Inexperience or incompetence?

[CanaryOne 0]

[quote user="cornish sam"]Sorry Fuzzar, I missed that , if AN is being totally honest with us then fair enough, I can appreciate his thinking but we were always going to leak goals with that back line, I thought his hand was forced. I''m not on Twitter or anything like that so have no knowledge about Mrs Bennett and her health or progress with dropping the sprog(s) but if it''s imminent then it might have been a slightly political answer even if it was a tactical decision...[/quote]According to Michael Bailey on the webchat Mrs Bennett is not due to drop untill the end of Feb / early March , so once and for all it was just a managerial balls up that cost us 3 points and if Klose was fit enough to sit on the bench he was fit enough to play Neil said he just did not want to start two newcomers at the back .

[Crafty Canary 495]

Nutty, the changes between Bournemouth and Liverpool certainly improved the attacking aspect of our performance but most certainly did not improve the defensive outcome. Losing 5-4 rather than 3-0 is nothing to celebrate - we lost again. To score 4 at home yet still lose is pointless as the post and pre-match points totals prove.

[cornish sam 944]

Thanks CanaryOne. In that case, yes, managers mistake and probably a mistake to not have RyBen on the bench instead of Klose so he could actually change things in a predictable way if he was unhappy to have two newcomers at the back (which I can totally understand and agree with). Still, he''s young and only in his third year of management, these things will happen, let''s just hope that they don''t happen so much that we get relegated!

[The gut 0]

Until all these treads after the game Saturday I hadn''t realised that Ryan Bennett was the answer to all our problems, which I assume he must be if he is the difference between winning and losing against Liverpool 2016.

I wish Alex had known this.

Is Ryan the reason we only got beat by 3 against Bournmouth?

For all those "in the know" are there any other games remaining where Ryan is critical to our success?

[Tumbleweed 106]

Thanks for the various responses. Some interesting thoughts. I am nowhere near thinking AN should be sacked, far from it but blaming individual mistakes by players, as he has done again is badly flawed.

We know that these CBs aren''t good enough. So if you play them you know they will do silly stuff. Only when a team is truly lacking in skill or having an off day will you get away with it. So to blame them when you are getting exactly what you should by now expect, I.e. poor defending, is missing the point. Especially when you help them out with a powder puff midfield.

The only true mistake made on Saturday was by the manager thinking this discredited pairing would work.

If we had a mean defence we wouldn''t be in such a quandary about the forward line either. Alex Neil should man up and admit he has ballsed it up, and use the next 6 days to buy another CB. It''s now a matter of urgency if we want to reap those spoils we fought hard for last season.

[Mickdundee 0]

What buck 93v?

Was Liverpool an improvement on Bournemouth or not?

No they both yielded 0 points, performances do not keep you up

Results do.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

The discredited pairing? Discredited by who? By the 27,000 fans you appear to be speaking for of which I''m one? Are you also part of those 27,000 you speak for Tumbleweed?

It''s true that we have been weaker defensively with the Martin / Bassong pairing. But it''s also true that we have been stronger offensively with this pairing. And to the same degree as well. i.e. with the pairing we have conceded twice as many goals but with the pairing we have scored twice as many goals. Why would we score half the amount of goals with Bennett/Bassong than we do with Martin/Bassong? To answer that you''d have to consider more than a one-eyed view of one player and his perceived weaknesses.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Arguably Liverpool is a worse defeat as we could have beaten them. But on the day their defence was just a bit less carp than ours.

But to the positive. Naismith looked good.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Mickdundee"]What buck 93v?

Was Liverpool an improvement on Bournemouth or not?

No they both yielded 0 points, performances do not keep you up

Results do.[/quote]

 

The only way this makes sense is if you believe the team that played at Bournemouth would have suddenly improved enough to play better against Liverpool than the team Alex Neil selected. If you''re indeed saying that do you have anything at all to help with that point of view?

[The gut 0]

Are we saying that Russ should never play for us again?

I''m no longer sure how bad he is.

Until Saturday he was part of the defence that only conceded 2 goals in the last 5 (undefeated) home games.

Has a player ever deteriorated so quickly?

[Tumbleweed 106]

My own view (others can no doubt comment for themselves) is that he is a decent enough right back but that he should no longer play in central defence.

[The gut 0]

I prefer him as a right back Mr Tumbleweed.

Do you think he is good enough to play for us in that position in this league?

[Tumbleweed 106]

Well Mr Gut, that''s a leading question!! Until we see more of Ivo, I believe Russ is the best we have there from few options. But I don''t think he is as strong now as he has been in the past and there is always scope to improve the quality we have in any position.

[Canary Gigolo 0]

Our defence struggled in the championship what money we have should be spent on another centre back or we are going to hell in a hand cart

Hell I tell you

[Indy 3,283]

Let''s not beat Martin too hard, our two clean sheets have been with him at RB and the missing Tettey does more than people credit him for.

That begs the question, if you play Pinto then you drop Martin not try to fit him into the team, I can see AN trying to use him in a holding midfield position if Tettey isn''t fit, or a 3 man CB combo.

Martin was poor but doesn''t deserve the criticism he''s getting, Bassong has been as poor in recent games!

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

[quote user="Victor Romanov"]Our defence struggled in the championship what money we have should be spent on another centre back or we are going to hell in a hand cart

Hell I tell you[/quote]FFS Waveney, please just choose one account and stick to it. Nobody really objects to your low-level trolling, but the constant switching between accounts is getting completely tiresome now. Come on chap, it really isn''t funny any more.

[T 190]

And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="T"]And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.[/quote]

 

Obviously their experience and competence is a million miles short of Alex Neil T. But that doesn''t mean we shouldn''t have opinions different to his. That would make these places pointless.

 

What gets me is the sheer arrogance of not even bothering to work out why a manager of his experience and competence would make the decisions he does. They may still disagree with him but at least credit the guy with enough ability to try and understand his opinions rather than wah wah wah 27,000 know more than him.

 

 

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="T"]And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.[/quote]

 

Obviously their experience and competence is a million miles short of Alex Neil T. But that doesn''t mean we shouldn''t have opinions different to his. That would make these places pointless.

 

What gets me is the sheer arrogance of not even bothering to work out why a manager of his experience and competence would make the decisions he does. They may still disagree with him but at least credit the guy with enough ability to try and understand his opinions rather than wah wah wah 27,000 know more than him.

 

 

[/quote]

I wasn''t surprised to see Martin restored to RCB. As Nutty points out, we are far more fluent going forward with Martin in that position than Bennett, and AN is obviously keen to have a better balance between attack and defence than we saw in games 12 to 22. The reason Martin hasn''t featured more at RCB recently is because he was needed at RB. What did surprise me, though, was that AN selected that back four even though (a) he did not have the pairing of Tettey and O''Neill covering them, (b) he gave Pinto his debut without pairing him with a more defensively capable and experienced wide midfielder ahead of him, and (c) he further weakened us defensively by playing both Wes and Redmond. I am trying to understand why he did this Nutty, but the best explanation I can come up with is that AN''s analysis of Liverpool under Klopp led him to abandon the hard lesson he claimed to have learned earlier in the season i.e. that, in the PL, first and foremost you need to be defensively solid before worrying about putting the ball in the opposition net. 

[T 190]

Nothing wrong with different opinions but an awareness not to abuse members of the club when someone has no professional experience or knowledge or qualifications would show some basic intellectual and emotional skills.

[93vintage 16]

The players put out on the pitch on Saturday can always be drilled better on what to do defensively. Even a couple of expensive centre backs would have struggled to contain Liverpool if our midfielders weren''t organised.Signings can scratch a particular itch, but they''re not always the panacea they''re made out to be.

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

He has lots of attributes but he is very inexperienced and getting it on the job. Would he do well at another club with more resources probably yes. Has he got shortcomings in particular loyalty to certain players long after their performances have failed to justify future selection the answer is yes. That said would he improve a club like Everton or Newcastle then i think he would. In short far from the finished article but probably the best we can hope for either in this Division or the championship

[hogesar 9,618]

My main issue is Ryan Bennett isn''t that good that I think he''d have made a massive difference in the game. We''d have had one less defender trying to play it out from the back which would have completely changed the way we built up our play so every chance we wouldn''t have scored 4 goals.

For our first goal, RM kept the ball in play by heading it back across the area. No guarantee Bennett would have done this. Would bennett have played that short back pass? Probably not, so there''s a positive.

[Herman 9,713]

People are just focusing on the defence when a major problem was our powder puff midfield. Redmond, Hoolahan,Dorrans and Howson. What sort of protection is that for an already weak defence. Too many taking the easy option of blaming Martin for everything. Hopefully some will see that Alex sorely missed nTettey and O''Neil and this is the area he needs to focus on as well. Getting Mulumbu up to speed would be a start. If he''s no good/isn''t rated then we need to hit the market.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="T"]And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.[/quote]

 

Obviously their experience and competence is a million miles short of Alex Neil T. But that doesn''t mean we shouldn''t have opinions different to his. That would make these places pointless.

 

What gets me is the sheer arrogance of not even bothering to work out why a manager of his experience and competence would make the decisions he does. They may still disagree with him but at least credit the guy with enough ability to try and understand his opinions rather than wah wah wah 27,000 know more than him.

 

 

[/quote]

I wasn''t surprised to see Martin restored to RCB. As Nutty points out, we are far more fluent going forward with Martin in that position than Bennett, and AN is obviously keen to have a better balance between attack and defence than we saw in games 12 to 22. The reason Martin hasn''t featured more at RCB recently is because he was needed at RB. What did surprise me, though, was that AN selected that back four even though (a) he did not have the pairing of Tettey and O''Neill covering them, (b) he gave Pinto his debut without pairing him with a more defensively capable and experienced wide midfielder ahead of him, and (c) he further weakened us defensively by playing both Wes and Redmond. I am trying to understand why he did this Nutty, but the best explanation I can come up with is that AN''s analysis of Liverpool under Klopp led him to abandon the hard lesson he claimed to have learned earlier in the season i.e. that, in the PL, first and foremost you need to be defensively solid before worrying about putting the ball in the opposition net. 

[/quote]

Westy I think it''s more than fluency. I think Martin is a braver defender than Bennett, not going for headers or in the tackle, but braver holding a higher line. That in turn moves the rest of the team further forward and means players like Wes, Redmond and now Naismith are in more of a position to hurt the opposition because they in turn receive the ball further up the pitch. Ryan Bennett is more comfortable defending deeper with more play in front of him. In fact I would say he is better at defending his own penalty area than Russ is. Let''s hope Klose is as brave as Russ and as dominant as Ryan. Of course that''s just my opinion. It could just be that Alex Neil lets Russ''s mum pick the team. However I do credit Alex with more sense than that and believe he would have good reasons for what he does even if they''re not the reasons I think.

 

As for Tetty on Sat, I think he was ill and I''m not sure how late that issue became apparent. I heard it was the day of the game and he went back home ill. With O''Neil unnavailable Alex decided to go with Dorrans. I''m not sure what the problem with Mulumbu is but he seems very reluctant to start him at the moment. Had we drawn the game 4-4 Alex would have had much more credit for attacking Liverpool and scoring four. But that late late winner changed everything...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="T"]And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.[/quote]

 

Obviously their experience and competence is a million miles short of Alex Neil T. But that doesn''t mean we shouldn''t have opinions different to his. That would make these places pointless.

 

What gets me is the sheer arrogance of not even bothering to work out why a manager of his experience and competence would make the decisions he does. They may still disagree with him but at least credit the guy with enough ability to try and understand his opinions rather than wah wah wah 27,000 know more than him.

 

 

[/quote]

I wasn''t surprised to see Martin restored to RCB. As Nutty points out, we are far more fluent going forward with Martin in that position than Bennett, and AN is obviously keen to have a better balance between attack and defence than we saw in games 12 to 22. The reason Martin hasn''t featured more at RCB recently is because he was needed at RB. What did surprise me, though, was that AN selected that back four even though (a) he did not have the pairing of Tettey and O''Neill covering them, (b) he gave Pinto his debut without pairing him with a more defensively capable and experienced wide midfielder ahead of him, and (c) he further weakened us defensively by playing both Wes and Redmond. I am trying to understand why he did this Nutty, but the best explanation I can come up with is that AN''s analysis of Liverpool under Klopp led him to abandon the hard lesson he claimed to have learned earlier in the season i.e. that, in the PL, first and foremost you need to be defensively solid before worrying about putting the ball in the opposition net. 

[/quote]

Westy I think it''s more than fluency. I think Martin is a braver defender than Bennett, not going for headers or in the tackle, but braver holding a higher line. That in turn moves the rest of the team further forward and means players like Wes, Redmond and now Naismith are in more of a position to hurt the opposition because they in turn receive the ball further up the pitch. Ryan Bennett is more comfortable defending deeper with more play in front of him. In fact I would say he is better at defending his own penalty area than Russ is. Let''s hope Klose is as brave as Russ and as dominant as Ryan. Of course that''s just my opinion. It could just be that Alex Neil lets Russ''s mum pick the team. However I do credit Alex with more sense than that and believe he would have good reasons for what he does even if they''re not the reasons I think.

 

As for Tetty on Sat, I think he was ill and I''m not sure how late that issue became apparent. I heard it was the day of the game and he went back home ill. With O''Neil unnavailable Alex decided to go with Dorrans. I''m not sure what the problem with Mulumbu is but he seems very reluctant to start him at the moment. Had we drawn the game 4-4 Alex would have had much more credit for attacking Liverpool and scoring four. But that late late winner changed everything...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="T"]And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.[/quote]

 

Obviously their experience and competence is a million miles short of Alex Neil T. But that doesn''t mean we shouldn''t have opinions different to his. That would make these places pointless.

 

What gets me is the sheer arrogance of not even bothering to work out why a manager of his experience and competence would make the decisions he does. They may still disagree with him but at least credit the guy with enough ability to try and understand his opinions rather than wah wah wah 27,000 know more than him.

 

 

[/quote]

I wasn''t surprised to see Martin restored to RCB. As Nutty points out, we are far more fluent going forward with Martin in that position than Bennett, and AN is obviously keen to have a better balance between attack and defence than we saw in games 12 to 22. The reason Martin hasn''t featured more at RCB recently is because he was needed at RB. What did surprise me, though, was that AN selected that back four even though (a) he did not have the pairing of Tettey and O''Neill covering them, (b) he gave Pinto his debut without pairing him with a more defensively capable and experienced wide midfielder ahead of him, and (c) he further weakened us defensively by playing both Wes and Redmond. I am trying to understand why he did this Nutty, but the best explanation I can come up with is that AN''s analysis of Liverpool under Klopp led him to abandon the hard lesson he claimed to have learned earlier in the season i.e. that, in the PL, first and foremost you need to be defensively solid before worrying about putting the ball in the opposition net. 

[/quote]

Westy I think it''s more than fluency. I think Martin is a braver defender than Bennett, not going for headers or in the tackle, but braver holding a higher line. That in turn moves the rest of the team further forward and means players like Wes, Redmond and now Naismith are in more of a position to hurt the opposition because they in turn receive the ball further up the pitch. Ryan Bennett is more comfortable defending deeper with more play in front of him. In fact I would say he is better at defending his own penalty area than Russ is. Let''s hope Klose is as brave as Russ and as dominant as Ryan. Of course that''s just my opinion. It could just be that Alex Neil lets Russ''s mum pick the team. However I do credit Alex with more sense than that and believe he would have good reasons for what he does even if they''re not the reasons I think.

 

As for Tetty on Sat, I think he was ill and I''m not sure how late that issue became apparent. I heard it was the day of the game and he went back home ill. With O''Neil unnavailable Alex decided to go with Dorrans. I''m not sure what the problem with Mulumbu is but he seems very reluctant to start him at the moment. Had we drawn the game 4-4 Alex would have had much more credit for attacking Liverpool and scoring four. But that late late winner changed everything...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="T"]And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.[/quote]

 

Obviously their experience and competence is a million miles short of Alex Neil T. But that doesn''t mean we shouldn''t have opinions different to his. That would make these places pointless.

 

What gets me is the sheer arrogance of not even bothering to work out why a manager of his experience and competence would make the decisions he does. They may still disagree with him but at least credit the guy with enough ability to try and understand his opinions rather than wah wah wah 27,000 know more than him.

 

 

[/quote]

I wasn''t surprised to see Martin restored to RCB. As Nutty points out, we are far more fluent going forward with Martin in that position than Bennett, and AN is obviously keen to have a better balance between attack and defence than we saw in games 12 to 22. The reason Martin hasn''t featured more at RCB recently is because he was needed at RB. What did surprise me, though, was that AN selected that back four even though (a) he did not have the pairing of Tettey and O''Neill covering them, (b) he gave Pinto his debut without pairing him with a more defensively capable and experienced wide midfielder ahead of him, and (c) he further weakened us defensively by playing both Wes and Redmond. I am trying to understand why he did this Nutty, but the best explanation I can come up with is that AN''s analysis of Liverpool under Klopp led him to abandon the hard lesson he claimed to have learned earlier in the season i.e. that, in the PL, first and foremost you need to be defensively solid before worrying about putting the ball in the opposition net. 

[/quote]

Westy I think it''s more than fluency. I think Martin is a braver defender than Bennett, not going for headers or in the tackle, but braver holding a higher line. That in turn moves the rest of the team further forward and means players like Wes, Redmond and now Naismith are in more of a position to hurt the opposition because they in turn receive the ball further up the pitch. Ryan Bennett is more comfortable defending deeper with more play in front of him. In fact I would say he is better at defending his own penalty area than Russ is. Let''s hope Klose is as brave as Russ and as dominant as Ryan. Of course that''s just my opinion. It could just be that Alex Neil lets Russ''s mum pick the team. However I do credit Alex with more sense than that and believe he would have good reasons for what he does even if they''re not the reasons I think.

 

As for Tetty on Sat, I think he was ill and I''m not sure how late that issue became apparent. I heard it was the day of the game and he went back home ill. With O''Neil unnavailable Alex decided to go with Dorrans. I''m not sure what the problem with Mulumbu is but he seems very reluctant to start him at the moment. Had we drawn the game 4-4 Alex would have had much more credit for attacking Liverpool and scoring four. But that late late winner changed everything...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="T"]And exactly what is the experience and competence of ANs critics on here. About the same as their grasp on reality and human decency it appears.[/quote]

 

Obviously their experience and competence is a million miles short of Alex Neil T. But that doesn''t mean we shouldn''t have opinions different to his. That would make these places pointless.

 

What gets me is the sheer arrogance of not even bothering to work out why a manager of his experience and competence would make the decisions he does. They may still disagree with him but at least credit the guy with enough ability to try and understand his opinions rather than wah wah wah 27,000 know more than him.

 

 

[/quote]

I wasn''t surprised to see Martin restored to RCB. As Nutty points out, we are far more fluent going forward with Martin in that position than Bennett, and AN is obviously keen to have a better balance between attack and defence than we saw in games 12 to 22. The reason Martin hasn''t featured more at RCB recently is because he was needed at RB. What did surprise me, though, was that AN selected that back four even though (a) he did not have the pairing of Tettey and O''Neill covering them, (b) he gave Pinto his debut without pairing him with a more defensively capable and experienced wide midfielder ahead of him, and (c) he further weakened us defensively by playing both Wes and Redmond. I am trying to understand why he did this Nutty, but the best explanation I can come up with is that AN''s analysis of Liverpool under Klopp led him to abandon the hard lesson he claimed to have learned earlier in the season i.e. that, in the PL, first and foremost you need to be defensively solid before worrying about putting the ball in the opposition net. 

[/quote]

Westy I think it''s more than fluency. I think Martin is a braver defender than Bennett, not going for headers or in the tackle, but braver holding a higher line. That in turn moves the rest of the team further forward and means players like Wes, Redmond and now Naismith are in more of a position to hurt the opposition because they in turn receive the ball further up the pitch. Ryan Bennett is more comfortable defending deeper with more play in front of him. In fact I would say he is better at defending his own penalty area than Russ is. Let''s hope Klose is as brave as Russ and as dominant as Ryan. Of course that''s just my opinion. It could just be that Alex Neil lets Russ''s mum pick the team. However I do credit Alex with more sense than that and believe he would have good reasons for what he does even if they''re not the reasons I think.

 

As for Tetty on Sat, I think he was ill and I''m not sure how late that issue became apparent. I heard it was the day of the game and he went back home ill. With O''Neil unnavailable Alex decided to go with Dorrans. I''m not sure what the problem with Mulumbu is but he seems very reluctant to start him at the moment. Had we drawn the game 4-4 Alex would have had much more credit for attacking Liverpool and scoring four. But that late late winner changed everything...

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

5 times! That''s impressive....