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Parma Ham's gone mouldy

Why Naismith plays (and Redmond doesn't)

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The reason that Naismith plays is not dissimilar to why Russell Martin is regularly selected at centre back in the premier league by managers.

It is essentially because of the type of player that Naismith naturally is and the characteristics of the preferred centre forward Mbokani.

Mbokani is a dangerous, central-focused target player, who has great ability at taking the ball in and protecting it, whilst also winning a high percentage of aerial balls. He is also very awkward to get hold of for a defence, meaning that the defending side win very few balls cleanly against him. This in turn means he creates a great deal of second ball opportunities near his playing sphere regardless whether he wins the ball or not.

In the Premier League it is a huge tactical risk not to operate with three players occupying the central midfield space, typically in a pyramid shape. The 10 role needs to perform this. Naismith or Wes are the obvious choices for this.

However, because of the characteristics of Mbokani, he is very unlikely to run in behind the defence. This will allow opposition defences to hold a high line and compress the play, restricting midfield space and allowing them to oppress us, unless we offer a threat in behind and lateral movement into the wider areas from the centre of the field outwards.

Thus because of playing Mbokani the number 10 must be the front pivot of the pyramid, move into wider areas from central, offer runs in behind the defence, perhaps linking to flick ons, offering a short outlet to the central midfield pair and equally get around Mbokani for second ball.

This a hugely tactical role that requires a player with all of those multiple skills. It requires a great deal of running off the ball and will frequently be unrewarding, particularly when balls into Mbokani are imperfect. It is crucial that such a player have shooting skills as they are expected to score a good amount of goals. In the first half it can be clearly noted that Naismith linked the play right across the pitch, plus movement in towards Mbokani, into channel areas plus a desire and intention to get in behind. Unfortunately Mbokani was well shackled by Kaboul and the gameplan falls down.

The definition above does not apply to Wes. He does some of the things - linking midfield, dropping deep and offering options - but these skills might be expected to bring wider players into the game, even allow central midfield players to go beyond him.

We don''t want this at the top level - particularly not in the first half of games - because we don''t really want those players making those runs forward. The equation is that it exposes our defence and makes conceding a goal more likely than scoring one.

Remember that just because you increase your chance of scoring by 20% by opening the game - super in the championship if you have better players overall or are against defending sides with flaws - if you concurrently increase your chances of conceding by 30% you have tactically "got worse" and increased your chances of losing.....despite the fans being excited and delighted. This is the reality of the Premier League for Norwich.

I am afraid the uncomfortable truth of yesterday''s game was that we did change to attack more. In doing so we exposed our central midfield, our full backs and and out central defenders. Compact opposition with pace on the break, then turned a 1-0 deficit into a 3-0 defeat in classic counter-attack / over-commit fashion.

Whilst terribly uncomfortable it is entirely possible that on such occasions, retaining a closed shape, negating risks and playing for set pieces, a moment of magic, or a refereeing decision is better odds.

That''s why Naismith is chosen ahead of Wes and why Jarvis is chosen ahead of Redmond.

Parma

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Thats fair enough Parma and i get what youre saying. But for it to be an advantage to play Naismith, surely he has to perform?

I would have absolutely no problem us playing Naismith over any of our players if he were performing. But he''s not. His debut and the game against Newcastle are the only two where hes accomplished and the ''natural'' features of him as a player has looked an advantage. Even in that game Hoolahan played just as well.

If Naismith is still adjusting or gaining fitness then thats fine but we don''t have the time in this run in to wait for that. Especially when we have players effective in his position available.

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[quote user="Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd"]😳😳😳😳😳🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄😳😳😳😳😳😳😳

As usual[/quote]

What does that actually mean?

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People can waffle it out as much as they want but Norwich City will miss Redmond more than it will miss Naismith or Jarvis.

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GJP wrote; People can waffle it out as much as they want but Norwich City will miss Redmond more than it will miss Naismith or Jarvis.

Absolutely, even with his wayward passing at times, Redmond is a talent, and if he is to go this summer it will be a huge loss.

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Redmond should start every game at least he does try , As for Naismith another £8 million down the drain added to the list of poor signing by the manager. Naismith played 10 games for Everton this season and scored 3 goals all in one match.

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[quote user="daly"]Redmond should start every game at least he does try , As for Naismith another £8 million down the drain added to the list of poor signing by the manager. Naismith played 10 games for Everton this season and scored 3 goals all in one match.[/quote]How long do you plan on moping from thread to thread, tripping over your bottom lip?Just today, or are you in for the long haul?

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I agree totally about Naismith- I''ve mentioned before he suits Mbokani and Wes isn''t good enough any more to build a team and style around him like he needs.

However I don''t see how this relates to Redmond. I''ve seen lots of people say that Jarvis offers better cover/shape than Redmond but I just don''t see it. He''s too often drifting into the middle and isn''t quick enough to get back and help out if he gets caught out. If you look at the penalty he doesn''t even make it back into the picture before Wisdom gives the penalty away. He doesn''t offer much going forward and I don''t see this added defensive stability he is supposed to bring.

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daly wrote:

Redmond should start every game at least he does try , As for Naismith another £8 million down the drain added to the list of poor signing by the manager. Naismith played 10 games for Everton this season and scored 3 goals all in one match.

How long do you plan on moping from thread to thread, tripping over your bottom lip?

Just today, or are you in for the long haul?

MORTY

DO YOU GET A KICK OUT OF PUTTING PEOPLE DOWN FOR EVERY REMARK ANYONE MAKES .

YOU''RE SICK

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In another thread I suggested Howson in the Naismith role, with another midfielder in behind.

I wonder if Jerome could play the number 10 role? He is strong and a tireless runner, and would be a goal threat. Not as skilful, but he could move up to 442 without making a substitution.

I hope we go 5 at the back against Arsenal, and play on the break.

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Jerome would be terrible in that role, touch is far too poor. his only role is a late battering ram for when we''re humping it long.

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Naismith plays because a third rate manager spunked £8 million plus on him , he has been worse than s hit and the one good thing about his signing is the release clause that will see him leave the club in double quick time this summer . As for Morty , you really do need to grow up your hardly a teenager try spending less than 20 hours a day trying to be Mr Big on a messageboard you come across as a prize (unt  man .

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The idea of an attacking midfielder running onto and beyond the single target man would work beautifully in our formation, if only we had that player.
If Naismith doesn''t sort himself out then Howson would be worth a go, but then we need to bring Tettey alongside O''Neil and I''m not sure that strengthens us overall.

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[quote user="CanaryOne"]Naismith plays because a third rate manager spunked £8 million plus on him , he has been worse than s hit and the one good thing about his signing is the release clause that will see him leave the club in double quick time this summer . As for Morty , you really do need to grow up your hardly a teenager try spending less than 20 hours a day trying to be Mr Big on a messageboard you come across as a prize (unt  man .[/quote]Well done for adding to the football debate, your eloquent words are a joy to read.

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Morty you are starting to become a bit ''bor''-ing with the petulance.
As for the OP, I think Redmond has actually started to show that positional sense that you''re on about Parma, he was the only one that found any space for a decent shot yesterday. I actually think Redmond would be better as a CAM than a winger as i feel he doesn''t have the final ball for the cross, BUT he has shown this season that his shooting is better and the central position involves more shooting opportunities.
 

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[quote user="YorkshirePudding"]Morty you are starting to become a bit ''bor''-ing with the petulance.
As for the OP, I think Redmond has actually started to show that positional sense that you''re on about Parma, he was the only one that found any space for a decent shot yesterday. I actually think Redmond would be better as a CAM than a winger as i feel he doesn''t have the final ball for the cross, BUT he has shown this season that his shooting is better and the central position involves more shooting opportunities.
 
[/quote]I''m just bored of the whining bitches that crawl out of the woodwork with their misery and "I told you so''s"You''ll just have to deal with it I''m afraid.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="YorkshirePudding"]Morty you are starting to become a bit ''bor''-ing with the petulance.
As for the OP, I think Redmond has actually started to show that positional sense that you''re on about Parma, he was the only one that found any space for a decent shot yesterday. I actually think Redmond would be better as a CAM than a winger as i feel he doesn''t have the final ball for the cross, BUT he has shown this season that his shooting is better and the central position involves more shooting opportunities.
 
[/quote]I''m just bored of the whining bitches that crawl out of the woodwork with their misery and "I told you so''s"You''ll just have to deal with it I''m afraid.[/quote]
Do you not think it''s kinda natural that people have more to say when they''re angry/disappointed than when they''re content. 
It''s ingrained into us as a species, and particularly as a nation, I''m afraid

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[quote user="YorkshirePudding"][quote user="morty"][quote user="YorkshirePudding"]Morty you are starting to become a bit ''bor''-ing with the petulance.
As for the OP, I think Redmond has actually started to show that positional sense that you''re on about Parma, he was the only one that found any space for a decent shot yesterday. I actually think Redmond would be better as a CAM than a winger as i feel he doesn''t have the final ball for the cross, BUT he has shown this season that his shooting is better and the central position involves more shooting opportunities.
 
[/quote]I''m just bored of the whining bitches that crawl out of the woodwork with their misery and "I told you so''s"You''ll just have to deal with it I''m afraid.[/quote]
Do you not think it''s kinda natural that people have more to say when they''re angry/disappointed than when they''re content. 
It''s ingrained into us as a species, and particularly as a nation, I''m afraid
[/quote]I have absolutely no issue with reasoned points. Calm logical debate based on facts and intelligent observation.It gets very boring when people pout like little girls who have lost their favourite dolly, after every single time we lose. I give a lot more respect to people who are here, win or lose, who genuinely care about their football club, and have the decency to give praise when its due.I seriously wonder how some of them get through the working week.

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I can fully see the argument for Naismith, but as for not playing Redmond I''m afraid I don''t get that.

Yes I appreciate he makes us defensively weaker and you have to balance that against what he brings in attack, but for me apart from the worldy effort from Ollsen he was the only one that really looked like scoring yesterday. There is also the fact that the opposition are afraid of him and he disrupts their defence, on balance he surely has to play from the start.

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Yorkshire, Vanwink I fully accept that there is merit in your arguments.

I am not advocating or endorsing anything, nor am I an apologist for Neil, though on many threads talk of "clueless..." and similar in reference to the Manager is simply wrong. As with Hughton, Adams, Lambert et al there is value in trying to show the thought processes behind decisions. Showing how they are far from "clueless" or come up with on a beer mat down the pub.

If you would like an opinion I have advocated Redmond as a number 10. Even in the Championship our right side was a liability and we did not romp away with the Championship.

Our lack of pace and threat in behind defenders, particularly with a relatively immobile centrally-focused forward (who in my view does not drive into the box as dynamically as he should), leaves with a possession-game overload theory from deep, but without genuine threat.

In the current Premier League it can be viewed that teams that attack lose and teams that sit back and counter with pace win. Chelsea, Manchester United and even Manchester City have suffered from this expectation to drive forward, make the game and win.

If they cannot do it with their players, why on earth should we be able to?

Parma

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Redmond should definitely play instead of Jarvis, he always has at least one moment of magic in him. I think Naismith does care and does put the effort in, yes yesterday wasn''t his best performance but we were poor all over, sadly.

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my 5 cents...

Naismith play imo because is new player and we pay so much for him and same time he show not that far that is much better player from what we see with yellow shirt.

Klose also look piss poor first 4-5 games but then become key player by far for us.

Redmond was on fire just before his injury then no influence when come as sub after come back.

Jarvis is much more solid in defence and possibly that is the key to be first choice last games but he added nothing in attack so is pointless to use him as a attacking option.

May be better question is why Wes at home is not first choice than Naismith but probably answer is because not offer enough defensively once more.

When score is bad always will be why not play one than other players etc .

We have not lucky enough to win this game against poor opposition but same time no play shine to decided this one as Mbokani and Klose against Newcastle.

we so bad away so no big hopes to collect enough pts but still 12 pts to play for !

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Parma

"If you would like an opinion I have advocated Redmond as a number 10. Even in the Championship our right side was a liability and we did not romp away with the Championship."

I think this has been discussed before and it''s certainly something I have advocated in the past.

He has been tried there, can''t remember when, but it didn''t work out, if I recall correctly because he tended to drift out wide to often.

However it is definitely worth another try and if we go down and he stays then give it a go.

He does like to run across the box and finds space there often getting off a good shot. I remember Bail scoring a goal against us at CR coming across the box, Redmond does have that in his locker.

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theory behind playing the naismith/mbokani combination is great; but if its only the second half of the baggies win that its been effective should we continue to try it?

the practical results show it simply isnt effective; one goal & no assists between them since the liverpool game, and its not as if naismith is creating chances for mbokani or the rest of the side or even opening space for the rest of the side to score.

Wes created more openings in his cameo effort yesterday than naismith in his last 3/4 appearances; and he didnt play well.

naismith isnt adding value to the team where it matters; if mbokani cant play without naismith then its not as if we will miss his goals or creativity is it; drop them both.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]theory behind playing the naismith/mbokani combination is great; but if its only the second half of the baggies win that its been effective should we continue to try it?

the practical results show it simply isnt effective; one goal & no assists between them since the liverpool game, and its not as if naismith is creating chances for mbokani or the rest of the side or even opening space for the rest of the side to score.

Wes created more openings in his cameo effort yesterday than naismith in his last 3/4 appearances
; and he didnt play well.

naismith isnt adding value to the team where it matters; if mbokani cant play without naismith then its not as if we will miss his goals or creativity is it; drop them both.[/quote]Really?

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Vanwink,

Trying to teach Redmond to adopt sensible defensive positions and hold certain strategic shapes in certain situations is I suspect far more difficult - and any failure far more likely to be exploited by the opposition - than trying to teach him to work around, beyond and into the channels as a number 10.

Failure to do all elements of the 10 role would not negate his attacking threat, nor should it overly compromise defensive team shape (the classic eight block does not require the 10 for example), so his talents are not negated at 10, but his tactical liabilities are amortised.

Lapps, I am a huge fan of Wes and would always like to have him in my side, however he doesn''t naturally shoot when presented with opportunities, he is not a natural scorer at the top level - lacking the selfish hunger to even want to score himself sometimes - plus he offers no threat behind, nor does he really drift wide into channels and stretch lines between full back and centre back.

In short, At the top level he creates the problem, but does not then really exploit it. He is a beautifully handled dagger with a blunt blade.

Parma

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I agree with Lessingham that losing Redmond would be a blow, and that Redmond looked as likely as anyone yesterday, to score, BUT he could be so much better than he is.

Redmond still frustrated me yesterday, with his positioning and making himself available for a pass. He also looked to pass the blame on for a carp pass he made.

Jarvis, Brady and Naismith haven''t offered a lot over the last couple of weeks, so Redmond should have a lot more game time than he has recently.

Whether a 10 role is where he is suited best, remains to be seen, although (again!) he frustrates me , when he is on the wing, as he doesn''t look to have a go at his opponent, even if he is faced with a unit of a CH, and 20 metres of free space beyond that. When he came on , it looked like a 10 role was where he was told to play.

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Parma, to pick up on one point about Wes. He hasn''t got a ''hammer'' of a shot in him, so perhaps playing as the next player to the CF is not he best way to play him. With Naismith (or someone else) along side him, may get the best for the team?

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