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Hank shoots Skyler

Wes Hoolahan

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Hope he gets another year, thought he was brilliant last night but then again Im biased lol

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Graham Humphrey says “Only two players have scored more goals than him this season.”

We play 1 goalkeeper, 4 defenders and 2 holding midfield players, that means there are only 4 players likely to score goals.

Factor in a bit of squad rotation and it’s not surprising that Hoolahan is in the top three for goals scored and has a few assists.

However:

- Hoolahan has started more games (25) than Mbokani (15), Jerome (18), Redmond (23), Jarvis (12), Naismith (10).

- Brady played most of the season at full back

- 4 goals is not very many for an attacking midfield player

- 1 of the 4 was a penalty, a poorly taken penalty at that

- only 1 of the other 3 was a shot from outside the box

- goal scoring has been a problem for us all season, if Hoolahan is so good it must be down to all the others being completely useless.

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[quote user="Curious Canary"]Graham Humphrey says “Only two players have scored more goals than him this season.”

We play 1 goalkeeper, 4 defenders and 2 holding midfield players, that means there are only 4 players likely to score goals.

Factor in a bit of squad rotation and it’s not surprising that Hoolahan is in the top three for goals scored and has a few assists.

However:

- Hoolahan has started more games (25) than Mbokani (15), Jerome (18), Redmond (23), Jarvis (12), Naismith (10).

- Brady played most of the season at full back

- 4 goals is not very many for an attacking midfield player

- 1 of the 4 was a penalty, a poorly taken penalty at that

- only 1 of the other 3 was a shot from outside the box

- goal scoring has been a problem for us all season, if Hoolahan is so good it must be down to all the others being completely useless.[/quote]
If by a few assists you mean 8, higher than anyone else in the squad, and with a pass completion rate of 82% which only Dorrans can compete with, followed by 4 goals, in a team that''s gone down...
As for your "well one of his goals was a penalty and it was rubbish". Did he score? If he did, it''s not a rubbish penalty. And is a perfect highlight of how stupid your entire post is.

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Hogesar did you see Hoolahan’s penalty? Yes the stats say he scored but it was a rubbish penalty IMHO.

You must really rate Wijnaldum, 9 goals and 5 assists in a side that is going down.

My post was full of indisputable facts.

Your stats on pass completion rate are crude.

Hoolahan has completed 881 passes this season with a pass accuracy of 82%, of which 74% were forward passes.

Howson has completed 956 passes this season with a pass accuracy of 75%, of which 88% were forward passes.

Which is best? How can you tell?

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Wes should stay and mentor Maddison. Them 2 can share game time. Wes is clearly our most creative player and deserves another year even if we do phsse him out.

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A rubbish penalty is a penalty that isn''t scored.
Next we''ll be writing off Mbokani''s goal last night because it was a tap-in.
I think Wes should get one more season with us, even if as a surprise package from the bench.
Who knows, we might yet get to play Houghton''s Brighton as well as Villa, Newcastle, the Scum, Burton Albion, Derby County, etc.  I would look forward to that.

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Agree with yoda, Wes was very good last night and is one of the best City players never to win POTS IMO

There are a few idiots who chose to be overly critical of his weaknesses, which are far outweighed by his strengths.

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[quote user="Vanwink"]Agree with yoda, Wes was very good last night and is one of the best City players never to win POTS IMO

There are a few idiots who chose to be overly critical of his weaknesses, which are far outweighed by his strengths.[/quote]
[Y]

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Pathetic argument.

Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is an idiot (vanwink, hogesar, norfolkbroadslim just throw out a few insults, stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la).

“Wes was very good last night”.

So how about Redmond?

Wasn’t he better?

One goal, one assist and twice hitting the post? Did Hoolahan do that?

Hoolahan a couple of long shots from outside the box one missed by miles.

Or perhaps you accept that Redmond is too good to stay with us?

Some people (yes you Katie) have a bizarre idea that the outcome is the only thing that matters.

So Hoolahan’s penalty wasn’t a rubbish shot because it went in.

The Jarvis assist at West Brom wasn’t a miskick because Brady scored.

The Vardy penalty was obviously a penalty because the ref gave it and he scored

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[quote user="Curious Canary"]Pathetic argument.

Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is an idiot (vanwink, hogesar, norfolkbroadslim just throw out a few insults, stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la).

“Wes was very good last night”.

So how about Redmond?

Wasn’t he better?

One goal, one assist and twice hitting the post? Did Hoolahan do that?

Hoolahan a couple of long shots from outside the box one missed by miles.

Or perhaps you accept that Redmond is too good to stay with us?

Some people (yes you Katie) have a bizarre idea that the outcome is the only thing that matters.

So Hoolahan’s penalty wasn’t a rubbish shot because it went in.

The Jarvis assist at West Brom wasn’t a miskick because Brady scored.

The Vardy penalty was obviously a penalty because the ref gave it and he scored[/quote]

What?

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Honestly Curious Canary one of the most pathetic agenda-glaring posts I''ve ever read! you can''t just write off Hoolahan''s penalty and disregard his assists like that! How ridiculous!

Decided to number and dissect each of your apparent points...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

1) ''''Factor in a bit of squad rotation and it’s not surprising that Hoolahan is in the top three for goals scored and has a few assists.

However:

- Hoolahan has started more games (25) than Mbokani (15), Jerome (18), Redmond (23), Jarvis (12), Naismith (10)''''

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http://www.turnstyle.co.uk/football/2015/12/05/revealed-premier-leagues-13-creative-players-season-based-fewest-minutes-played-per-assist/

Click the link, look at the players, look at the clubs they play for and the goals they''ve scored this season as a whole. Hoolahan has done extremely well for us and the fact it has been recognised here (with the aid of STATISTICS - assists per min are quite important btw) speaks dividends for him.

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2) ''''Brady played most of the season at full back ''''

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He''s been almost completely absent since West Brom away. Subbed off early against Newcastle and we all thought he was injured, don''t think he was as he continued to start but churn out anonymous performances. Evidenced yesterday by his dropping to the bench.

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3) ''''4 goals is not very many for an attacking midfield player''''

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It is plenty when you look at the number of goals the rest of our attacking midfield (and even strike force) have churned out.

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4) ''''1 of the 4 was a penalty, a poorly taken penalty at that''''

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How can you take a goal away from him and disregard his assists because you don''t think it was good? If that''s what you''re going to do for Hoolahan then let''s have a look back through every goal this season and delete all goals containing any amount of fortune because that obviously renders them invalid!

- Jerome at Man U, De Gea should''ve saved it

- Jerome at Man City, Hart dropped the ball at his feet (literally anyone could''ve scored that goal)

- Russell Martin, Sunderland away, ball hit him and went in, he didn''t even know it was there

etc

etc

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5) ''''only 1 of the other 3 was a shot from outside the box''''

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HOW IS THIS A POINT ABOUT ANYTHING

Also why you''ve brought Redmond into it is beyond me, the whole context of the thread is about should Hoolahan stay next season or not, nothing to do with Redmond. Not to worry, I will put it down as another attempted point for your extremely biased and selective argument.

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Curious Canary wrote:

''''Some people (yes you Katie) have a bizarre idea that the outcome is the only thing that matters.

So Hoolahan’s penalty wasn’t a rubbish shot because it went in.

The Jarvis assist at West Brom wasn’t a miskick because Brady scored.

The Vardy penalty was obviously a penalty because the ref gave it and he scored ''''

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But the outcome is the only thing that matters, it''s the only thing that puts points on the board?

Would you rather Hoolahan have taken a good penalty into the corner but the keeper pulled off great save?

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Point 1 Walt:

Yes clicked that link as suggested.

it’s just headline grabbing “The Premier League''s 13 most creative players revealed

…Based on fewest minutes played per assist.”

Do you seriously think that these stats prove that Hoolahan is/was the seventh best creative player in the league?

Presumably you do since you are quoting the link.

Or are you just staying he’s Norwich’s most creative player?

Then what about the bigger picture?

Stoke, Swansea, Watford, Crystal Palace, West Brom, Bournemouth, Sunderland, they don’t have any creative players. Their managers must be forming a queue to tempt Hollahan away from us to join them.

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I''ve got several issues with hoolahan in the premier league. Firstly in his defence we haven''t actually got a premier league forward good enough to play upfront by himself and stick it in the net 15/20 occasions in a season. However regardless of that he doesn''t score or shoot enough to play behind the striker IMO. We need a player to play in that position who is capable of scoring 10 goals and being our second highest scorer, I think that is what Neil was hoping Naismith would bring and I think he still might but it didn''t quite work out for him this season.

With regards to his creativity stats I think we have to take into account the amount of the ball hoolahan does actually have in the final third. I would say that when he plays behind the forward 80% (guesstimate) of our play would go through wes at some point. Now if you look at his return, terrible striker misses aside, should he actually be contributing more? I know it sounds very harsh given the fact that most of the other creative players created consideriably less, but with a team struggling like we were I would much rather see 2 forwards.

The championship is a completely different kettle of fish and hoolahan is an absolute menace, unplayable at times...why?

We dominate the play and Spend majority in the opponents half with the wide men and other midfielders/backs joining in, hoolahans able to find pockets nobody has even seen, whereas in the premier league we simply don''t have the quality to commit that many men forward and we seem to break so slowly down the pitch.

He undoubtably will be a key member of our championship campaign and rightly should be, but he still seems like another nearly premier league player like the vast majority of our current squad

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[quote user="The Great Wall Of Tettey"]I''ve got several issues with hoolahan in the premier league. Firstly in his defence we haven''t actually got a premier league forward good enough to play upfront by himself and stick it in the net 15/20 occasions in a season. However regardless of that he doesn''t score or shoot enough to play behind the striker IMO. We need a player to play in that position who is capable of scoring 10 goals and being our second highest scorer, I think that is what Neil was hoping Naismith would bring and I think he still might but it didn''t quite work out for him this season.

With regards to his creativity stats I think we have to take into account the amount of the ball hoolahan does actually have in the final third. I would say that when he plays behind the forward 80% (guesstimate) of our play would go through wes at some point. Now if you look at his return, terrible striker misses aside, should he actually be contributing more? I know it sounds very harsh given the fact that most of the other creative players created consideriably less, but with a team struggling like we were I would much rather see 2 forwards.

The championship is a completely different kettle of fish and hoolahan is an absolute menace, unplayable at times...why?

We dominate the play and Spend majority in the opponents half with the wide men and other midfielders/backs joining in, hoolahans able to find pockets nobody has even seen, whereas in the premier league we simply don''t have the quality to commit that many men forward and we seem to break so slowly down the pitch.

He undoubtably will be a key member of our championship campaign and rightly should be, but he still seems like another nearly premier league player like the vast majority of our current squad[/quote][Y]

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Point 2 Walt:

Yes, just emphasizes my point which was to give a possible reason why only two Norwich players have scored more than Hoolahan. I said Brady, who might have scored more, often played at full back, you point out he hasn’t been playing at all recently.

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[quote user="The Great Wall Of Tettey"] He undoubtably will be a key member of our championship campaign and rightly should be, but he still seems like another nearly premier league player like the vast majority of our current squad[/quote]
I''m a massive fan of Hoolahan but do pretty much agree with all you say. I do think he''s influential in the Premier League, and certainly the results we get when he plays to when he doesn''t speaks volumes in itself.
But equally when you have strikers missing sitters it''s nice to have a more direct option playing behind them who''s going to score. Like you suggest, Naismith. Unfortunately his performances didn''t merit it.
I wouldn''t say Hoolahan is a ''nearly'' prem player, I think he is a prem player. If he isn''t, then I fear for the other squad members because we consistently get better results, better ball retention, and create more when he plays. And his own stats back that up.

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Points 3 and 4 Walt:

Hoolahan (4 goals, 9 assists in 1985 minutes)

The rest of our attacking midfield are:

Redmond (6 goals, 2 assists in 2245 minutes)

Ofoe (no goals, 2 assists in 275 minutes)

Jarvis (1 goal, 1 assist in 1022 minutes)

Andreu (zero minutes)

Howson (3 goals in 2953 minutes – played defensive midfield quite often so not really attacking)

No wonder we have got relegated.

I’m not saying that Hoolahan is the only reason (it’s just that when Hoolahan plays it dictates how our entire attacking formation operates).

Oh by the way the stats prove that Ofoe is our most creative midfielder with an assist every 137 minutes. (Another pointless stat.)

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[quote user="Curious Canary"]Points 3 and 4 Walt:

Hoolahan (4 goals, 9 assists in 1985 minutes)

The rest of our attacking midfield are:

Redmond (6 goals, 2 assists in 2245 minutes)

Ofoe (no goals, 2 assists in 275 minutes)

Jarvis (1 goal, 1 assist in 1022 minutes)

Andreu (zero minutes)

Howson (3 goals in 2953 minutes – played defensive midfield quite often so not really attacking)

No wonder we have got relegated.

I’m not saying that Hoolahan is the only reason (it’s just that when Hoolahan plays it dictates how our entire attacking formation operates).

Oh by the way the stats prove that Ofoe is our most creative midfielder with an assist every 137 minutes. (Another pointless stat.)[/quote]

And our entire attacking formation (and in my view the team as a whole) generally functions considerably better when he plays than when he doesn''t. Its well documented on here that I am a huge Wes fan so I won''t repeat all the stats and the claims I''ve posted before but I think it is absolutely essential that he is part of the squad next season and whilst I am happy to back Neil and give him a chance again next season I would have to start thinking twice were he to do something stupid and offload Wes this summer. I think Wes is the perfect guy to act as a "mentor" to young Maddison who in time, if all goes to plan, will replace him in that attacking midfield role. With relegation comes an opportunity to have both in the squad next season so we can introduce Maddison to the first team gently and give Wes a breather from time to time as well. Vadis also a possibility in that role as well.

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And Point 5 Walt:

You think it’s funny that our “best” attacking midfielder can only score with a miss-hit penalty or a tap in? Other teams score with long shots, we don’t.

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Curious Canary

1) ''''Do you seriously think that these stats prove that Hoolahan is/was the seventh best creative player in the league?''''

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They prove he has the 7th best assist to minute ratio..so yes they do prove he''s one of the most creative..

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2) ''''Presumably you do since you are quoting the link.

Or are you just staying he’s Norwich’s most creative player''''

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Yes I do and yes he and Redmond are our 2 most creative players IMO.

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3) ''''Then what about the bigger picture?

Stoke, Swansea, Watford, Crystal Palace, West Brom, Bournemouth, Sunderland, they don’t have any creative players. Their managers must be forming a queue to tempt Hollahan away from us to join them. ''''

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3) what on earth are you going on about? This article has listed the 13 best, at no point has it said that no other team have any other creative players? Hoolahan is 34 so not likely that teams are going to be putting in a bid for him is it? So only players who are wanted by other clubs are worthy of any credit?

I just don''t understand how you can pick apart Hoolahan''s goal scoring and assist stats when he''s got one of the best in the team?

Where are Naismith''s goals and assists? Yes, he''s had probably a third of the amount of game time as Hoolahan, but he''s score what one goal? And one assist last night?

And no I don''t think it''s funny, I think your agenda against him is funny. ''Every other team scores long shots'', so that''s Hoolahan''s fault that we don''t is it? Because we always bash in the 25 yarders when he''s off the pitch! Where''s the criticism for every single player with less goals and less assists than him, that''s quite a lot of our team? Christ you are unfair on the poor guy!

Could he score more goals? Yes of course. But I''d say that almost every other attacking area on the pitch needs addressing before him.

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Point 2 Walt:

''''Yes, just emphasizes my point which was to give a possible reason why only two Norwich players have scored more than Hoolahan. I said Brady, who might have scored more, often played at full back, you point out he hasn’t been playing at all recently.''''

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No, when I said that Brady had been absent recently, I meant that he''s been poor! He''s still had plenty of game time to contribute, but has done very little unfortunately. Which is why I believe he was dropped against Watford.

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The Great Wall of Tettey wrote:

''''I''ve got several issues with hoolahan in the premier league. Firstly in his defence we haven''t actually got a premier league forward good enough to play upfront by himself and stick it in the net 15/20 occasions in a season. However regardless of that he doesn''t score or shoot enough to play behind the striker IMO. We need a player to play in that position who is capable of scoring 10 goals and being our second highest scorer, I think that is what Neil was hoping Naismith would bring and I think he still might but it didn''t quite work out for him this season. With regards to his creativity stats I think we have to take into account the amount of the ball hoolahan does actually have in the final third. I would say that when he plays behind the forward 80% (guesstimate) of our play would go through wes at some point. Now if you look at his return, terrible striker misses aside, should he actually be contributing more? I know it sounds very harsh given the fact that most of the other creative players created consideriably less, but with a team struggling like we were I would much rather see 2 forwards. The championship is a completely different kettle of fish and hoolahan is an absolute menace, unplayable at times...why? We dominate the play and Spend majority in the opponents half with the wide men and other midfielders/backs joining in, hoolahans able to find pockets nobody has even seen, whereas in the premier league we simply don''t have the quality to commit that many men forward and we seem to break so slowly down the pitch. He undoubtably will be a key member of our championship campaign and rightly should be, but he still seems like another nearly premier league player like the vast majority of our current squad''''

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough, some decent points in there, and not too much I can add that doesn''t repeat what Hogesar says really.

But I do think it''s slightly unfair to say that because 80% of the play goes through Hoolahan when we go forwards his assists/minute ratio doesn''t deserve as much merit.

For instance, say Jarvis and Redmond have played the same amount of minutes, say Jarvis sees 10% of the ball and gets 1 assist, and Redmond 40% of the ball with 3 assists. Are you saying that you think Jarvis'' record is better because he''s seen less of the ball?

Surely the amount Hoolahan dictates our play simply shows how integral to our team he is? And I could understand your criticism if we always played worse with him in the team, but frankly, as Hogesar says, we don''t.

Don''t really understand what he would have to do to become a premier league standard player for you! He''s performed and contributed more than Naismith IMO.

I don''t disagree in the sense that we could do with a player who scores more goals from that position, but when you look at how Naismith has performed you have to question how easy a target that is for us!

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Walt you have more faith in stats and the ability of Hoolahan that I do.

The trouble is that when the stats say that Hoolahan is good the stats are right and when the stats paint a different picture the stats are irrelevant because Hoolahan is good.

At the start of the season the team was playing well, Hoolahan was making a contribution.

The article you refer to was dated 5th December, and related to the first 14 games.

They say an assist every 202 minutes (i.e. 4 assists in 807 minutes.)

I have seen data that say it was 5 assists in 807 minutes , even better, an assist every 161 minutes.

If you take the first 7 games (Hoolahan’s purple patch) it was 5 assists in 419 minutes which gives an assist every 84 minutes – that puts him as the most creative midfielder in the Premier League, bar none.

After 15th December in the other 24 games, Hoolahan played in 18 for 4 assists in 1197 minutes, an assist every 299 minutes.

If the stats prove that Hoolhan is one of the most creative players in the PL after 14 games, they must also prove that after 38 games he is going downhill fast.

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I''d love to see him give us 1 more season but have a hunch he''ll be off to the States as the MLS would be great for him. I guess its now or never for that one.

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Put it this way.

Many of Wes'' ex teammates, his international manager, six Norwich City managers, football pundits and fans of other clubs think he''s a special talent. He''s not perfect but he still remains our most creative player, and think I trust the judgement of my own eyes and many people with more knowledge of the game than me, than someone like Curious Canary who has a sad agenda against one of Norwich City''s greatest players of the last twenty years. And I sincerely hope he''s here next season, and not just for the fact that it will royally p iss off Curious Canary.

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He may be off to Germany at some point. Although i''d like to think he''d give us another year here first.

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