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Tommo

Who's up for the fight?

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Neil will be sitting down with the players this week to assess who is up for the fight but what''s your views on who is? I''m thinking the following :-

Klose, Redmond, Brady, Howson - up for it but will have a number of suitors

Tettey, mulumbu, Van Wolf, Bassong- not up for the champ fight so move on

This leaves squad of

Ruddy/Rudd

Martin

Bennett

Olsson/ Toffolo

Dorrans

Jarvis

Murphys

VOO

Andreu

Hoolahan

O''Neill (new contract)

Maddison

Thompson

Jerome

Lafferty

So really do need to strengthen CB,RB,CM and CF positions potentially another winger as well!

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There is also Whittaker who I would suspect is leaving on a free this summer. Morris potentially could play back up striker but might be best him having another season out on loan

Pinto- stay

Naismith - stay

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I suspect the following will depart:

Ruddy, Whittaker, Pinto, Olsson, Klose, Tettey, Howson, Naismith, Brady, Redmond, Lafferty, O''Neil, RvW, all loanees

Potential August starting 11:

Rudd

Martin

Bassong

Bennett

Toffolo

Dorrans

Mulumbu

Jarvis

Murphy

Wes

Jerome

Plenty of money in the bank to mitigate championship wages and lots for us to clap and be thankful for.

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Certainly hope all those don''t depart!

Think we will keep Pinto, Naismith and O''Neil. Possibly Olsson too.

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How do you know the players mentioned aren''t ''up for the fight?'' e.g. Tettey and Bassong; they were pivotal in getting us up.

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I''m up for the fight!

 

Miggo, I don''t think Highland was ansering the OP. Just posting to his own agenda. We could start a new thread asking people to list who will be gone by 1st Sept and pledging a fiver to our DS guys for every one listed that stays...

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Perhaps what happened last time might be a guide.We released Nash and Fox, and sold Snodgrass, Pilkington, Fer and Surman for (very roughly) around £17m.We brought in nine players. O''Neil and Cuellar were free but the other seven - Grabban, Lafferty, Jerome, McGrandles, Odjidja-Ofoe, Miquel and Thompson - all cost transfer fees, and in some cases substantial ones.So we acquired more players than we let lost, and certainly spent a considerable amount of the money we received. We also hardly reduced our spending on wages, despite our income dropping sharply, although the wage figure may have included bonuses dependant on getting straight back up.

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Given Brady''s hasty exit from Hull I think we may assume he isn''t.

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Those that will most likely stay;

GK

Ruddy

Rudd

LB

Olsson

Toffolo

RB

Martin

Pinto?

CB

Bennett

Bassong

CM

Tettey

Howson

Dorrans

O''Neil

McGrandles

Thompson

LM

Jarvis

Murphy

RM

Vadis

Murphy

AM

Hoolahan

Maddison

CF

Jerome

Loza

Morris

Those that''ll probably be poached;

Brady

Klose

Redmond

Those likely to leave;

Whittaker

Naismith

Mulumbu (what a massively overhyped signing!)

Andreu

Lafferty (although we currently only have one registered striker aside of Morris, so...)

Turner

Wolfwinkel

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nutty nigel wrote the following post at 14/05/2016 10:59 AM:Miggo, I don''t think Highland was ansering the OP.

------------------

Although I was responding to the OP, take your point about Highland certainly :)

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Perhaps what happened last time might be a guide.

We released Nash and Fox, and sold Snodgrass, Pilkington, Fer and Surman for (very roughly) around £17m.

We brought in nine players. O''Neil and Cuellar were free but the other seven - Grabban, Lafferty, Jerome, McGrandles, Odjidja-Ofoe, Miquel and Thompson - all cost transfer fees, and in some cases substantial ones.

So we acquired more players than we let lost, and certainly spent a considerable amount of the money we received. We also hardly reduced our spending on wages, despite our income dropping sharply, although the wage figure may have included bonuses dependant on getting straight back up.

[/quote]

It does include promotion bonuses.  The bonus figure would have been significant , but equally we see that the much discussed "relegation clauses" aren''t quite as dependable as we might hope.

Perhaps another question to be asked, isn''t so much as who''s up for the fight, but rather who is now going to undertake the negotiations to keep those players we want and try and buy others. The relegation clauses are of course fine if you can impose them. Last time players (lets take a purely random example of Ruddy )  that had Premier league interest certainly didn''t see their wages fall by much , if indeed anything. in fact  There are other examples too. It takes money to keep a squad together.

 

And this of course was McNallys baby. This was what he did.  All lines in the football club deferred to DN when it came to the art of Agent negotiation. And we now don''t have that role in place. Anyone thinking that McNally''s departure was either wished for , or expected , would presumably also believe that if so , we would have someone in place right now talking to players Agents,  at what is a key time of the season. We haven''t. Steve Stone isn''t going to do this, neither is Ed Balls. And you can argue that DN had a reputation that was beginning to work against us (just ask Bradley Johnsons agent)

Agents start the process early. who can forget the "don''t get injured" no show of Damian Francis at Fulham. Agents will be busy now, and would have been for weeks. Don''t let the "we all go on holiday" in June fool you. Players do . Agents don''t.

  

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[quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Perhaps what happened last time might be a guide.We released Nash and Fox, and sold Snodgrass, Pilkington, Fer and Surman for (very roughly) around £17m.We brought in nine players. O''Neil and Cuellar were free but the other seven - Grabban, Lafferty, Jerome, McGrandles, Odjidja-Ofoe, Miquel and Thompson - all cost transfer fees, and in some cases substantial ones.So we acquired more players than we let lost, and certainly spent a considerable amount of the money we received. We also hardly reduced our spending on wages, despite our income dropping sharply, although the wage figure may have included bonuses dependant on getting straight back up.[/quote]

It does include promotion bonuses.  The bonus figure would have been significant , but equally we see that the much discussed "relegation clauses" aren''t quite as dependable as we might hope.

Perhaps another question to be asked, isn''t so much as who''s up for the fight, but rather who is now going to undertake the negotiations to keep those players we want and try and buy others. The relegation clauses are of course fine if you can impose them. Last time players (lets take a purely random example of Ruddy )  that had Premier league interest certainly didn''t see their wages fall by much , if indeed anything. in fact  There are other examples too. It takes money to keep a squad together.

 

And this of course was McNallys baby. This was what he did.  All lines in the football club deferred to DN when it came to the art of Agent negotiation. And we now don''t have that role in place. Anyone thinking that McNally''s departure was either wished for , or expected , would presumably also believe that if so , we would have someone in place right now talking to players Agents,  at what is a key time of the season. We haven''t. Steve Stone isn''t going to do this, neither is Ed Balls. And you can argue that DN had a reputation that was beginning to work against us (just ask Bradley Johnsons agent)

Agents start the process early. who can forget the "don''t get injured" no show of Damian Francis at Fulham. Agents will be busy now, and would have been for weeks. Don''t let the "we all go on holiday" in June fool you. Players do . Agents don''t.

  

[/quote]GPB, I am not saying it is, but that looks like a contradiction, or if not then it is rather surprising. If a substantial part of the overall wage bill last season was made up of promotion bonuses the basic wages must have fallen considerably, since the overall wage bill was around £3m lower than the season before, when there were no bonuses, because of relegation.But if the likes of Ruddy were hardly - if at all -  having their basic wage reduced then the implication is that the other players suffered severe cuts, producing a two-tier them and us squad. Is that what happened?

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[quote user="Highland Canary"]I suspect the following will depart:

Ruddy, Whittaker, Pinto, Olsson, Klose, Tettey, Howson, Naismith, Brady, Redmond, Lafferty, O''Neil, RvW, all loanees

Potential August starting 11:

Rudd

Martin

Bassong

Bennett

Toffolo

Dorrans

Mulumbu

Jarvis

Murphy

Wes

Jerome

Plenty of money in the bank to mitigate championship wages and lots for us to clap and be thankful for.[/quote]

No way we will lose all of those players. Just because players may have "suitors" does not mean they will leave.

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How can people tell?

Brady has been poor 2nd half - may well not have much interest.

My guess is that we''ll sell Klose and Redmond possibly Naismith. Less changes than last time we went down. We start with a quality Champ striker in Jerome unlike last time.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="Highland Canary"]I suspect the following will depart:

Ruddy, Whittaker, Pinto, Olsson, Klose, Tettey, Howson, Naismith, Brady, Redmond, Lafferty, O''Neil, RvW, all loanees

Potential August starting 11:

Rudd

Martin

Bassong

Bennett

Toffolo

Dorrans

Mulumbu

Jarvis

Murphy

Wes

Jerome

Plenty of money in the bank to mitigate championship wages and lots for us to clap and be thankful for.[/quote]

No way we will lose all of those players. Just because players may have "suitors" does not mean they will leave.[/quote]

Further to Purples post above last time is indeed likely to be a guide. Our wage bill is likely to be slightly higher than when we last came down but our parachute payments will be circa £10m more so if anything we should be better placed than before financially. I expect us to sell Redmond and maybe one more for circa £15m and any other sales will be to enable purchases or players who we have decided need to move on. For me, looking at the balance of the squad and the challenge ahead the priorities to retain should be Klose, Howson, Olsson and Tettey.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Perhaps what happened last time might be a guide.

We released Nash and Fox, and sold Snodgrass, Pilkington, Fer and Surman for (very roughly) around £17m.

We brought in nine players. O''Neil and Cuellar were free but the other seven - Grabban, Lafferty, Jerome, McGrandles, Odjidja-Ofoe, Miquel and Thompson - all cost transfer fees, and in some cases substantial ones.

So we acquired more players than we let lost, and certainly spent a considerable amount of the money we received. We also hardly reduced our spending on wages, despite our income dropping sharply, although the wage figure may have included bonuses dependant on getting straight back up.

[/quote]

It does include promotion bonuses.  The bonus figure would have been significant , but equally we see that the much discussed "relegation clauses" aren''t quite as dependable as we might hope.

Perhaps another question to be asked, isn''t so much as who''s up for the fight, but rather who is now going to undertake the negotiations to keep those players we want and try and buy others. The relegation clauses are of course fine if you can impose them. Last time players (lets take a purely random example of Ruddy )  that had Premier league interest certainly didn''t see their wages fall by much , if indeed anything. in fact  There are other examples too. It takes money to keep a squad together.

 

And this of course was McNallys baby. This was what he did.  All lines in the football club deferred to DN when it came to the art of Agent negotiation. And we now don''t have that role in place. Anyone thinking that McNally''s departure was either wished for , or expected , would presumably also believe that if so , we would have someone in place right now talking to players Agents,  at what is a key time of the season. We haven''t. Steve Stone isn''t going to do this, neither is Ed Balls. And you can argue that DN had a reputation that was beginning to work against us (just ask Bradley Johnsons agent)

Agents start the process early. who can forget the "don''t get injured" no show of Damian Francis at Fulham. Agents will be busy now, and would have been for weeks. Don''t let the "we all go on holiday" in June fool you. Players do . Agents don''t.

  

[/quote]

GPB, I am not saying it is, but that looks like a contradiction, or if not then it is rather surprising. If a substantial part of the overall wage bill last season was made up of promotion bonuses the basic wages must have fallen considerably, since the overall wage bill was around £3m lower than the season before, when there were no bonuses, because of relegation.

But if the likes of Ruddy were hardly - if at all -  having their basic wage reduced then the implication is that the other players suffered severe cuts, producing a two-tier them and us squad. Is that what happened?

[/quote]

 

One issue that may (or may not!) be relevant is that the preceding years also included bonuses, so to drill in and find what happened to basic wages is very hard (impossible) from the public accounts. My other info is snippets I do know that the bonuses this year had we stayed up would have been even higher . McN favoured incentive bonuses . If we don''t go up next year , and there are no bonuses , only then will we really know what effect the relegation clauses have. I do agree that it does seem to be a contradiction but there you are. The accounts for the year we went up under Lambert included some promotion bonuses (we''re all going to Vagas) , but I think we can assume that these weren''t any where near as high as the next two years of premier league retention bonuses.  For a start I think to some extent they weren''t contractual as it didn''t seem likely at the start of the season that we were going up again. I''ve heard tales of group incentives being offered around Christmas time, but who knows. The third year the players had by now been in the prem for  a while and Mr Agent would be nudging up the salary , as indeed new players would come in on low premier league wages.  Some existing players signed new contracts.

 

So - year end 2011 Championship wages , small ish bonus.

y/e 2012 Low end Prem Wages / good bonus to stay up

y/e 2013 as above

y/e 2014 higher Prem Wages but no bonus (relegated)

y/e 2015 lower Championship wages but high bonus (the club are now contractually putting this in)

y/e/ 2016 Prem Wages , new players on highest wages club had ever paid , but no bonus.

 

Comparison is hard.

 

Please feel free to answer . I am currently studying for an exam which at my time of life is nuts. I''m bored out of my skull, hence a very much more active pinkun posting record this weekend than ever before. 

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[quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]

 

One issue that may (or may not!) be relevant is that the preceding years also included bonuses, so to drill in and find what happened to basic wages is very hard (impossible) from the public accounts. My other info is snippets I do know that the bonuses this year had we stayed up would have been even higher . McN favoured incentive bonuses . If we don''t go up next year , and there are no bonuses , only then will we really know what effect the relegation clauses have. I do agree that it does seem to be a contradiction but there you are. The accounts for the year we went up under Lambert included some promotion bonuses (we''re all going to Vagas) , but I think we can assume that these weren''t any where near as high as the next two years of premier league retention bonuses.  For a start I think to some extent they weren''t contractual as it didn''t seem likely at the start of the season that we were going up again. I''ve heard tales of group incentives being offered around Christmas time, but who knows. The third year the players had by now been in the prem for  a while and Mr Agent would be nudging up the salary , as indeed new players would come in on low premier league wages.  Some existing players signed new contracts.

 

So - year end 2011 Championship wages , small ish bonus.

y/e 2012 Low end Prem Wages / good bonus to stay up

y/e 2013 as above

y/e 2014 higher Prem Wages but no bonus (relegated)

y/e 2015 lower Championship wages but high bonus (the club are now contractually putting this in)

y/e/ 2016 Prem Wages , new players on highest wages club had ever paid , but no bonus.

 

Comparison is hard.

 

Please feel free to answer . I am currently studying for an exam which at my time of life is nuts. I''m bored out of my skull, hence a very much more active pinkun posting record this weekend than ever before. 

[/quote]GPB, happy to help with your boredom (although other posters might start complaining...). It is indeed not possible (at least it is beyond me) to work out the basic wage figure, not including bonuses, from the accounts, so what follows is full of assumptions (and a few round figures). With that in mind:In our relegation season the overall wage figure was £38m. We know that £6m of bonuses earmarked for staying up did not get paid, so if there were no other bonuses then that £38m for overall wages is probably as near as dammit also the figure for basic wages.Last season the overall wage figure was £35m, but that included bonuses for promotion, and you think they were substantial. As you say, McNally was keen on that kind of inducement. Supposing, for the sake of argument, they were as substantial as those for staying up that never got paid - ie £6m. In that case then the basic wage figure was £29m - a full £9m  or 24 per cent down on the season before.In itself that fall would not be a surprise, since income fell 44 per cent from £94m to £52m. But if so then I would remain a a bit dubious about the notion that some players (such as Ruddy) didn''t really suffer at all, while most others took a serious hit to protect the wages of that fortunate few.

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Thanks PC. Can''t argue with any of that. I do hope we have someone ready to negotiate with these Agents , I do think that is one aspect of McNally''s reign that was , mostly , to our benefit. Remember the stand off with Fry on Mackail-Smith? I think we came out of that well. Mind you, Kevin Piper had another view , so we saw the best, and the worst of DM in that one incident.

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[quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]Thanks PC. Can''t argue with any of that. I do hope we have someone ready to negotiate with these Agents , I do think that is one aspect of McNally''s reign that was , mostly , to our benefit. Remember the stand off with Fry on Mackail-Smith? I think we came out of that well. Mind you, Kevin Piper had another view , so we saw the best, and the worst of DM in that one incident.[/quote]Well, that is really rather annoying. Having on another thread pointed out the basic flaw in the bizarre claim that Tory John Major, despite having been out of office for six years, was somehow chiefly responsible for the Labour government deciding not to join the euro in 2003, I find I have no-one to argue with...[;)]

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Graham Paddons Beard"]Thanks PC. Can''t argue with any of that. I do hope we have someone ready to negotiate with these Agents , I do think that is one aspect of McNally''s reign that was , mostly , to our benefit. Remember the stand off with Fry on Mackail-Smith? I think we came out of that well. Mind you, Kevin Piper had another view , so we saw the best, and the worst of DM in that one incident.[/quote]Well, that is really rather annoying. Having on another thread pointed out the basic flaw in the bizarre claim that Tory John Major, despite having been out of office for six years, was somehow chiefly responsible for the Labour government deciding not to join the euro in 2003, I find I have no-one to argue with...[;)][/quote]

 

I could start a thread....

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