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El Convento

Not a good time to be relegated?

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Just reported on BBC R4: The upcoming takeover of Everton by Moores and Noell would bring the number of foreign owners in the premiership to 14. That would mean that they would collectively reach the 2/3 majority necessary to change its rules. This could result in an end to relegation from (and hence promotion to) the premiership (as in most US premier sports leagues) as they seek to protect their investments.

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[quote user="El Convento"]Just reported on BBC R4: The upcoming takeover of Everton by Moores and Noell would bring the number of foreign owners in the premiership to 14. That would mean that they would collectively reach the 2/3 majority necessary to change its rules. This could result in an end to relegation from (and hence promotion to) the premiership (as in most US premier sports leagues) as they seek to protect their investments.[/quote]I would be fine with that. I wouldn''t want us to be part of some hermetically-sealed league. No fun at all.

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The Prem were subject to massive abuse for the idea of adding a 39th game of the season to be played abroad, and quickly backed down.  I never quite understood why this was universally seen as shocking and despicable but it certainly gave quite a furore

 

I would be quite amused to see what would happen if they tried to suggest getting rid of relegation/promotion.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="El Convento"]Just reported on BBC R4: The upcoming takeover of Everton by Moores and Noell would bring the number of foreign owners in the premiership to 14. That would mean that they would collectively reach the 2/3 majority necessary to change its rules. This could result in an end to relegation from (and hence promotion to) the premiership (as in most US premier sports leagues) as they seek to protect their investments.[/quote]I would be fine with that. I wouldn''t want us to be part of some hermetically-sealed league. No fun at all.[/quote]But it won''t be what we want it will be what the majority of owners deem to be in their best interests. When the Premier League was first formed you could see which way things were going and the only thing that surprises me is that a closed league still hasn''t come about.The idea and mechanics of promotion and relegation have changed a lot in my lifetime. Back in the old 3rd North and South days it was only one promoted from each division. Then when we went to four straight divisions it was two up and two down in the first and second but four up and down between the third and fourth. Then came three up and three down between first and second and later still the idea and implementation of a playoff game. All this has happened in the last sixty years.Nothing is ever fully set in stone and either a closed Premier 1 and 2 or just a single closed Premier League is always a probability. One thing history shows us is that things don''t remain the same forever.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="El Convento"]Just reported on BBC R4: The upcoming takeover of Everton by Moores and Noell would bring the number of foreign owners in the premiership to 14. That would mean that they would collectively reach the 2/3 majority necessary to change its rules. This could result in an end to relegation from (and hence promotion to) the premiership (as in most US premier sports leagues) as they seek to protect their investments.[/quote]I would be fine with that. I wouldn''t want us to be part of some hermetically-sealed league. No fun at all.[/quote]But it won''t be what we want it will be what the majority of owners deem to be in their best interests. When the Premier League was first formed you could see which way things were going and the only thing that surprises me is that a closed league still hasn''t come about.The idea and mechanics of promotion and relegation have changed a lot in my lifetime. Back in the old 3rd North and South days it was only one promoted from each division. Then when we went to four straight divisions it was two up and two down in the first and second but four up and down between the third and fourth. Then came three up and three down between first and second and later still the idea and implementation of a playoff game. All this has happened in the last sixty years.Nothing is ever fully set in stone and either a closed Premier 1 and 2 or just a single closed Premier League is always a probability. One thing history shows us is that things don''t remain the same forever.[/quote]
There is nothing in the history that you cite that has changed the concept of promotion and relegation between divisions. The probability is that it will most likely remain that way. There has certainly been nothing that has gained any traction for you to draw a conclusion that a closed Premier League is a probability.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="El Convento"]Just reported on BBC R4: The upcoming takeover of Everton by Moores and Noell would bring the number of foreign owners in the premiership to 14. That would mean that they would collectively reach the 2/3 majority necessary to change its rules. This could result in an end to relegation from (and hence promotion to) the premiership (as in most US premier sports leagues) as they seek to protect their investments.[/quote]I would be fine with that. I wouldn''t want us to be part of some hermetically-sealed league. No fun at all.[/quote]But it won''t be what we want it will be what the majority of owners deem to be in their best interests. When the Premier League was first formed you could see which way things were going and the only thing that surprises me is that a closed league still hasn''t come about.The idea and mechanics of promotion and relegation have changed a lot in my lifetime. Back in the old 3rd North and South days it was only one promoted from each division. Then when we went to four straight divisions it was two up and two down in the first and second but four up and down between the third and fourth. Then came three up and three down between first and second and later still the idea and implementation of a playoff game. All this has happened in the last sixty years.Nothing is ever fully set in stone and either a closed Premier 1 and 2 or just a single closed Premier League is always a probability. One thing history shows us is that things don''t remain the same forever.[/quote]
There is nothing in the history that you cite that has changed the concept of promotion and relegation between divisions. The probability is that it will most likely remain that way. There has certainly been nothing that has gained any traction for you to draw a conclusion that a closed Premier League is a probability.
[/quote]The potted history of promotion and relegation simply shows that things are subject to change.The very fact that the question of a closed league is raised time and again leads me to the conclusion that an increasing number of the interested parties would like to see this happen. On that basis alone it would be foolish to conclude that the prospect of a closed league is nil.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="El Convento"]Just reported on BBC R4: The upcoming takeover of Everton by Moores and Noell would bring the number of foreign owners in the premiership to 14. That would mean that they would collectively reach the 2/3 majority necessary to change its rules. This could result in an end to relegation from (and hence promotion to) the premiership (as in most US premier sports leagues) as they seek to protect their investments.[/quote]I would be fine with that. I wouldn''t want us to be part of some hermetically-sealed league. No fun at all.[/quote]But it won''t be what we want it will be what the majority of owners deem to be in their best interests. When the Premier League was first formed you could see which way things were going and the only thing that surprises me is that a closed league still hasn''t come about.The idea and mechanics of promotion and relegation have changed a lot in my lifetime. Back in the old 3rd North and South days it was only one promoted from each division. Then when we went to four straight divisions it was two up and two down in the first and second but four up and down between the third and fourth. Then came three up and three down between first and second and later still the idea and implementation of a playoff game. All this has happened in the last sixty years.Nothing is ever fully set in stone and either a closed Premier 1 and 2 or just a single closed Premier League is always a probability. One thing history shows us is that things don''t remain the same forever.[/quote]
There is nothing in the history that you cite that has changed the concept of promotion and relegation between divisions. The probability is that it will most likely remain that way. There has certainly been nothing that has gained any traction for you to draw a conclusion that a closed Premier League is a probability.
[/quote]The potted history of promotion and relegation simply shows that things are subject to change.The very fact that the question of a closed league is raised time and again leads me to the conclusion that an increasing number of the interested parties would like to see this happen. On that basis alone it would be foolish to conclude that the prospect of a closed league is nil. [/quote]
There is a long, long gap between nil ( which nobody that I am aware of is concluding ) and your probability scenario. Perhaps you meant to say "possibility."

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There never has been a good time to be relegated. That said the clubs in the PL next season will be even more stronger financially than normal v the promoted clubs so logically it will become harder to get promoted and stay up, but as we all know the whole saga is far more complicated than that

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]
There is a long, long gap between nil ( which nobody that I am aware of is concluding ) and your probability scenario. Perhaps you meant to say "possibility."
[/quote]Depends where you want to draw the line between possible and probable and over what timescale. When the Premier League was first proposed I thought we would very quickly move in that direction, I was wrong. Will it happen in the next 20 years? What are the odds? Will the widening financial  gap make it more likely? Much to consider but on balance my view is that it is more a probability than just a possibility.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]
There is a long, long gap between nil ( which nobody that I am aware of is concluding ) and your probability scenario. Perhaps you meant to say "possibility."
[/quote]Depends where you want to draw the line between possible and probable and over what timescale. When the Premier League was first proposed I thought we would very quickly move in that direction, I was wrong. Will it happen in the next 20 years? What are the odds? Will the widening financial  gap make it more likely? Much to consider but on balance my view is that it is more a probability than just a possibility.[/quote]

I am - genuinely - not sure about the financial or footballing logic for the top clubs of a sealed-off Premier League.

At the moment the big clubs dominate, and increasingly so, although Leicester this season are a welcome exception to the rule. Generally the serious challenges smaller clubs made to the elite, such as ours, have lessened.

in part because, with relegation, clubs there are always clubs in the PL struggling just to stay alive, let alone catch up.

But seal off the league, with presumably pretty much every club having a mega-rich owner, foreign or otherwise, and with every club getting vast TV revenues, and the oligopoly that exists could be challenged by the jumped-up nouveau riche.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"] I am - genuinely - not sure about the financial or footballing logic for the top clubs of a sealed-off Premier League.

At the moment the big clubs dominate, and increasingly so, although Leicester this season are a welcome exception to the rule. Generally the serious challenges smaller clubs made to the elite, such as ours, have lessened.

in part because, with relegation, clubs there are always clubs in the PL struggling just to stay alive, let alone catch up.

But seal off the league, with presumably pretty much every club having a mega-rich owner, foreign or otherwise, and with every club getting vast TV revenues, and the oligopoly that exists could be challenged by the jumped-up nouveau riche.[/quote]Maybe we won''t find out until a big club is threatened with the drop. I know its an unlikely scenario bearing in my mind that the top 8 are almost self selected. I suspect the rise of Leicester will more likely be a one or two season wonder than a genuine break of a small club into the big time. It could happen in stages with a reduction in the number promoted and relegated in a season, its certainly something that would appeal to many of the bigger clubs.I also noted that the parachute payment period has been cut from four seasons to three in the new agreement. From the way Swiss Ramble has explained it, this looks like an overall percentage reduction for the relegated clubs

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]
There is a long, long gap between nil ( which nobody that I am aware of is concluding ) and your probability scenario. Perhaps you meant to say "possibility."
[/quote]Depends where you want to draw the line between possible and probable and over what timescale. When the Premier League was first proposed I thought we would very quickly move in that direction, I was wrong. Will it happen in the next 20 years? What are the odds? Will the widening financial  gap make it more likely? Much to consider but on balance my view is that it is more a probability than just a possibility.
[/quote]
Perhaps one should find it heartening that your response provides more questions than answers. If this is also the case for the powers that be then possibly it keeps them on the back foot rather than the front. My own view is that you and I will never live to see it Ricardo.
On a different note, the OP ( as have many others ) makes reference to what occurs in professional sports in the USA, and perhaps the Premiership heading in that direction. Of course, nothing is impossible, but the long-standing culture in the UK is much different than what exists in North America. Here, the objective of the ultimate prize is sought whether that be champions of the World Series, the Super Bowl, the Stanley Cup etc. Teams here are in geographical divisions. Everything leads to a knockout scenario. Ties ( draws ) are not tolerated, even during regular season games. The fans must be accommodated, the culture requires a winner every time up. That is the culture here. My goodness, even when it comes to the Olympic Games, if an American finishes second it is "almost" culturally regarded as a failure, which I''ve always abhorred. I may be out of date, but I don''t believe this is the case in the UK. Certainly, when I grew up it was competing that was important. Not that you were a failure if you didn''t win.
Yes, some investors might see a benefit in a closed off Premiership but, equally ( or more so ), there will be many voices to suggest you don''t mess with culture of football and its fans. The possibility of the underdog ( such as Leicester this season ) upsetting the odds, the striving of those from a division below to get into the top tier, the fight at the bottom of the Premiership to avoid the drop. These are not small things to eliminate regardless of how TV money has changed the dynamics.
  

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Presumably if this happened then prem clubs would likely be out of all other competitions (with maybe the exception of the rumoured work-in-progress European super league)?

If you look at the US closed off leagues, NHL & The Stanley Cup, NFL & the Superbowl, MLB & the World Series - Other leagues such as the AHL, Candian football league, Baseballs minor leagues do not have the option to participate in these competitions.

on top of that, these "lower leagues" often get treated as a pool of reserve players, where you can pick up youngsters and other players who are in form, and just drop them back down whenever you''re done with them or if they don''t work out.

A closed off league would likely dramatically change the entirety of English football, and I can''t see fans of teams outside of the typical top-4 or 5 going along with it. It''s all well saying owners have the power, but if the premier leagues tv ratings go the same way as the MLBs or even the MLS'', then there will be no money for these owners to protect in the first place.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"]
Perhaps one should find it heartening that your response provides more questions than answers. If this is also the case for the powers that be then possibly it keeps them on the back foot rather than the front. My own view is that you and I will never live to see it Ricardo.
On a different note, the OP ( as have many others ) makes reference to what occurs in professional sports in the USA, and perhaps the Premiership heading in that direction. Of course, nothing is impossible, but the long-standing culture in the UK is much different than what exists in North America. Here, the objective of the ultimate prize is sought whether that be champions of the World Series, the Super Bowl, the Stanley Cup etc. Teams here are in geographical divisions. Everything leads to a knockout scenario. Ties ( draws ) are not tolerated, even during regular season games. The fans must be accommodated, the culture requires a winner every time up. That is the culture here. My goodness, even when it comes to the Olympic Games, if an American finishes second it is "almost" culturally regarded as a failure, which I''ve always abhorred. I may be out of date, but I don''t believe this is the case in the UK. Certainly, when I grew up it was competing that was important. Not that you were a failure if you didn''t win.
Yes, some investors might see a benefit in a closed off Premiership but, equally ( or more so ), there will be many voices to suggest you don''t mess with culture of football and its fans. The possibility of the underdog ( such as Leicester this season ) upsetting the odds, the striving of those from a division below to get into the top tier, the fight at the bottom of the Premiership to avoid the drop. These are not small things to eliminate regardless of how TV money has changed the dynamics.
  
[/quote]At my age I would think you are on safe ground with that bet, Yankee.[:D]

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The concept of a closed premier league is something I wouldnt want to be part of. I''m not interested in being part of something that will be the death of English football. Not that I think this is likely.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]
Perhaps one should find it heartening that your response provides more questions than answers. If this is also the case for the powers that be then possibly it keeps them on the back foot rather than the front. My own view is that you and I will never live to see it Ricardo.
On a different note, the OP ( as have many others ) makes reference to what occurs in professional sports in the USA, and perhaps the Premiership heading in that direction. Of course, nothing is impossible, but the long-standing culture in the UK is much different than what exists in North America. Here, the objective of the ultimate prize is sought whether that be champions of the World Series, the Super Bowl, the Stanley Cup etc. Teams here are in geographical divisions. Everything leads to a knockout scenario. Ties ( draws ) are not tolerated, even during regular season games. The fans must be accommodated, the culture requires a winner every time up. That is the culture here. My goodness, even when it comes to the Olympic Games, if an American finishes second it is "almost" culturally regarded as a failure, which I''ve always abhorred. I may be out of date, but I don''t believe this is the case in the UK. Certainly, when I grew up it was competing that was important. Not that you were a failure if you didn''t win.
Yes, some investors might see a benefit in a closed off Premiership but, equally ( or more so ), there will be many voices to suggest you don''t mess with culture of football and its fans. The possibility of the underdog ( such as Leicester this season ) upsetting the odds, the striving of those from a division below to get into the top tier, the fight at the bottom of the Premiership to avoid the drop. These are not small things to eliminate regardless of how TV money has changed the dynamics.
  
[/quote]At my age I would think you are on safe ground with that bet, Yankee.[:D][/quote]
Perhaps, but you and I are not far apart and I am still targeting 100 as long as the working parts hold up. Golly, that''s nearly 30 more seasons of yo-yo activity. I better speak to the doctor on the next visit and find out if he would recommend a switch to crossword puzzles. [:D]
P.S: To Redder''s Right Foot
With respect to your comment:
"If you look at the US closed off leagues, NHL & The Stanley Cup, NFL & the Superbowl, MLB & the World Series - Other leagues such as the AHL, Candian football league, Baseballs minor leagues do not have the option to participate in these competitions. 
on top of that, these "lower leagues" often get treated as a pool of reserve players, where you can pick up youngsters and other players who are in form, and just drop them back down whenever you''re done with them or if they don''t work out." 
Those "other leagues" you refer to are basically feeder leagues/farm sytems for and funded by the major league teams. The respective divisions they participate in also operate in the same manner as the major league teams working towards a knockout competition against each other in their respective divisions. The exception to this is clearly the Canadian Football League. While many of the players are Americans who don''t make the grade in the NFL, I don''t think most Canadians would like to see their teams being mentioned as not having the option to compete in the NFL. They have their own competition called the Grey Cup. It may be small potatoes to everyone outside of Canada but it''s important to Canadians. 

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