If we get relegated Alex Neil needs to be sacked

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]Most people said Lambert would go on to achieve better things. Now they slag him off and make out he wasn''t much good when he was with us. Funny thing, folk.[/quote]

I''ve not seen anyone, certainly not "most people", try to rewrite the glory of the Lambert era.  Are you sure you''re not just creating strawmen to argue against?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

I agree norfolkngood, comparing Lambert''s first prem season to this is no contest. He definitely performed better than Neil.

Although would dispute that the overall quality of the premier league (west ham, southampton, stoke, leicester etc) has significantly improved, look at players like Shaqiri, Payet, Tadic, Defoe, Townsend, Sigurdsson all playing for midtable/relegation clubs. Certainly much more quality than of 4/5 years ago.

Anyway, just saying Lambert and Howe have done better (which they have) as a reason to sack Neil is pretty childish really. You can''t just name a better performance of a manager as a legitimate reason for sacking someone....otherwise every top half team would have to sack there manager because, look at Leicester.

How many managers would realistically have performed better than Neil this season? If you look at our team on paper I''d expect us to finish around 18-19th, right where we are now. Do you think we are better than that? Do you think we have a squad with players that can compete with those listed above?

He did a great job with us last season, and there''s no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he won''t continue his superb championship form.

[Canary Warffler 0]

The highs and lows of a manager! One minute AN is the great new thing on the block and now a newly promoted team (yes quote Watford & B’mouth to me) with 2 games to go are in with a shout of staying in the Premier League – slim I admit but what did we expect?!

He’s also been let down: O’Neils stupid challenge against Stoke, the team bot shutting out Liverpool whilst apparently cruising, Ighalo bullying the hell out of Bassong away at Watford, Bassong in general…

AN has tactically been naïve at times this season or just not attacked teams we should have: Villa away, Sunderland at home, Crystal Palace – all quite recent!

He’s 34, still learning and needs to be given a chance to develop. Who is out there who will bring magical mid-table Premier League security, a good cup run and a sniff at Europe? Or are we dreaming like Leicester fans once did…

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="Canary Warffler"]AN has tactically been naïve at times this season or just not attacked teams we should have: Villa away, Sunderland at home, Crystal Palace – all quite recent![/quote]

I''m going to assume you didn''t see that actual match.

[Canary Warffler 0]

Jarvis looked unfit and Naismith had space but didn''t influence the game in the same way Wes would have. We had opportunities but they lack clear direction. The Mbokani battering ram isn''t a goal machine. I''d prefer our chances with Jerome''s finishing finesse...

[morty 0]

[quote user="Canary Warffler"]Jarvis looked unfit and Naismith had space but didn''t influence the game in the same way Wes would have. We had opportunities but they lack clear direction. The Mbokani battering ram isn''t a goal machine. I''d prefer our chances with Jerome''s finishing finesse...[/quote]You own me a new irony meter....

[norfolkngood 1,086]

I agree alot what you say makes sense but my opinion is he is not the man to rebuild

here are some of my gripes

his signings have not been great , now next season is a massive year we have a lot of deadwood to get rid of or sell loan players going back

the recruitment next year is so important for the future build a team that IF we go on to get back up we dont need wholesale changes next time we are in the premiership

in my opinion what we have to do is get players in that fit the team not just fill a position ( like he has 4 RB''s this year )

i do not think he and his coaches improve players redmond has gone backwards in fact i struggle to find a player who has improved ,

we dont have energy fitness levels of other teams

we have no system no style

now i didnt think we would be to much higher than where we are maybe just outside bottom 3

but i thought AN would have kept his style high pressing system that got him where he is today

just seems he is not in total control of the team when they are on the field i just feel something needs changing

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

How do you know if a player could improve ? You could coach me every day for a year but I''ll never be very good

[norfolkngood 1,086]

How do you know if a player could improve ? You could coach me every day for a year but I''ll never be very good

better sack all the coaches then frank no point trying to improve players just let them get on with it at colney

run round the pitch a few times to get fit lads

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Fair enough norfolkngood, personally don''t hold him fully accountable for signings, we''ve had about 6 poor transfer windows in a row. It''s the recruiting team that needs replacing if anyone!

I think Redmond has been good this season, certainly one of our best attackers, people expect too much from him IMO. Definitely harsh to say he''s gone backwards! Our top goal scorer?!

Maybe you''re right, he''s certainly been far from flawless this season. But I still see the team wanting to win for him every week and I still see him finding a winning formula in the championship next season if we go down.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

well now Tony Spearing is on the recruitment it might improve didnt do to badly at west brom

[Row D Seat 7 0]

Surely this thread is redundant now, considering the other thread showing about 90% of fans on here wanting AN to stay whatever league we''re in next season...

[Essjayess 307]

When we are relegated next week, looking purely at Alex Neil''s performance on a match basis only, the players he picked pre match, the subs bench, his substitutions during matches, his set up formations etc etc, he has fallen woefully short of Premier standard, indeed the Prem has brutally and clearly showed his inexperience for all to see. On that alone, he should be sacked.But being a manager is not just that alone, it of course involves  much much more. Also, thinking ahead to the close season, we need a good old clear out, also new ones to come in to the club. AN has now had a season and a half with these players, no other manager would know them better than he, so it makes sense to keep him in charge, make an immediate start as soon as the last Prem match is done, to prepare for the Championship. Indeed, i think how he handles the 2 or 3 months  before the new season starts, could well be more important then the first 2 or 3 months of the new season itself.So, while i have been anything but impressed by his first Premier season in charge, there are enough factors in play to say keep him on, and unless the first half of the new season turns calamitous, keep him  right thru the next season.

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

[quote user="norfolkngood"]How do you know if a player could improve ? You could coach me every day for a year but I''ll never be very good

better sack all the coaches then frank no point trying to improve players just let them get on with it at colney

run round the pitch a few times to get fit lads[/quote]

So if you continuously coach a league 2 player they''ll all become Messi or Ronaldo ? At some point you have to realise a player isn''t going to get any better, you either keep them or move them on

[Tumbleweed 106]

I have been frequently thinking of that old cliché- there is no sentiment in football- recently.

Just how much leeway does AN get for taking us up through the Play Offs? That was possibly my greatest single match experience with NCFC in over 40 years. And to beat you know who in the semis made it even more memorable. But it was one game. The emotion of that day should not cloud objective assessment of AN''s tenure thereafter, and I agree with most of what Essjayess and norfolkngood have said about AN''s performance since.

Some people have said that he deserves more time, he has somehow racked up credit because of promotion. Yet Neil Adams was sacked when promotion looked a long way off, and with the squad we had many believed that promotion was in fact par for the course. So just how much time has AN accrued as a result of that one day out? Why does our club and all around it seem to have this sentimental view that because of that one day out we will tolerate under performance?

Let us also not forget that although that play off victory was terrific, we had at earlier stages blown our chances of automatic promotion.

Finally, there has been talk of AN being one of the country''s brightest young managers and hopes for the future. What is this based on? That day at Wembley? Surely someone cannot be such a star as a result of a one off match? What other evidence is there to go against all those points highlighted by the two posters I have mentioned which rather suggest that this is more illusion than reality.

So the cliché seems unfounded. There is sentiment in football. It sits smack bang at NCFC. At a managerial level we have seen it with Worthington and Hughton who were persisted with too long, and arguably in the appointments of Grant, Gunn and Adams where there seemed some sort of romantic hope that these internal promotions would somehow work out. Yet our very own managers some of whom benefit from this sentiment themselves show no mercy towards players often seemingly to the detriment of the team- e.g Worthy with Roberts and Malky and then Roeder with Hux.

Is this not a major contributing factor to our inability to establish ourselves as a top flight club in the last 20 years? I fear our club is driven too much by sentiment and does not show the hard headed attitude required for long term success. I have no doubt that we will persist with Alex Neil come what may. That it seems to be through sentiment and hope rather than tangible performance is disappointing.

[Ray 111]

If the CEO of a company with a turnover approaching £100m, employed a relatively inexperienced 18 year old* to run the one department in the company that the entire business revolved around, and after a flash of success, that 18 year old transpired to dramatically reduce the turnover, standing and public perception of the company, I wonder who would be considered to be the failure, the 18 year old or the appointor? I suspect both but first and foremost surely it would be the appointor of the 18 year old.

* I use 18 year old to represent someone who has just left school, someone who may have all the academic knowledge required but none of the ''nous'' required to fulfil such a role. AN had effectively just left school in managerial terms.

If this company was a plc then there would probably be many shareholders calling for the CEO''s head, or the CEO, if he/she had anything about them, would quite possibly walk away themselves and of course in Japan they may even fall on their own sword.

Do I expect that to happen at NCFC, incredibly unlikely, I have a feeling AN will be kept on, as letting him go would be an admission of another failed appointment and given our recent record with ''risky'' (and cheap) appointments the appointor would therefore also be in the firing line.

We have majority shareholders (owners) who may well have been the prime appointors, although I suspect not, so they will not ''sack'' themselves, therefore I wait with bated breath to see what actions, if any, are taken should we go down. If we stay up then any actions that may have been taken due to relegation may be put on hold, but in my eyes survival is almost irrelevant. There needs to be a root and branch review and any diseased elements eliminated.

None of this means I am calling for the head of anyone in the club, that would be the job of those conducting the review and I would suggest they are from outside the club.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Essjayess, you''ve been proudly mouthing off all season how we will finish on 33 points, yet want AN sacked despite him being on course to achieve exactly that - if not probably more. How can you justify that?

Tumbleweed, there''s more to it than the play off final, our form was exceptional all the way through from the start of his tenure. There''s nothing sentimental in keeping him to the start of next season to see if he can recreate that, it''s not anywhere close to the same point that it got to with Hughton and Worthington, where''s the comparison there? Don''t recall chants of ''AN out'' at any game so far under him and 90% of the fans want him in for next season, yeah that''s pure sentimentality there!

Where would you expect our squad to finish (on paper) in the prem?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Christ Ray we''ve not been that bad

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

How can you say he''s reduced the standpoint, turnover etc etc when he was the one who got us there in the first place! The odds were certainly against us to do that when he did finally arrive as well.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

[quote user="Ray"]If this company was a plc then there would probably be many shareholders calling for the CEO''s head, or the CEO, if he/she had anything about them, would quite possibly walk away themselves and of course in Japan they may even fall on their own sword.

Do I expect that to happen at NCFC, incredibly unlikely[/quote]After his ''I would prefer death to relegation'' rhetoric two years ago, I would expect nothing less that McNally''s ritualistic suicide by running himself through with a katana blade if we are to go down again.

[Mr Sausage 0]

Ray makes an excellent point about an outside source reviewing the season

We should get some successful former manager to review the strategy and its execution. Before any one asks I would approach Sir Alex Ferguson to do the review

Only then can we have confidence that lessons have been learned and the appropriate action if any is carried out

[GJP 79]

Ray, we have disagreed on a couple of things in the past but I don''t think you are barking up the wrong tree on this.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="Ray"]If the CEO of a company with a turnover approaching £100m, employed a relatively inexperienced 18 year old* to run the one department in the company that the entire business revolved around, and after a flash of success, that 18 year old transpired to dramatically reduce the turnover, standing and public perception of the company, I wonder who would be considered to be the failure, the 18 year old or the appointor? I suspect both but first and foremost surely it would be the appointor of the 18 year old.

* I use 18 year old to represent someone who has just left school, someone who may have all the academic knowledge required but none of the ''nous'' required to fulfil such a role. AN had effectively just left school in managerial terms.

If this company was a plc then there would probably be many shareholders calling for the CEO''s head, or the CEO, if he/she had anything about them, would quite possibly walk away themselves and of course in Japan they may even fall on their own sword.

Do I expect that to happen at NCFC, incredibly unlikely, I have a feeling AN will be kept on, as letting him go would be an admission of another failed appointment and given our recent record with ''risky'' (and cheap) appointments the appointor would therefore also be in the firing line.

We have majority shareholders (owners) who may well have been the prime appointors, although I suspect not, so they will not ''sack'' themselves, therefore I wait with bated breath to see what actions, if any, are taken should we go down. If we stay up then any actions that may have been taken due to relegation may be put on hold, but in my eyes survival is almost irrelevant. There needs to be a root and branch review and any diseased elements eliminated.

None of this means I am calling for the head of anyone in the club, that would be the job of those conducting the review and I would suggest they are from outside the club.[/quote]A nerd writes: Actually, Ray, we are a plc! Just not a listed plc with a yo-yoing share price...More seriously, recent posts of yours (such as this) have hinted at serious problems at Carrow Road and Colney ("diseased elements" looks like you think there definitely are such) but at the same time you have downplayed the content as mere "musings".Since past posts have suggested some inside knowledge I am unsure how to take this and other recent posts. As in-the-know hints or entirely theoretical what-if musings. There is no need to answer - I am just musing about your musings...[:D][;)][:D]

[Ray 111]

Walt kills mike - "Christ Ray we''ve not been that bad"

Possibly not, but how much better could it have been? It appears we are bottom''ish of most leagues re spending, players wages, etc. and currently 19th out of 20 in the league that really matters, yet we are 7th when it comes to CEO salary, which IMO tells a story, insomuch it may be we (our CEO) are underperforming for the money we are paying, or we are not getting enough bang for our buck. This IMO could be reviewed, the review of course could come to the conclusion that everything in the garden is rosy and that we need to be 7th in the CEO Salary League to get anywhere near 19th in the leage that matters.

There are, I sincerely hope, internal reviews conducted on a regular basis, however at times an external review can reveal so much, simply because the reviewers are not embroiled within the club, or indeed any business worth its salt.

Finances are reviewed every year by an external party (audits), so maybe an audit of every aspect of the business would be worthwhile.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Mr Sausage "]Ray makes an excellent point about an outside source reviewing the season We should get some successful former manager to review the strategy and its execution. Before any one asks I would approach Sir Alex Ferguson to do the review Only then can we have confidence that lessons have been learned and the appropriate action if any is carried out[/quote]

 

We could call him Captain Hindsight, the Infallible Man.

 

Would it be better to get them to critique the strategy at the start of the season and then periodically during the season?

 

 

[Ray 111]

Purple, the plc thing was a known but I inadvertantly missed out the word ''listed'' thanks for raising the point and making it clear.

As for everything else, I leave you to your musings.

[Essjayess 307]

[quote user="Walt kills mike"]Essjayess, you''ve been proudly mouthing off all season how we will finish on 33 points, yet want AN sacked despite him being on course to achieve exactly that - if not probably more. How can you justify that?

Tumbleweed, there''s more to it than the play off final, our form was exceptional all the way through from the start of his tenure. There''s nothing sentimental in keeping him to the start of next season to see if he can recreate that, it''s not anywhere close to the same point that it got to with Hughton and Worthington, where''s the comparison there? Don''t recall chants of ''AN out'' at any game so far under him and 90% of the fans want him in for next season, yeah that''s pure sentimentality there!

Where would you expect our squad to finish (on paper) in the prem?[/quote]How strange, i thought my post was quite clear about my opinion, saying if he was judged on match days this season alone then yes, he should be sacked, and yes the 33 points i have mentioned often, but not proudly, City already haven been relegated on that total twice in the past decade or so. I would have loved City to have been  nicely higher than 40, but well, they are not.Absolutely  keep him as manager, that is what i said in my last post, because being a manager is a lot more than just what happens on a match day.

[Ray 111]

Essjayess,

I agree with your point re being a manager is much more than just what happens on match day, however, it is the match day by which all managers are judged.

That said if everything else was going supremely and we were heading in the right direction medium term, then there may of course be a very strong argument to stick with what we''ve got rather than upset the apple cart and take a gamble.

Currently I am neutral on the topic of sticking or twisting, no matter where we end up.

[Tumbleweed 106]

It is also the match day which for the vast majority of us is the only tangible evidence of performance we see.

As I stated above, in my opinion we (club and fans) seem more tolerant of under-performance than other clubs. I believe this is a factor in our inability to establish ourselves at the top level over the last few attempts.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

How many pundits/other fans think that we are under-performing?