow logic, does it?

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="damn that Ralph Coates!"][quote user="morty"]Out of interest, what does a junior doctor earn? And don''t worry, this isn''t a stick to beat with, as I recognise the years of training they have to carry out to get where they are.[/quote]

Morty, they start on £22,862 after all the years in training, in their mid-twenties, with a student loan of 70k.

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/juniors-pay-england

But their strike isn''t about the money, it''s about the imposition of the contract.[/quoteThen how come the doctors went on strike before the minister imposed the new contract?  To say the strike isn''t about pay is rubbish.....................it''s treating the general public as morons.  When patients start to die because of the lack of cover, you''ll see how moronic we are....................NOT.

[cornish sam 949]

I''ve not read all of it but have some observations to make so apologies if I am repeating someone.

the 75% earning more surely proves that it''s not about the money bit the working conditions, it''s not as though they are saying give us more money(like the tube drivers), they are saying leave it as is or improve conditions and give us less.

Also, the earning more money is only for the next few years whilst certain things are protected, new starters after that they will be earning less per hour.

If you have his contract is about providing 24/7 care then why is it only junior doctors being involved? What about the myriad other people involved in hospital care Luke anesthesiologists, radiologists, specialists/consultants, estates staff, etc... Junior doctors Alone cannot make a 24/7 service, if anything it should be the consultants targeted first as there aren''t any of them during the unsociable hours.

The NHS is already buckling under the pressure and official figures are that they are currently running something like 6000 new doctors per year short when it comes to recruitment, this is going to make the situation far worse deepening the current vicious circle that means only a small fraction of medical students actually become doctors in the English NHS (as let''s not forget it is NHS England imposing this, the Scots aren''t touching their contract).

All in all I''m in favour of the strike, the situation at the moment is untenable, the contract changes will make it worse. Root and branch review and changes are needed to give us an NHS that is once more for for purpose and something to be proud of.

[morty 0]

Why would anyone make contract changes, that would be detrimental to the NHS, as a whole?

[cornish sam 949]

[quote user="Ian"]Why would anyone ever trust the Government?

My issue with the Doctors'' Strike is that apparently the issue is not about pay and hours, but in-fact, that the safety of patients would be jeopardised if Doctors (who are already completely flat-out) worked even harder.

However, if this is the case then why threaten to pull emergency care in the strike? Shows to me that perhaps it is more about lifestyle and finance than patient care.[/quote]

So Ian which is better, jeopordising people''s safety for one day (when extra consultants and senior staff will be available) PR jeopordising people in perpetuity of the contract?

[Van wink 2,994]

The doctors are not being asked to work harder, the contract is regularising their hours so weekends fit into the rosta without double pay, nothing unusual about that these days.

[Guest]

Sam, you seem to know a lot about this? Are Doctors'' being asked to work longer hours?

[damn that Ralph Coates! 47]

they weren''t getting "double pay" either. By imposing the move to an evenly spread 7 day service even though Dept of Health have never piloted it, they necessarily move some of the doctor service from weekdays making it even more threadbare there (they are thousands short, just as they are 5000 GPs short) - and that is a safety issue.

[Herman 9,718]

[quote user="morty"]Why would anyone make contract changes, that would be detrimental to the NHS, as a whole?[/quote]There are quite a few MPs and donors that have a lot money tied up in private health care companies and are already bennifiting from NHS contracts. Probably not linked in this case, (can''t be arsed to delve deeper), but I simply can not trust these feckers,and their friends in the media, when it comes to the NHS.Underfund, undervalue, undermine.

[Van wink 2,994]

damn that Ralph Coates! wrote the following post at 24/04/2016 8:57 PM:

they weren''t getting "double pay" either. By imposing the move to an evenly spread 7 day service even though Dept of Health have never piloted it, they necessarily move some of the doctor service from weekdays making it even more threadbare there (they are thousands short, just as they are 5000 GPs short) - and that is a safety issue.

Were they not getting additional remuneration for working weekends Ralph, I thought it was double pay, is it some other sort of additional allowance or have I misunderstood that?

[The gut 0]

I gave up researching the facts on this a few weeks ago because it I got bored sifting through the opinions.

As I understood it, the main issue was less overtime being paid over the weekend because it was going to be on their rota. The claim that patients were at risk was due to the fact that as their rota was being spread over a longer period, which I think is a smokescreen, where is the fact. I also understood that the majority got a very good pay rise on their basic salary.

Each time I hear junior doctors stating their case I hear a smokescreen, I have not yet heard the exact nature of their complaint. Until I do, they do not get my support.

I get the impression junior doctors only want to lose their weekend if they get overtime, which I thought was going to be from 10pm on Saturday, and then later offered from 6pm.

Being a little cynical, I suspect (I am very happy to be proved wrong) that junior doctors have not been more detailed because they would lose support.

Accurate facts would be good to make an informed decision.

[Van wink 2,994]

The gut

"As I understood it, the main issue was less overtime being paid over the weekend because it was going to be on their rota. I also understood that the majority got a very good pay rise on their basic salary.

Each time I hear junior doctors stating their case I hear a smokescreen, I have not yet heard the exact nature of their complaint."

I haven''t heard a cogent argument explaining the junior doctors case either. There always seems to be lots of emotion but little evidence. It may be their case isn''t very strong or possibly that it''s not being reported properly in the press.

[cornish sam 949]

To be honest Ian, I don''t know. I imagine like most things it will be a case of some working longer hours, some shorter (though it will also depends what you are referring to, longer shifts, more hours per week, per month or an increase in regular, long, unsociable hours). The point is though that the contract being imposed is not fit for the stated purpose and will do more harm to the NHS than good.

Just one other point, the title junior doctor is quite misleading, some junior doctors have been doctors for 14+ years, leading teams of doctors and running wards. There isn''t really a role of just doctor in hospitals these days so it''s not as though this will just be impacting people for a couple of years just after they graduate, they will be stuck under these terms for a decade or more should they remain in the NHS.

[The gut 0]

Ah, maybe you could help us then cornish sam.

"The point is though that the contract being imposed is not fit for the stated purpose and will do more harm to the NHS than good".

What is it in the contract that makes it not fit for purpose and what harm will it do to the NHS?

[paul moy 235]

I''m against the strike as it''s clearly politically motivated, as most are in the public sector.

Also I have first-hand experience of losing a friend who had the misfortune to have a heart attack at a weekend. During the week he would have been operated on immediately but because it was a weekend he was stabilised pending availability of staff. He died while waiting for those staff to operate.

Also, unsocial and long hours are often normal in the private sector, myself having worked over 60 hours a week at peak times and once worked over 24 hours without sleep to complete a vital IT project.

Most of these guys also go on to earn 100K a year. It''s greed.

[The gut 0]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980

[king canary 7,580]

''I once worked over 24 hours without sleep.''

If you don''t work for yourself that simply makes you an idiot.

[Guest]

Really King Canary?

I work for a small software company and have written software that is used by some very large multi-national companies. On a handful of occassions over the last couple of years I have had to do similar to Paul, and work in excess of 24 hours in a session, and >80 hours per week (inc weekends) to deliver and/or support certain projects across the globe.

I get compensated well for what I do, but the alternative is that we lose contracts, and therfore I (and other staff) don''t get paid and/or lose jobs. It amazing what a motivator it can be when your salary is not guaranteed by the tax payer.

I would suggest this is not all that uncommon in the private sector. I personally wouldn''t change it, but if I wanted to, I''d probably just get another job.