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Jim Smith

Why would you continually leave out your most influential midfielder?

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Really annoys me.

All our managers go through a spell of doing it then realise they need Wes in our side. Alex Neil is a good manager but even he seems to have fallen into the routine of dropping Wes to supposedly make us more solid. It''s just b**llocks frankly. It just means we can''t retain possession as well, pose mess threat and invite pressure onto ourselves.

I''m sure we will hear how he has been away with ROI so was tired but so had Brady. Don''t buy it.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Really annoys me.

All our managers go through a spell of doing it then realise they need Wes in our side. Alex Neil is a good manager but even he seems to have fallen into the routine of dropping Wes to supposedly make us more solid. It''s just b**llocks frankly. It just means we can''t retain possession as well, pose mess threat and invite pressure onto ourselves.

I''m sure we will hear how he has been away with ROI so was tired but so had Brady. Don''t buy it.[/quote]I buy it, Jim, because Hoolahan is 10 years older than Brady and has said himself he cannot cope with two games close together. This was three in nine days.

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Could it be possible that Wes Hoolahan isn''t the answer to everything?

And that whilst there is no denying that he can be extremely influential, he may not fit into every system that the manager wants to play?

Could it be that Jim?

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We played the same system we always play Morty but all we did was play both Howson and Redmond out of position. Howson in particular did nothing and is generally wasted out in that position. He did virtually nothing today.

Purple - have never seen Wes say that. Stand to be corrected if you can point me in the direction of the quote.

ALL of our best performances come when he plays. As was the case under Hughton but he too kept dropping him, seemingly on the flawed assumption it makes us more defensively solid.

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Hoolahan is a great attacking option, he creates and takes risks to open up defences. However he is also a luxury and causes us to give away possession far too often as well as leaving us open on the counter attack, neither was an option against a Chelsea side that should have punished us more with the possession that we seemed to constantly be gifting them.

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Jim, I''m not interested in debating "Wes must be played in every single game"

Why would any manager drop our best player, that consistently formed a part of all our best performances?

That is indeed a puzzler.

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[quote user="Canary Wundaboy"]Hoolahan is a great attacking option, he creates and takes risks to open up defences. However he is also a luxury and causes us to give away possession far too often as well as leaving us open on the counter attack, neither was an option against a Chelsea side that should have punished us more with the possession that we seemed to constantly be gifting them.[/quote]

We were gifting them possession because we did not have midfielders capable of receiving and passing the ball in tight spaces. Personally I think it''s a huge myth that Wes gives the ball away a lot of indeed that we give the ball away more when he plays. I think we actually keep the ball a lot better and resin possession and I''m pretty confident the stats will bear that out. The midfielder who I can recall giving the ball away midst in crucial errors of late is Howson who cost us two goals against Leicester and yet he us shoehorned into the line up EVERY week even if playing out of position in a role where he is ineffective.

I don''t have anything against Howson by the way. Decent player who had a big role to play for us but I find the Wes situation staggering.

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I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.

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I think it does make us more solid not having wes in.

It also makes us weaker going forward.

It does seem to be the case that he''ll get left out for a bit and we''ll then realise we need him. With his international duties on top of his age though I think Alex Neil is trying to make sure he gets the best out of him whenever he can. If that means dropping him in a game like Chelsea away then fair enough.

Generally though, against the teams around us at the bottom Wes can often be the difference.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]We played the same system we always play Morty but all we did was play both Howson and Redmond out of position. Howson in particular did nothing and is generally wasted out in that position. He did virtually nothing today.

Purple - have never seen Wes say that. Stand to be corrected if you can point me in the direction of the quote.

ALL of our best performances come when he plays.
As was the case under Hughton but he too kept dropping him, seemingly on the flawed assumption it makes us more defensively solid.[/quote]Jim, it was more something Martin O''Neill said in explaining why Hoolahan was often played in one game for the Republic and then left out of the next three days later, or omitted from the first to be fresh for the second. And in this case, ahead of our game today, Hoolahan did start both games, last Friday and Monday, and he is 33. Brady is a whole decade younger. Do you not think that Alex Neil might well have been agreeing with O''Neill that Hoolahan cannot manage that many games close together?As to "ALL of our best performances"...is that true? I suspect if Hoolahan is in the side and we play well that gets noticed, but it gets overlooked if we play well if he has been left out, and to an extent if he is included and we play badly. I have only seen one game this season, at home to West Brom, and he had a bit of a stinker. He was lucky to last 78 minutes before being subbed.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.[/quote]But its not lazy though Jim, its factual, Alex Neil and Chris Hughton know more about football, and specifically the strengths and weaknesses of Norwich City players than you and I. Unless you are actually a well respected manager, if so please accept my apologies.The manager picks the best team to win a game. To try and imply that a single player is the only reason we play well, really is a bit daft.Why is it every manager who has ever dropped Wes is wrong?And before you climb on your horse, there is no anti anything agenda here, I support Norwich City, not Wes Hoolahan. There seems to be a few people here, over the years that seem to have got a bit confused on this matter. I am delighted when we win and play well, and if he is part of that, all well and good. But the notion that he is a world class player that can fit into any system, or indeed start every game with a system built around him, is nonsense.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.[/quote]But its not lazy though Jim, its factual, Alex Neil and Chris Hughton know more about football, and specifically the strengths and weaknesses of Norwich City players than you and I. Unless you are actually a well respected manager, if so please accept my apologies.The manager picks the best team to win a game. To try and imply that a single player is the only reason we play well, really is a bit daft.Why is it every manager who has ever dropped Wes is wrong?And before you climb on your horse, there is no anti anything agenda here, I support Norwich City, not Wes Hoolahan. There seems to be a few people here, over the years that seem to have got a bit confused on this matter. I am delighted when we win and play well, and if he is part of that, all well and good. But the notion that he is a world class player that can fit into any system, or indeed start every game with a system built around him, is nonsense.[/quote]Leaving this specific Hoolahan case aside, it is a false argument that only a fellow professional (whether in football or any other line of buisness) can understand and so criticise an executive''s actions. The logic of that flawed reasoning is that no-one here could see that Bryan Gunn was getting things rather badly wrong. Or that you need to own a club to realise what a pig''s ear Fernandes has made of running QPR, or Ridsdale at Leeds etc etc etc. The point is that while professionals, by definition should indeed know more about the job they are doing than amateurs, that is not at all the same thing as always knowing better.

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"I think it comes down to style of play, if you’re a team that’s going to sit behind the ball and make yourself hard to break down to then hit teams on the counter, the problem that you’re going to have with Wes then is that he’s so far from the opposition’s goal when he picks the ball up. 

"If you’re going to play that way, he probably doesn’t suit that style. I think the managers that didn’t choose him probably did the right thing based on that, because his impact is in the final third. If you can get your team in that final third on a lot of occasions, then he will win you games, there’s no question."

Those are the words of Alex Neil and I completely agree with him. Wes isn''t an automatic selection in every game and isn''t the answer to everything.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.[/quote]But its not lazy though Jim, its factual, Alex Neil and Chris Hughton know more about football, and specifically the strengths and weaknesses of Norwich City players than you and I. Unless you are actually a well respected manager, if so please accept my apologies.The manager picks the best team to win a game. To try and imply that a single player is the only reason we play well, really is a bit daft.Why is it every manager who has ever dropped Wes is wrong?And before you climb on your horse, there is no anti anything agenda here, I support Norwich City, not Wes Hoolahan. There seems to be a few people here, over the years that seem to have got a bit confused on this matter. I am delighted when we win and play well, and if he is part of that, all well and good. But the notion that he is a world class player that can fit into any system, or indeed start every game with a system built around him, is nonsense.[/quote]Leaving this specific Hoolahan case aside, it is a false argument that only a fellow professional (whether in football or any other line of buisness) can understand and so criticise an executive''s actions. The logic of that flawed reasoning is that no-one here could see that Bryan Gunn was getting things rather badly wrong. Or that you need to own a club to realise what a pig''s ear Fernandes has made of running QPR, or Ridsdale at Leeds etc etc etc. The point is that while professionals, by definition should indeed know more about the job they are doing than amateurs, that is not at all the same thing as always knowing better.[/quote]Or how about not leaving the actual subject of the thread aside, and rambling on about other managers / clubs?Are you saying Alex Neil has been wrong to drop certain players when he sees fit?Or do you, or does anyone else here, actually know better?

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.[/quote]But its not lazy though Jim, its factual, Alex Neil and Chris Hughton know more about football, and specifically the strengths and weaknesses of Norwich City players than you and I. Unless you are actually a well respected manager, if so please accept my apologies.The manager picks the best team to win a game. To try and imply that a single player is the only reason we play well, really is a bit daft.Why is it every manager who has ever dropped Wes is wrong?And before you climb on your horse, there is no anti anything agenda here, I support Norwich City, not Wes Hoolahan. There seems to be a few people here, over the years that seem to have got a bit confused on this matter. I am delighted when we win and play well, and if he is part of that, all well and good. But the notion that he is a world class player that can fit into any system, or indeed start every game with a system built around him, is nonsense.[/quote]

Of course he''s not the only reason we play well and I would admit we are better placed to cope without him these days given the midfield options we have.

All i am saying is that it is my opinion, based on watching us over the last few years, that we generally play/perform better with Hoolahan in the side than we do without him in the side. Not always, but more often than not. I therefore find it bizarre that when we have away games against the better sides where ball retention is important the manager consistently drops him, This is just based on watching our performances but I will also see if the stats back it up as I suspect they will. I just don;t feel that we retain possession as well without him in the side which puts us under pressure. A more confident/clinical Chelsea side would have scored a hatful yesterday because we spent large spells of the game camped on the edge of our own box just kicking the ball straight back to them due to having no real out ball and the players not having the composure to play the ball to feet in tight areas.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.[/quote]But its not lazy though Jim, its factual, Alex Neil and Chris Hughton know more about football, and specifically the strengths and weaknesses of Norwich City players than you and I. Unless you are actually a well respected manager, if so please accept my apologies.The manager picks the best team to win a game. To try and imply that a single player is the only reason we play well, really is a bit daft.Why is it every manager who has ever dropped Wes is wrong?And before you climb on your horse, there is no anti anything agenda here, I support Norwich City, not Wes Hoolahan. There seems to be a few people here, over the years that seem to have got a bit confused on this matter. I am delighted when we win and play well, and if he is part of that, all well and good. But the notion that he is a world class player that can fit into any system, or indeed start every game with a system built around him, is nonsense.[/quote]Leaving this specific Hoolahan case aside, it is a false argument that only a fellow professional (whether in football or any other line of buisness) can understand and so criticise an executive''s actions. The logic of that flawed reasoning is that no-one here could see that Bryan Gunn was getting things rather badly wrong. Or that you need to own a club to realise what a pig''s ear Fernandes has made of running QPR, or Ridsdale at Leeds etc etc etc. The point is that while professionals, by definition should indeed know more about the job they are doing than amateurs, that is not at all the same thing as always knowing better.[/quote]Or how about not leaving the actual subject of the thread aside, and rambling on about other managers / clubs?Are you saying Alex Neil has been wrong to drop certain players when he sees fit?Or do you, or does anyone else here, actually know better?[/quote]

Sometimes managers get things right and sometimes they don''t. Most of us thought Neil was making a huge mistake taking Tettey off at Newcastle and that proved to be the case.

The logic of your argument is that fans can never have an opinion about team selection because the manager is always, unquestionably right.

Ultimately it comes down to Neil''s call and he will be judged accordingly based on results and performances. What we say on here won''t influence that but we are all allowed an opinion on matters of team selection and I don''t accept that the manager is always right, even though this manager is a good one and I trust his judgment most of the time.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.[/quote]But its not lazy though Jim, its factual, Alex Neil and Chris Hughton know more about football, and specifically the strengths and weaknesses of Norwich City players than you and I. Unless you are actually a well respected manager, if so please accept my apologies.The manager picks the best team to win a game. To try and imply that a single player is the only reason we play well, really is a bit daft.Why is it every manager who has ever dropped Wes is wrong?And before you climb on your horse, there is no anti anything agenda here, I support Norwich City, not Wes Hoolahan. There seems to be a few people here, over the years that seem to have got a bit confused on this matter. I am delighted when we win and play well, and if he is part of that, all well and good. But the notion that he is a world class player that can fit into any system, or indeed start every game with a system built around him, is nonsense.[/quote]Leaving this specific Hoolahan case aside, it is a false argument that only a fellow professional (whether in football or any other line of buisness) can understand and so criticise an executive''s actions. The logic of that flawed reasoning is that no-one here could see that Bryan Gunn was getting things rather badly wrong. Or that you need to own a club to realise what a pig''s ear Fernandes has made of running QPR, or Ridsdale at Leeds etc etc etc. The point is that while professionals, by definition should indeed know more about the job they are doing than amateurs, that is not at all the same thing as always knowing better.[/quote]Or how about not leaving the actual subject of the thread aside, and rambling on about other managers / clubs?Are you saying Alex Neil has been wrong to drop certain players when he sees fit?Or do you, or does anyone else here, actually know better?[/quote]

Sometimes managers get things right and sometimes they don''t. Most of us thought Neil was making a huge mistake taking Tettey off at Newcastle and that proved to be the case.

The logic of your argument is that fans can never have an opinion about team selection because the manager is always, unquestionably right.

Ultimately it comes down to Neil''s call and he will be judged accordingly based on results and performances. What we say on here won''t influence that but we are all allowed an opinion on matters of team selection and I don''t accept that the manager is always right, even though this manager is a good one and I trust his judgment most of the time.[/quote]Absolutely, we''re all entitled to an opinion. Which is a lot easier after the fact.But the opinion that Wes must play every single game, and we only play well when he does play, I find flawed.Was Hughton less right to drop Hoolahan than Alex Neil?

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="morty"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jim Smith"]I am simply expressing an opinion Morty. The manager always knows best argument is just a lazy one. Ultimately it''s his call but we are entitled to comment on it. We gad a player in the form if his life a few weeks ago bossing games and since then we''ve basically hardly played him and have lost all momentum. Of course fixtures are a factor in that too but I font think constantly dropping the player who makes us tick helps.[/quote]But its not lazy though Jim, its factual, Alex Neil and Chris Hughton know more about football, and specifically the strengths and weaknesses of Norwich City players than you and I. Unless you are actually a well respected manager, if so please accept my apologies.The manager picks the best team to win a game. To try and imply that a single player is the only reason we play well, really is a bit daft.Why is it every manager who has ever dropped Wes is wrong?And before you climb on your horse, there is no anti anything agenda here, I support Norwich City, not Wes Hoolahan. There seems to be a few people here, over the years that seem to have got a bit confused on this matter. I am delighted when we win and play well, and if he is part of that, all well and good. But the notion that he is a world class player that can fit into any system, or indeed start every game with a system built around him, is nonsense.[/quote]Leaving this specific Hoolahan case aside, it is a false argument that only a fellow professional (whether in football or any other line of buisness) can understand and so criticise an executive''s actions. The logic of that flawed reasoning is that no-one here could see that Bryan Gunn was getting things rather badly wrong. Or that you need to own a club to realise what a pig''s ear Fernandes has made of running QPR, or Ridsdale at Leeds etc etc etc. The point is that while professionals, by definition should indeed know more about the job they are doing than amateurs, that is not at all the same thing as always knowing better.[/quote]Or how about not leaving the actual subject of the thread aside, and rambling on about other managers / clubs?Are you saying Alex Neil has been wrong to drop certain players when he sees fit?Or do you, or does anyone else here, actually know better?[/quote]

Sometimes managers get things right and sometimes they don''t. Most of us thought Neil was making a huge mistake taking Tettey off at Newcastle and that proved to be the case.

The logic of your argument is that fans can never have an opinion about team selection because the manager is always, unquestionably right.

Ultimately it comes down to Neil''s call and he will be judged accordingly based on results and performances. What we say on here won''t influence that but we are all allowed an opinion on matters of team selection and I don''t accept that the manager is always right, even though this manager is a good one and I trust his judgment most of the time.[/quote]Absolutely, we''re all entitled to an opinion. Which is a lot easier after the fact.But the opinion that Wes must play every single game, and we only play well when he does play, I find flawed.Was Hughton less right to drop Hoolahan than Alex Neil?[/quote]

No, not playing Wes enough was, in my opinion, one of Hughton''s biggest mistakes and I think Neil is falling into the same trap from time to time. Admittedly not as often. Just my opinion though.

I think you should play your best players save for in exceptional circumstances.

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So playing a solid, more defensively minded team, against one of the best teams in the league, isn''t an exceptional circumstance?

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"Most of us thought Neill was making a huge mistake taking Tettey off at Newcastle, and it proved to be the case."

Pray tell Jim - when Neill made this glaringly obvious "huge mistake" who came on to replace Tettey?

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I have to agree with Jim. Although I do totally understand AN''s reasons and the flip side of the coin, Wes was without doubt playing an absolute blinder before he was dropped for the Liverpool game. Sure we got a draw but maybe we wouldn''t have drawn, or even lost, with Wes playing? I have no doubt he''d have carried that form into the Liverpool game. You have to give the opposition something to make them wary of on the counter attack, thus making them more cautious in throwing their respective players at us with no fear of Wes creating a bit of magic - I would hazard a guess that every team we play must be delighted to see him not starting, infact I''m certain of it. That''s no disrespect to anyone playing in the ''Wes position'' but Wes is a special player when given a run, he makes us tick and sees passes and moves that can''t be taught. As we''ve really shored up the defence for some games now dating back to Everton away in the cup. I hope he plays against Arsenal, I really do.

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@Thirsty - Hoolahan shouldn''t have replaced Tettey, he should have replaced someone in a more advanced role. Not criticising our guvnor though because in this instance we have the beauty of hindsight - AN doesn''t.

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Hoolahan did Lizard but that''s not relevant. We should have had Tettey and Hoolahan on the pitch at the same time. Those two are our most important midfielders, at least until Mulumbu is fully fit.

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I agree with what you''re saying Purple but the fact that Jim states ALL our managers get it wrong makes him being right more unlikely. But not impossible.

I think what happened at Newcastle is a very good point. But it seems that Jim is implying Wes should always play unless he''s replacing Tettey.

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Just to throw some stats into the mix:

2015/2016

Wes Starting: P9 W3 D2 L4 Points 11 PPG 1.22

Wes not starting P4 W0 D1 L3 Points 1 PPG 0.25

2013/2014

Wes Starting: P10 W2 D3 L5 Points 9 PPG 0.9

Wes not starting P28 W6 D5 L17 Points 23 PPG 0.82

2012/2013

Wes Starting: P28 W9 D10 L9 Points 37 PPG 1.32

Wes not starting P10 W1 D4 L5 Points 5 PPG 0.5

I fully accept stats do not tell the full story (eg who the relevant games are against) but even under Hughton in the second season when he was badly underused and had a thankless task at times we still averaged more points per game with him in the side. In the other two seasons the difference is striking.

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As you suggest those stats are meaningless Jim. Not least because managers have tended to start Wes in games we have a better chance of winning. What are the stats for his starts away to clubs expected to beat us?

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Really annoys me.

All our managers go through a spell of doing it then realise they need Wes in our side. Alex Neil is a good manager but even he seems to have fallen into the routine of dropping Wes to supposedly make us more solid. It''s just b**llocks frankly. It just means we can''t retain possession as well, pose mess threat and invite pressure onto ourselves.

I''m sure we will hear how he has been away with ROI so was tired but so had Brady. Don''t buy it.[/quote]

You make a very good point OP. There we were at Newcastle 3 2 down but well on top and Wes came on to change the game and so he did.

It is players for certain situations and as Bournemouth are finding out and we have already found out attack teams at this level and get destroyed. Unfortunately like it or not the only way to get points in a lot of games in the PL is set up and frustrate. I am sure Benteke and Sturridge would get into our team but Liverpool yesterday set up with no strikers and scored 4 away from home, Leicester dropped their main striker at the time when they came here.

Football has changed unless you are 1 of the top sides you get destroyed if you go out to attack teams. If we were in the championship we would be one of those top sides and sure we could attack every game but not in the PL

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