fans 'cheated' yet again

[King Klose 0]

I''m a ST holder and I didn''t go today, for this reason. I knew it was going to be like this and I have no problem with that. I didn''t have to go and neither did anyone else. Everything AN has said in the media this week has indicated the same, that we wouldn''t be too disappointed if we were knocked out to put it one way.

The league IS the bread and butter no matter what deluded people say or think. We have a very tough away game in 4 days so we couldn''t go 100% today if we wanted to give ourselves the best chance especially as Stoke rotated pretty much their whole team.

People also say "oh what about Millwall, Portsmouth, Wigan etc look what they have done in the cup". Well yes, but look where they are now. I''m not saying it''s a direct consequence for the success they had but it all fell apart soon after.

We just need to put it behind us now and move on. We were always going to lose today and I do feel slightly sorry for the people in attendance but they didn''t have to go, as it was pretty clear what was going to happen.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

If we are going to put in a duff performance I would rather it happen in the cup than in the league.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

I felt the same Al and wasn''t going to go but in the end the desire to see my team won out.

But I knew it would happen and it did. Tell you what though there were some good goals.

[ricardo 7,339]

[quote user="vos"]I felt cheated as I did not consider this to be a competitive match.[/quote]Why do you feel cheated? Disappointed maybe but hardly cheated.You saw some top class players and a goal from one of them that probably won''t be bettered if you went to CR for the next 20 seasons.I never expected to win and am happy that we came away clear of injuries and some fringe players had a good run out.What''s not to like?

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Was at the game today (just on last leg of journey back to Dorset now), and for whatever reason I didn''t feel as gutted as I did at say Watford and Southampton away. I knew that many of the cup crowd wouldn''t get into the singing side of things but nevertheless I was a bit disappointed that we (and I include myself in this) let the team down by not giving them the great vocal support we normally do. Still, I was relaxed about the game as our league fixtures this coming week mean far more to me at this particular stage in where our club is at, and where we want it to be come May. Roll on Stoke OTBC

P.s Apologies Eddie I didn''t make it to the Nelson afterwards, phone died in FCR around KO so no chance to contact you back till we were in the car on the way back down south! - was in the Nelson before the game mind buddy!

[westcoastcanary 173]

ricardo wrote: "I don''t think I am [missing your point]. We have one of the weaker squads in this league, we cannot afford injury to key players, extra cup games are therefore a pointless diversion. Losing a cup match to one of the favourites is hardly a confidence shaker. I''d swap it for a point from them in the league game in a heartbeat."

OK, you''ve now given me two reasons for thinking that taking the Cup seriously might be an encumbrance to, and detract from, achieving our main aim, which is staying in the EPL. First is that we cannot afford injury to key players, second is that losing to one of the Cup favourites is unlikely to seriously damage team confidence. These are certainly considerations, but they are not the only considerations. Nobody seems to ask themselves whether NOT taking the Cup seriously might be MORE of an encumbrance and detract MORE from our league campaign than taking it seriously would, e.g. because building and keeping momentum going over a series of games is hugely advantageous, as is staying focussed and maintaining consistency of performance. In the course of a single game, a team which has dominated the game but then takes its foot off the gas can find it difficult or impossible to reverse the process if necessary. Exactly the same can happen over a series of games in the case of a team with momentum, on a good run. You can''t turn top level performance on and off like a tap and IMO by treating the Cup as a sort of irrelevant diversion managers and players fall into that trap.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

WC

I don''t think your momentum point is that significant. Yes momentum is clearly important but I think most at the club will appreciate that a second string team playing Man City is a one off and a poor result here is not going to effect our mentality in the league.

We had a heavy loss against Spurs but were still able to continue our current good run against Villa.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Experience - which admittedly can be a faux-ami - would agree with you Westie. It''s a valid observation and discussion point.

Anecdotally, this may well be particularly true for clubs who are not used to, or expected to, win regularly.

Thus for clubs whose mean level might be below where they are currently performing, any loss or distraction from the psychologically fragile neural pathway of current success might well be a risk.

As a manager in Norwich''s current situation I would have been tempted to either play an obvious reserve or U21 side, or my strongest side and nothing in between.

Parma

[King Klose 0]

Well we rested 7 regulars yesterday so if say that''s fairly reserve.

[ricardo 7,339]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]

OK, you''ve now given me two reasons for thinking that taking the Cup seriously might be an encumbrance to, and detract from, achieving our main aim, which is staying in the EPL. First is that we cannot afford injury to key players, second is that losing to one of the Cup favourites is unlikely to seriously damage team confidence. These are certainly considerations, but they are not the only considerations. Nobody seems to ask themselves whether NOT taking the Cup seriously might be MORE of an encumbrance and detract MORE from our league campaign than taking it seriously would, e.g. because building and keeping momentum going over a series of games is hugely advantageous, as is staying focussed and maintaining consistency of performance. In the course of a single game, a team which has dominated the game but then takes its foot off the gas can find it difficult or impossible to reverse the process if necessary. Exactly the same can happen over a series of games in the case of a team with momentum, on a good run. You can''t turn top level performance on and off like a tap and IMO by treating the Cup as a sort of irrelevant diversion managers and players fall into that trap.

[/quote]Westcoast, I rely on the hard light of experience. In 1973/4 we reached the semi final of the league cup and were relegated. In 1984/85 we reached Wembley and won the cup but were relegated.Where was this bandwagon effect that you insist upon, then?

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Parma,

Playing the strongest team and yet still probably losing is a much bigger risk to morale.

Playing a considerably under strength team would not have been acceptable to so many that it wasn''t really a genuine option.

I think he called it about right, gave more game time to those that needed it but protected some of our best players giving us the fall back that "we didn''t put out our best team", if the cracks in confidence seem to be appearing.

[Buh 0]

Not sure exactly what people don''t understand about they took OFF Raheem Sterling and brought ON Kevin DeBruyne

It''s very simple

Don''t get all misty eyed over the cup, it''s not for us.

It''s for the big clubs and the plucky little pub teams. We don''t fit in.

[smooth 114]

Well it was a cheap game to go too.

Many first team regulars and stars of man city.

We have been embarrassed by lower league teams in this cup. So as I said a perfect draw and result.

It showed our weaknesses that recent results have glossed over and why this window is critical if we want to stay on the most important competition, the premier league.

If you want a cup run then follow a top team or be satisfied for potential injuries, fixture clashes on your way for survival or promotion.

We are a team who for the last number of years have fallen into that hole.

I am not bothered in the slightest, glad no injuries and that our inabilities can be recognised so hopefully we can get players in this window for the survival campaign.

Can''t see how a fan can see I any other way

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Klopp played the U21''s following the ''no half measures theory I was outlining''.

To some degree giving away dressing room secrets, I can assure that a simple instruction along the lines of "no injuries today lads" would be a clearly understood message and ensure that even relatively senior squad players played in fairly pre-season fashion, rendering the halfway house strategy meaningless as an indicator of performance.

Parma

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Absolutely Palma, the halfway house strategy is pretty meaningless, now we move on and back to the important stuff.

[ReadingCanary 0]

Having watched us beat Ipswich in the play off semi finals and defeat boro at Wembley with 40k fellow fans last season.... I think I''ll let the club off going out of the FA cup to man city this year.

[westcoastcanary 173]

[Y] Parma. I couldn''t find any Anderson & Sally-type number crunching on this but to me it looks like the sort of wrong-headed near-orthodoxy that their book sets out to expose. I have similar questions about the value of the "four days in the Portuguese sunshine"-style break over blank Cup weekends when you''ve gone out in the 3rd Round ........... 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

Bravo Westie. Analytics are interesting and valuable tools which I fully embrace...though I spend even more of my time now studying neuroplasticity (it''s my new Analytics..)

Parma

[westcoastcanary 173]

@ricardo

It''s fine to rely on experience, but the experience of a single individual, or in this case team on two occasions, casts the experiential net far too narrowly. I agree that an extended Cup run might weight things differently later in the campaign depending on how things had gone in the league in the interval. My question was about the approach to this particular match in the particular current circumstances.  

[Van wink 2,994]

"to me it looks like the sort of wrong-headed near-orthodoxy that their book sets out to expose".

Bill Shankly would have loved this.

[westcoastcanary 173]

At my age Parma, one has to cling on to the hope that neuroplasticity is of more than just theoretical interest! [:D]

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="Vanwink"]"to me it looks like the sort of wrong-headed near-orthodoxy that their book sets out to expose".

Bill Shankly would have loved this.[/quote][:D] Was it Lawro or Hansen who said that when they played they had all the advantages of modern analytics -- it was called the manager! No wonder British football has fallen so far behind since those days.

[Van wink 2,994]

Westcoastcanary wrote the following post at 10/01/2016 4:44 PM:

Vanwink wrote:

"to me it looks like the sort of wrong-headed near-orthodoxy that their book sets out to expose". Bill Shankly would have loved this.

Big Smile [:D] Was it Lawro or Hansen who said that when they played they had all the advantages of modern analytics -- it was called the manager! No wonder British football has fallen so far behind.

The demise of British football will have a lot more to do with the massive public health and lifestyle issues now faced by our population than analytical failure IMO.

[chicken 0]

The failure of modern football?

There isn''t one cause - there are several. The redistribution of money from TV deals is a huge issue IMHO.

There are inconsistancies throughout the game as well. A good example is QPR and now Bournemouth breaking the FFP rules and with no punishment at this point, at least not one that is immediate enough. Mainly because the football league and the premier league are separate entities despite the fact you get promoted from one to the other.

Not enough money is getting through to grass roots football full stop. We have seen a decline in pitches over recent years and also the number of 11 a side teams competing in local leagues. I started playing mens football 16-17 years ago, back then, as an example, Sunday footy in and around Norwich consisted of divisions down to 5a and 5b. On top of that you had the likes of the crusader league and the friendly league. Now, it is 3a and 3b and no other leagues in addition. That''s a loss of 6 leagues, lets say ten teams in each - 60 teams.

As for ''fans cheated yet again'' - Alex Neil was very open and honest and stated that this was a chance for the fringe players. I bought a ticket on that knowledge as I thought it would be good to see some of those players given more pitch time to see if they are that far behind and worthy of being ''fringe''. On yesterdays showing the answer would be other than Odija - yes.

[vos 155]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="vos"]I felt cheated as I did not consider this to be a competitive match.[/quote]Why do you feel cheated? Disappointed maybe but hardly cheated.You saw some top class players and a goal from one of them that probably won''t be bettered if you went to CR for the next 20 seasons.I never expected to win and am happy that we came away clear of injuries and some fringe players had a good run out.What''s not to like?[/quote]

Probably fair to say I was not cheated as I more or less knew

how we would treat the match. We did seem to have quite a few casual supporters and I can see no reason why we could not have gone out and played some attacking football and provide some entertainment. To start a home cup tie with a five man defence was a poor decision. The defence has looked solid over recent weeks - why all the tinkering. Furthermore our midfield was overrun and we barely put an attacking move together for the whole of the match. It was also a great opportunity to give Redmond a full 90 minutes on the right wing with a licence to attack to give the boy a bit of confidence. I do not buy in to the argument that we may have avoided possible injuries. They can happen any day on the training pitch. However I do hope over the next two away games that AN will prove he is right.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="westcoastcanary"]

OK, you''ve now given me two reasons for thinking that taking the Cup seriously might be an encumbrance to, and detract from, achieving our main aim, which is staying in the EPL. First is that we cannot afford injury to key players, second is that losing to one of the Cup favourites is unlikely to seriously damage team confidence. These are certainly considerations, but they are not the only considerations. Nobody seems to ask themselves whether NOT taking the Cup seriously might be MORE of an encumbrance and detract MORE from our league campaign than taking it seriously would, e.g. because building and keeping momentum going over a series of games is hugely advantageous, as is staying focussed and maintaining consistency of performance. In the course of a single game, a team which has dominated the game but then takes its foot off the gas can find it difficult or impossible to reverse the process if necessary. Exactly the same can happen over a series of games in the case of a team with momentum, on a good run. You can''t turn top level performance on and off like a tap and IMO by treating the Cup as a sort of irrelevant diversion managers and players fall into that trap.

[/quote]Westcoast, I rely on the hard light of experience. In 1973/4 we reached the semi final of the league cup and were relegated. In 1984/85 we reached Wembley and won the cup but were relegated.Where was this bandwagon effect that you insist upon, then?[/quote]Ah but, ricardo, in  the FA Cup in 1958/59 we played our strongest team all through and reached the semi-final, and that bandwagon effect saw us promoted the next season from the slough of despond that was the third tier on to the broad, sunlit uplands of Division Two, and then later higher still...

[westcoastcanary 173]

Come to think of it, how can any manager be so stupid as to think his team could win the Double or, even more stupid, the Treble? I''m really surprised that Wenger, who clearly has the league title in his sights this year, didn''t play his reserve side in the group stages of the Champions League (after all Arsenal have little chance of winning that this year) and actually bothered to put any sort of team out against Sunderland in the Cup on Saturday, both being irrelevant distractions from the main objective. Complete idiot! [:D] 

[ricardo 7,339]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

Ah but, ricardo, in  the FA Cup in 1958/59 we played our strongest team all through and reached the semi-final, and that bandwagon effect saw us promoted the next season from the slough of despond that was the third tier on to the broad, sunlit uplands of Division Two, and then later higher still...[/quote]Yes indeed and for the lower division clubs the cup can certainly be a springboard and a financial bonanza. However those of us in the lower reaches of the Premier League have far bigger fish to fry. Losing your status through relegation means an immediate reduction of 60% in your turnover and with much more to come should you not quickly regain that status. It is therefore no surprise that clubs who are unsure what their status will be next season, take a pragmatic view of where their priorities lie.

[Thetford Canary 0]

I agree with those comments. It was really obvious with the set up that we only went out there to keep the loss down to a minimum with no chance of scoring at all. There was no passion, no fighting spirit and no real effort from the team apart from maybe efoe. Ruddy in goal started with errors that nearly cost us and certainly put the defence on edge for the rest of the game.

I can see where the manager is coming from but is philosophy of "it doesnt really matter" seemed to resound through the team./ The problem is that we are trying to attract better players to the team but they will look at that performance and turn us down, as a few already have if you can believe the press. We have suddenly turned from a team with a winning philosophy to a team who cant be bothered to make the effort because the manager says it is not important. Having looked at Match of the Day I think we were the only team out there with that kind of attitude. We might as well have given Man City the game and rested the whole squad.

Rant over from someone who believes that winning any game of football is important!!!!http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun-forums/cs/emoticons/emotion-12.gif

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 526]

I felt pretty cross with Chris Sutton yesterday. he was helping with the commentary on Radio 5 Live and was complaining about clubs fielding understrength sides. His two examples : Liverpool and Us, saying we had made three changes for the game.

The only player you could say wasn''t normally in the squad was Lafferty. OK it wasn''t quite our strongest squad, but to put us on a par with Liverpool was ill-informed.

I didn''t go, but I am glad we are out of the cup - having a good cup run, last season, hasn''t exactly kick-started Villa''s season has it?

If we lose at home to Man City in the league what will that say - that Man City are a good side with expensive players playing to their potential?