Losing our whitts

[lharman7 39]

Personally I think there''s definitely an argument to say both Martin and Whittaker are both past there best. The people that say ''but they were part of our defence in our last promotion'' are really clutching at straws and making excuses. Players abilities do degrade over time and with age.

Aside from this, do I think they both could play back up in the championship? Yes I do.

Would I rather fresh new players in those roles? Yes I do.

We are in need of a shake up but do I think it will happen? Not drastically unfortunately.

Both have been great contributors to us but imo they need to move on and we need a fresh approach!

[Indy 3,283]

Well there''s an argument for O''Neil, Bassong, Dorrans, Jerome, Wes, Jarvis, Ruddy & Mulumbu are past their best but we are not in a financial position to replace many players.

This fresh approach should have happened last year when we had the lure of premiership football.

All fans like yourself & I will probably be very dissapointed when our team takes to the field on the 6th August and will possibly line up like this:

Rudd,

Pinto, Martin, Bennett, Whitts

Howson, O''Neil, Dorrans, Jarvis

Wes,

Jerome.

Subs: Kean, Vadis, Morris, McGradles, Toffolo, Bassong, Maddison.

[Yellow Green Army 237]

If we start next season again with the same Scottish contingent in our defence then the club/board really have not learnt anything and will be asking for trouble.

There is only so much us fans can take and heading into another championship season without shaking up our defence will be dam right scandalous and insulting for the 25000 plus fans who turn up every week.

The only logical reason for retaining Whittaker even in a reserve role suggests that Martin and possibly Pinto are off. Even then I would prefer to sign a young up and coming right back from the lower leagues to fill the 2nd right back position as surely his wages would be cheaper than Whittaker''s.

Whittaker is an experienced pro and has played a lot of games at a very high level, he will still demand high wages whatever league we are in. Get rid I say. Somebody in the mould of Harry Toffolo would be ideal as a back up RB.

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="lharman7"]Personally I think there''s definitely an argument to say both Martin and Whittaker are both past there best. [/quote]

I find it impossible to disagree with this.

For me, whittaker is the cheap option to retain as a back up to pinto for right back, reliable which known limitations and strengths and allows pinto to continue to brutish british football education.

The same applies with martin; we have a squad game and if he stays while we recruit a younger starting option thats hardly mismanagment.

Secure the squad, invest where quality is needed - centre back, striker and creative midfielder - plus any departure of three key positions - klose, redmond & olsson.

[GJP 79]

For the record, I see Pinto as the man for the job now.

But some of the negative views on Whittaker are ridiculously wide of the mark. And actually, if nothing else, show a lack of respect for a player who has never hidden up in a Norwich shirt.

[CanaryOne 0]

[quote user="Indy"]Well there''s an argument for O''Neil, Bassong, Dorrans, Jerome, Wes, Jarvis, Ruddy & Mulumbu are past their best but we are not in a financial position to replace many players.

This fresh approach should have happened last year when we had the lure of premiership football.

All fans like yourself & I will probably be very dissapointed when our team takes to the field on the 6th August and will possibly line up like this:

Rudd,

Pinto, Martin, Bennett, Whitts

Howson, O''Neil, Dorrans, Jarvis

Wes,

Jerome.

Subs: Kean, Vadis, Morris, McGradles, Toffolo, Bassong, Maddison.[/quote]Hope not because that team does not make the top 6 , full of old players well past their best . Martin ,Whittaker, O''Neil, Jarvis,Jerome ,Bassong should be out of the reckoning .

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Indy wrote:

'''' I will probably be very dissapointed when our team takes to the field on the 6th August and will possibly line up like this:

Rudd,

Pinto, Martin, Bennett, Whitts

Howson, O''Neil, Dorrans, Jarvis

Wes,

Jerome.

Subs: Kean, Vadis, Morris, McGradles, Toffolo, Bassong, Maddison. ''''

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You do realise we''ll be signing players? If Howson starts RM and Whittaker LB come the start of the season I will be shocked.. Do you actually think we''d sell Ruddy and Olsson without signing a replacement?

All you''ve done is taken our prem team and remove the players you think are likely to go. Seems a slightly pointless exercise unless you''re going to list where the replacements are - if you did the same to Villa and Newcastle you''d see equally sh*t teams!

Also have a feeling that Brady will be staying with us at least till January.

[Indy 3,283]

Two fold, one I''ve listed the players likely to stay, I would hope that we do get replacements, but I''m not overly hopeful they will be any better than that team, given our budget.

And second players signed always take time to bed in, AN might prefer to go with players he knows at the start.

Of course it''s all supposition and I hope that we have more to cheer come the summer signings.

[Salopian 1]

I agree that Whittaker has no future in the Championship - we warned before he came that as a right back he was OK going forward but not good enough in defence!

Martin is clearly not up to Premiership standard, but next season we shall be in the Championship, so 12 month''s time may be the time to sell him.

I don''t know what to make of Dorrans. He has a good pedigree, but recently has been nothing like it. Unless there are special reasons, he will be only a squad player even in the Championship.

Three general comments:

1) We have invested fairly heavily in promising youngsters this season, especially midfielders. If we can develop them, one or two could well become of Premiership standard.

2) We have wasted a lot of money on buying cheap gap fillers, - players who clearly were not highly rated by their previous clubs. Did we really think that we had stand-out Premiership players for £2m or £3m?

3) It seems that for the last two seasons part of our problem in signing quality players was because scouting staff left and there was a two month delay in replacing them. This clearly has to change.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Fair enough Indy, hopefully your low expectations are rewarded with pleasant surprise when we do land a couple of decent signings!

I do agree with your point about disruption and bedding-in, but think it is more applicable to a promotion-scenario where AN would be keener to reward the successful players from last season and build on the momentum. Not to mention us being able to hold on to our best players.

Unfortunately the scenario we are actually facing involves the undoubted losing of our best players (Klose, Redmond almost certainly), as well as AN looking to freshen up his team and kill the negative momentum/mindset in the dressing room. Our budget is also fairly competitive at championship level.

With a summer for bedding in as well I''m sure we''ll see 2-3 new players in our starting line up come August.

For what its worth, something like this..

----------------------Ruddy------------------

--Pinto---Bennett----NEW CB---Olsson--

--------------Howson----Tettey-------------

----NEW RW----Hoolahan------Brady-----

-------------------Jerome--------------------

Subs:

Dorrans, Bassong, Martin, NEW ST, Naismith, O''Neil, Rudd

The above assumes we''ll keep hold of Brady, Howson and Olsson - the 3 most likely players to be cherry picked after Klose and Redmond. Here''s to hoping we can keep hold of them!

[Essjayess 307]

I repeat from my two other posts in this topic, if we hang onto the likes of Whittaker and Bassong in our defence, even as cover, even arguing that they are ok average decent Champ players, who knows how long someone like Pinto or the main defenders get crocked, we are then relying on the Whitts and Bassongs to get us thru. To many good and savvy teams in the Champs now, so if we play average , ok, decent Champ players, we get a likewise position in the division, somewhere  between 7th  to 15 th. The Burnleys, Brightons and Boros all got around the 90 point mark in the recent  season, and i can well see that kind of haul being needed again to into the promised land. If you believe we can achieve that with Whitts, Bassong etc in our defence, then youre a very optimistic type.Also, sticking with virtually the same line up of old aged players will create a traffic jam in 12 months time, if you see the amount of out of contracts this time next year i foresee one heck of a troubled scenario developing. It is why this period, the next 2 or 3 months, is so vital for the club to get rid of the under performers and the older guys, and bring in younger guys up for the fight.

[Katie Borkins 1]

Our record under Neil was P21 W14 D3 L4. Extrapolated over a season, this gives us around 100 points.

And that was with Whittaker and Bassong in the lineup.

Whittaker must be the only player in message board history who has got worse through not playing.

[Indy 3,283]

I don''t think the current squad without Klose, Howson, Brady, Ruddy, Tettey & Jerome are anything other than mid table championship standard.

We do have a lot of youngsters back who if they come good will be vital.

I''m not convinced we will be top 6, we have a team who have gone through relegation, players we all have doubts over and last AN has yet to prove himself even at this level with a team who have been relegated.

[lharman7 39]

Bor, you seem to love quoting history and then extrapolating future outcomes.

Do you really think history will repeat itself?

Players age and lose abilities. You cant argue with that surely?

[BroadstairsR 2,138]

As I see it.

With one or two obvious exceptions, the more the current squad is disrupted the less our chance of an immediate return.

It seems that Whitts. just comes into the exceptions bracket.

RVW, Lafferty, Andreu and Jarvis apart, I am a bit unsure of any of the others who would. Why I still have lingering hopes for Mulumbu probably defies logic and I would tend to want see the back of Dorrans for a few useful bob. The retention of BOTH Bassong and Bennett wouldn''t be ideal so one of these could usefully depart, assuming we can get someone better in.

We seem to have built up quite a collection of unconvincing players in terms of aiming for success next season which would seem to contradict my opening paragraph, but I would love us to pull out all the stops to retain each and everyone of the rest, as unlikely and impossible as this might be.

We would still need some decent acquisitions, especially to the strike-force which has to be the priority.

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="lharman7"]Bor, you seem to love quoting history and then extrapolating future outcomes.

Do you really think history will repeat itself?

Players age and lose abilities. You cant argue with that surely?[/quote]

Why would I think we can''t rock the Championship the way we rocked it last time?

Whittaker is 31, and while players obviously lose ability with age, 31 would be young to start losing it. Typically 34-35 is the tipping point.

[Katie Borkins 1]

The other point would be none of us know if Whittaker is any better or worse having sat out a season. We do know only two seasons ago he was an ever present in our promotion season, and we do know Pinto is first choice.

So there is nothing factual to suggest he has "lost it", just speculation based on his getting older.

[daly 500]

Hopefully we can get some of the money back on the Everton Con, sell Dorrans to Wroxham Bassong to the Bengal Tigers

Vardis to anyone who has a bob or two

[daly 500]

Mulumbu can also go up for adoption

[Highland Canary 76]

We must move on from Martin, Bassong and Whittaker.

[curious yellow 184]

It is sad that so many people think that the way forward is to get rid of people.

Both Neil and Lambert had immediate success with very few changes. Hughton''s first season was good, then he tried to change things.

Last season it looked like we would survive until the January purchases.

Is it a desire to punish the team for what happened last season? Because mostly they are the people who put us there in the first place.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

It amuses me that players who proved themselves only 12 months ago must be crap now because they''re a year older but our youngsters who we have never seen play in the Championship are assumed to be good enough to slot straight into the first team and get us back up. Who were the last few Academy products who got into the team? Declan Rudd, Korey Smith and Tom Adeyemi come to mind. Not to knock them, but personally I would rather go with proven experience.

[Highland Canary 76]

The defence was the weak link in the championship. That''s what makes it even more ludicrous that we failed to address it last August.

[Jools 584]

[quote user="Katie Borkins"][quote user="lharman7"]Bor, you seem to love quoting history and then extrapolating future outcomes.

Do you really think history will repeat itself?

Players age and lose abilities. You cant argue with that surely?[/quote]

Why would I think we can''t rock the Championship the way we rocked it last time?

Whittaker is 31, and while players obviously lose ability with age, 31 would be young to start losing it. Typically 34-35 is the tipping point.[/quote]I think it''s more a question of fresh impetus rather than a players age/ability. Of course the likes of Ruddy, Bassong, Hoolahan, Martin  & Whittaker can put decent shifts in the Championship, but is their staleness owing to being here a number of seasons going to permeate through the entire squad?

[Hairy Canary 668]

Agree with that Julian. We have a number of players who have now been relegated with us twice. That takes it out of you mentally and I would have thought a fresh start both for us and the player could be in both party''s interests.

Obviously we don''t need wholesale changes to the extent that we end up with too many players needing to bed in but some fresh blood, unscarred, is vital. IMO?

[Jools 584]

[quote user="Hairy Canary"]Agree with that Julian. We have a number of players who have now been relegated with us twice. That takes it out of you mentally and I would have thought a fresh start both for us and the player could be in both party''s interests.

Obviously we don''t need wholesale changes to the extent that we end up with too many players needing to bed in but some fresh blood, unscarred, is vital. IMO?[/quote][Y] And hopefully the introduction of two or three of our youngsters.

[Jacko 0]

I agree that we need to freshen things up, but we don''t have masses of cash to achieve this.

This inevitably means we are going to have to prioritise positions that require the most urgent strengthening. In terms of pure numbers, the squad is short at centre back, right wing (when Redmond is inveitably sold) and centre forward. Those areas that must be prioritised in the summer above all others.

Pinto will be our first choice full back next season and given that Neil is likely to revert to a pressing game with very high full backs I can see him being a massive weapon for us next year. Whittaker has shown at this level he can also do that job for Neil when called upon.

I therefore do not see the sense in going out and spending what scarce resources we have on a new full back when we have two perfectly good ones here already and other areas of the team which need urgent work.

[Number 9 0]

Surely with Whittaker and Martin it''s not about their age. Over the past couple of seasons our squad has been gradually improving as new players are brought in and this process has highlighted the shortcomings of certain players who although being enthusiastic and wholehearted, haven''t trained on.

The bulk of players brought in have been midfield or strikers not defenders, we have been trying to outscore the opposition, not many clean sheets. This despite a growing crescendo of voices pleading for defensive changes as each transfer window passed.

The player who can be concerned about age is Wes, who couldn''t play every game last season, according to the manager. It will be interesting how his situation is managed this season.

[Horse Renoir 1]

Neil sounds confident Pinto will be part of the team next year. Whittaker is superb cover for both full back positions. As long as he''s not on huge money I don''t see a downside to keeping him. We''re trying to get promoted next year, I wouldn''t risk using a young player in a defensive position. I''d blood younger attacking players into the team, but we''ll need to be rock solid at the back next year.

I think people are forgetting just how good Whittaker was in that league last time. His lack of pace is very rarely exposed. I definitely think it''s a good idea to keep him.

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

[quote user="Jacko"]I agree that we need to freshen things up, but we don''t have masses of cash to achieve this. This inevitably means we are going to have to prioritise positions that require the most urgent strengthening. In terms of pure numbers, the squad is short at centre back, right wing (when Redmond is inveitably sold) and centre forward. Those areas that must be prioritised in the summer above all others. Pinto will be our first choice full back next season and given that Neil is likely to revert to a pressing game with very high full backs I can see him being a massive weapon for us next year. Whittaker has shown at this level he can also do that job for Neil when called upon. I therefore do not see the sense in going out and spending what scarce resources we have on a new full back when we have two perfectly good ones here already and other areas of the team which need urgent work.[/quote]

 

This.