Investment

[Jacko 0]

I don''t think this will happen ever Ricardo.

Whilst clearly, most of the punters want to primarily see Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc I think part of the attraction and excitement of the league is the relegation battle. Removing that would make it far less of an entertaining package as a whole.

I think Phil Gartside tried unsuccessfully to ban relegation whilst Bolton were riding high and was laughed out of the place. Quite rightly so, it''s small minded and bad for the game that he was effectively trying to cut 72 other league clubs adrift so that his own club could prosper.

Ultimately, with Barcelona and Madrid holding much of the power in Europe (in player recruitment terms at least), we might one day see the dreaded individual TV deals for each club to allow them to attempt to keep pace with Barcelona and Madrid.

That I envisage being a much bigger threat to an already grossly unlevel playing field.

[Crafty Canary 495]

I suspect the main reason we are not attracting potential investors now is that we are just not an interesting investment vehicle.

We have no external debt that could be bought cheaply with a view to a substantial potential return ala ''Good''Evans debt purchase deal with the scum.

We are not a big city club so support potential at home and abroad to support merchandising is limited.

We are unlikely to attract marquee signings for the foreseeable future and possible relegation makes income returns on investment problematic.

We are only likely to attract investors who actually are fans of the club and are there any with anything approaching the wealth of the oligarchs? I doubt it so the status quo is the future for some time to come.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Imo the club should set an example in ths country and if/when DS/MWJ want to move on, the shares should be offered to the fans, basically keeping the ownership local.  It is the only sure way of keeping the character of the club intact and the business side of things sensible. It may mean we are never more than a yo yo club, but the way money rules the top clubs now, the only way we could ever compete long term at the top level is by having some rich investor from outside - and there are no Norwich fans with sufficient money to be that investor, or they would have been brought in by now. 

There are too many obvious dreadful owners of clubs now, so rich investment is a poisoned chalice. Even if you get a good investor, there is no guarantee they will not sell out to someone else, down the line.  Sell the shares to fans and you guarantee that the club will be stable for many years to come.  Sell out to a non-Norwich investor and you are asking for trouble. "Ambition" has different meanings to different people, but to me ambition would be to make our club bulletproof financially.  If/when the time comes, sell to the fans. 

[Highland Canary 76]

It is clear that rich owners are needed to retain premier league status or at least to mitigate the financial risk of relegation. Unfortunately, it was our failure in the Summer transfer window that will most likely cost us our premier league status this season. Players would have come had we the necessary financial muscle to make them a sufficiently attractive offer. Sadly, this not currently the case. Indeed, with the derogation of FFP our chances of a return to the PL will also be materially reduced. It will be interesting to discover at the AGM whether the need for new external capital features on the CEO''s strategic wheel this year.

[Herman 9,754]

We haven''t been relegated yet Highland.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Imo the club should set an example in ths country and if/when DS/MWJ want to move on, the shares should be offered to the fans, basically keeping the ownership local.  It is the only sure way of keeping the character of the club intact and the business side of things sensible. It may mean we are never more than a yo yo club, but the way money rules the top clubs now, the only way we could ever compete long term at the top level is by having some rich investor from outside - and there are no Norwich fans with sufficient money to be that investor, or they would have been brought in by now. 

There are too many obvious dreadful owners of clubs now, so rich investment is a poisoned chalice. Even if you get a good investor, there is no guarantee they will not sell out to someone else, down the line.  Sell the shares to fans and you guarantee that the club will be stable for many years to come.  Sell out to a non-Norwich investor and you are asking for trouble. "Ambition" has different meanings to different people, but to me ambition would be to make our club bulletproof financially.  If/when the time comes, sell to the fans. 

[/quote]There aren''t enough of us with enough money to make a difference. Shares according to the latest Annual Accounts, are valued at £100 each. How many shall I put you down for LDC?As for making us bullet proof financially, that can only be done by living within our means and accepting that at some time in the future relegation is an inevitability. Our football finances will depend upon on field success much more than a club with a benefactor.I very much doubt that a "mutually" owned NCFC would be able to compete any better than what we have now. A big money owner is fast becoming a prerequisite of success otherwise why is every club clamoring for it. It''s a difficult decision for Delia and Michael whichever way they jump.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Highland Canary"]It is clear that rich owners are needed to retain premier league status or at least to mitigate the financial risk of relegation. Unfortunately, it was our failure in the Summer transfer window that will most likely cost us our premier league status this season. Players would have come had we the necessary financial muscle to make them a sufficiently attractive offer. Sadly, this not currently the case. Indeed, with the derogation of FFP our chances of a return to the PL will also be materially reduced. It will be interesting to discover at the AGM whether the need for new external capital features on the CEO''s strategic wheel this year.[/quote]Look at point 6 in the resolutions up for proposal at the AGM. You don''t have to be a financial expert to read between the lines.

[Highland Canary 76]

I''ve not looked at the financial statements or resolutions as yet but will review them carefully before the AGM Ricardo! Looking forward to it...

[Van wink 2,994]

[quote user="Jacko"]I don''t think this will happen ever Ricardo.

Whilst clearly, most of the punters want to primarily see Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc I think part of the attraction and excitement of the league is the relegation battle. Removing that would make it far less of an entertaining package as a whole.

I think Phil Gartside tried unsuccessfully to ban relegation whilst Bolton were riding high and was laughed out of the place. Quite rightly so, it''s small minded and bad for the game that he was effectively trying to cut 72 other league clubs adrift so that his own club could prosper.

Ultimately, with Barcelona and Madrid holding much of the power in Europe (in player recruitment terms at least), we might one day see the dreaded individual TV deals for each club to allow them to attempt to keep pace with Barcelona and Madrid.

That I envisage being a much bigger threat to an already grossly unlevel playing field.[/quote]

NFL has no relegation and that is the way we will ultimately go. We see Amaericans getting more and more interested in the EPL and wanting to invest, albeit a 25% investment in Bournmouth but there will be more to come.

The more money that is poured into the EPL the less likely it is that promoted sides will have any chance of survival, eventually we will see the three that come up being the three that go down, after a few seasons of that there will be more acceptance of no relegation, "what will be the point"?

The more money you pour into your top league the invevitability of no regulation increases.

Do we want to be in that top eschelon, that''s another question, I suspect most fans probably would, that being the case we need big investment now.

For me I''m not sure if I would want to be in the EPl NFL, but that''s just my personal view.

[ricardo 7,384]

[quote user="Vanwink"][quote user="Jacko"]I don''t think this will happen ever Ricardo.

Whilst clearly, most of the punters want to primarily see Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal etc I think part of the attraction and excitement of the league is the relegation battle. Removing that would make it far less of an entertaining package as a whole.

I think Phil Gartside tried unsuccessfully to ban relegation whilst Bolton were riding high and was laughed out of the place. Quite rightly so, it''s small minded and bad for the game that he was effectively trying to cut 72 other league clubs adrift so that his own club could prosper.

Ultimately, with Barcelona and Madrid holding much of the power in Europe (in player recruitment terms at least), we might one day see the dreaded individual TV deals for each club to allow them to attempt to keep pace with Barcelona and Madrid.

That I envisage being a much bigger threat to an already grossly unlevel playing field.[/quote]

NFL has no relegation and that is the way we will ultimately go. We see Amaericans getting more and more interested in the EPL and wanting to invest, albeit a 25% investment in Bournmouth but there will be more to come.

The more money that is poured into the EPL the less likely it is that promoted sides will have any chance of survival, eventually we will see the three that come up being the three that go down, after a few seasons of that there will be more acceptance of no relegation, "what will be the point"?

The more money you pour into your top league the invevitability of no regulation increases.

Do we want to be in that top eschelon, that''s another question, I suspect most fans probably would, that being the case we need big investment now.

For me I''m not sure if I would want to be in the EPl NFL, but that''s just my personal view.[/quote]I think you are right on this[Y]I believe a closed league was always the secret long term aim when the big boys proposed the Premier League. The only surprise to me is that it hasn''t come yet.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I see dear old Wiz has cleared off again because he was caught out peddling his lies....

 

The thing I don''t understand about this investment is why nearly all the clubs we were supposed to be jealous of, the ones Wiz and his cronies flagged up with their famous threads "....can find investment why can''t we", are in our shadow. Not only that but now find themselves in a more sorry state than they were before their "saviours" supposedly stumped up the dosh. Now I know that at any given time people like to point to clubs who appear to achieve more. But that''s short lived and they soon fade away again. While some of them don''t even get a moment in the sun. So what is it that this investment is expected to get for us? Why hasn''t it worked for long at most other clubs? And what would this investor get for their money if our club retained all it''s assets?

 

 

 

 

[Jacko 0]

I really don''t see the logic to suggest that a ''closed league'' is inevitable. Ultimately, there about 6 or so teams who are in a completely different stratosphere to everyone else. The remainder of the league is rather is much of a muchness. To those teams the idea of a closed league is an irrelevance - they aren''t going down.

I can see those 6 hankering for their own TV deals to give them more finances to compete with the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern in Europe. I don''t see what benefit they obtain financially from trying to make the Premiership a closed shop.

Like I said earlier, if that was the secret long term aim of the Premier League to have a closed league. Then how come Phil Gartside''s proposals to ban relegation were completely ridiculed?

[Katie Borkins 1]

Wiz hates Delia because she is a woman. All other reasons are poor attempts at smokescreens to disguise the fact he is a misogynist.

[Year of the tiger 54]

I haven''t read the whole of this thread so I apologise if this has already been covered.

So many seem obsessed with moving to the ''next level''. By this I take it to be established in the Premier League, not in danger of relegation & able to spend pretty big. The trouble is this level doesn''t exist. There is the top 4/ 5 level which without Chesea/Man City type investment is long term out of reach for all. Beyond that is the mythical next level. In the mid 2000s the clubs in this level would have included Bolton, Middlesbrough & Charlton. Now probably Palace, Stoke, Leicester & Swansea. Could any/all of these be relegated, of course. Could any of about 15 clubs be relegated in any season, of course. Yes more spending power gives a better chance but without good management, football & board, it can all end in tears.

[Wiz 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I see dear old Wiz has cleared off again because he was caught out peddling his lies....

 

The thing I don''t understand about this investment is why nearly all the clubs we were supposed to be jealous of, the ones Wiz and his cronies flagged up with their famous threads "....can find investment why can''t we", are in our shadow. Not only that but now find themselves in a more sorry state than they were before their "saviours" supposedly stumped up the dosh. Now I know that at any given time people like to point to clubs who appear to achieve more. But that''s short lived and they soon fade away again. While some of them don''t even get a moment in the sun. So what is it that this investment is expected to get for us? Why hasn''t it worked for long at most other clubs? And what would this investor get for their money if our club retained all it''s assets?

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

The reason I ''cleared off'' as you put it Nutty is simply that I have a life outside football message boards.

And just because my opinion differs from yours doesn''t make them lies.....your arrogance is breath taking!

Also, I''m not the one resorting to using childish names to describe another City website I use... you sound like a spoilt little brat when you do that.

[AJ 1,218]

Year of the Tiger - bang on.

Look at the likes of Pompy who got into Europe, they fell away massively due to overspend and poor management and they are only just really reviving after a massive fall from grace.

Only teams in the big 5 or 6 of Arsenal, Chelsea, both Manchester clubs and Tottenham are possibly the only ''safe'' sides with such large squads relegation is virtually impossible without imploding. Everton probably sit just outside this having been top flight for a very long period.

Will be interesting to see what happens with Chelsea this year, but much like Everton last year after a poor start I would expect them to at least finish mid-table comfortably if not better.

As for Norwich, we saw last time that staying up a few years in a row won''t make a massive difference unless we can improve the squad over time but even then you''re never guaranteed safety - much like Swansea who this year are struggling a little. We had a make or break season spending a reasonable amount of cash and it just didn''t work.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

I respect different opinions Wiz. I don''t respect liars. If you didn''t back your opinion up with lies I''d respect you. As it is I have no time for dishonesty.

I aalso wasn''t using childish names to describe another web site. I was describing posters like yourself who joined that other website with nasty jibes about this one. Posters like yourself who behave as n a different way on that web site to the way they do on here.

If you were me would you respect those two faced arrogant no marks?

[Wiz 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]I respect different opinions Wiz. I don''t respect liars. If you didn''t back your opinion up with lies I''d respect you. As it is I have no time for dishonesty.

I aalso wasn''t using childish names to describe another web site. I was describing posters like yourself who joined that other website with nasty jibes about this one. Posters like yourself who behave as n a different way on that web site to the way they do on here.

If you were me would you respect those two faced arrogant no marks?[/quote]

Many times in the past Nutty I''ve backed up my opinion with facts but you still rubbished them.

And maybe, just maybe, I post different on ''Norwich Talk'' because I''m afforded more respect on there, but both sites have their merits.

And I''ll end it there.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

So now me not agreeing with your opinion is arrogance? You couldn''t make it up!!

If you back up your opinion with lies I''ll call you a liar. That''s not arrogance, its honesty. Expecting to be left alone to spout lies to support an opinion is arrogance.

[Wiz 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]So now me not agreeing with your opinion is arrogance? You couldn''t make it up!!

If you back up your opinion with lies I''ll call you a liar. That''s not arrogance, its honesty. Expecting to be left alone to spout lies to support an opinion is arrogance.[/quote]

So still any opinions other than which agrees with yours is lies.

Your username is spot on Nutty.

[cornish sam 951]

[quote user="Vanwink"] NFL has no relegation and that is the way we will ultimately go. We see Amaericans getting more and more interested in the EPL and wanting to invest, albeit a 25% investment in Bournmouth but there will be more to come.

The more money that is poured into the EPL the less likely it is that promoted sides will have any chance of survival, eventually we will see the three that come up being the three that go down, after a few seasons of that there will be more acceptance of no relegation, "what will be the point"?

The more money you pour into your top league the invevitability of no regulation increases.

Do we want to be in that top eschelon, that''s another question, I suspect most fans probably would, that being the case we need big investment now.

For me I''m not sure if I would want to be in the EPl NFL, but that''s just my personal view.[/quote]

The difference though VanWink, is that the NFL has mechanisms in place to keep the teams equal, without a draft a closed league would just get more and more polarised and there would be no real competition beyond the champions league fight. It might make it more tempting for big investors to buy the lower placed clubs, but without astronomical amounts of money to fritter away and FFP being removed that wouldn''t be enough to move a club into contention...

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Imo the club should set an example in ths country and if/when DS/MWJ want to move on, the shares should be offered to the fans, basically keeping the ownership local.  It is the only sure way of keeping the character of the club intact and the business side of things sensible. It may mean we are never more than a yo yo club, but the way money rules the top clubs now, the only way we could ever compete long term at the top level is by having some rich investor from outside - and there are no Norwich fans with sufficient money to be that investor, or they would have been brought in by now. 

There are too many obvious dreadful owners of clubs now, so rich investment is a poisoned chalice. Even if you get a good investor, there is no guarantee they will not sell out to someone else, down the line.  Sell the shares to fans and you guarantee that the club will be stable for many years to come.  Sell out to a non-Norwich investor and you are asking for trouble. "Ambition" has different meanings to different people, but to me ambition would be to make our club bulletproof financially.  If/when the time comes, sell to the fans.[/quote]I doubt Delia or Michael would want to sell. Even if they did, selling shares to fans provides no guarantee against the club eventually getting bought by an outside interest.But we really need to get away from a commercial ownership model, where we''re at the mercy of anyone with deep enough pockets seizing control. We''re relying too much on the good nature of any private owners.As I''ve said before, the best way to protect the club is by making it into some kind of trust. Fans could have a say in its running without worrying about how deep their pockets are. Any outstanding shares could eventually be acquired by the trust and cancelled, so that the club becomes fully owned by the trust over time.Either D&M could hand the club over at some point in the future, or leave it to the trust upon their death. Either way it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity for fans to take control and prevent the club from falling into the wrong hands.

[morty 0]

[quote user="9Зvintage"][quote user="lake district canary"]Imo the club should set an example in ths country and if/when DS/MWJ want to move on, the shares should be offered to the fans, basically keeping the ownership local.  It is the only sure way of keeping the character of the club intact and the business side of things sensible. It may mean we are never more than a yo yo club, but the way money rules the top clubs now, the only way we could ever compete long term at the top level is by having some rich investor from outside - and there are no Norwich fans with sufficient money to be that investor, or they would have been brought in by now. 

There are too many obvious dreadful owners of clubs now, so rich investment is a poisoned chalice. Even if you get a good investor, there is no guarantee they will not sell out to someone else, down the line.  Sell the shares to fans and you guarantee that the club will be stable for many years to come.  Sell out to a non-Norwich investor and you are asking for trouble. "Ambition" has different meanings to different people, but to me ambition would be to make our club bulletproof financially.  If/when the time comes, sell to the fans.[/quote]I doubt Delia or Michael would want to sell. Even if they did, selling shares to fans provides no guarantee against the club eventually getting bought by an outside interest.But we really need to get away from a commercial ownership model, where we''re at the mercy of anyone with deep enough pockets seizing control. We''re relying too much on the good nature of any private owners.As I''ve said before, the best way to protect the club is by making it into some kind of trust. Fans could have a say in its running without worrying about how deep their pockets are. Any outstanding shares could eventually be acquired by the trust and cancelled, so that the club becomes fully owned by the trust over time.Either D&M could hand the club over at some point in the future, or leave it to the trust upon their death. Either way it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity for fans to take control and prevent the club from falling into the wrong hands.[/quote]

http://www.canariestrust.org/

[nutty nigel 7,528]

How many times Wiz!

I respect everybody''s opinion but I don''t respect anybody who attempts to back up that opinion with lies like you do.

I''m sure you do understand that but I probably suits your agenda to pretend otherwise.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="9Зvintage"]As I''ve said before, the best way to

protect the club is by making it into some kind of trust. Fans could have a say

in its running without worrying about how deep their pockets are. Any

outstanding shares could eventually be acquired by the trust and cancelled, so

that the club becomes fully owned by the trust over time.Either D&M

could hand the club over at some point in the future, or leave it to the trust

upon their death. Either way it would be a once in a lifetime opportunity for

fans to take control and prevent the club from falling into the wrong

hands.[/quote]

 

The problem is buddy that the hands of the fans can also be the wrong hands.  We''ve had fans groups criticising Smith & Jones for much of their tenure. Yet the Strowmarket Two have proved their way is better than the way these groups suggested they went. I''ve come to learn that our well intentioned suggestions for how the club should be run are best left on message boards. Because as we''ve cried out in jealousy over these other clubs so called investors our two benefactors along with Michael Foulger have managed to out-succeed many of those clubs our fans were jealous of. And have done it with our assets still in place. The other side of the coin is down the A140 where this investment seems to have resulted in a mountainous debt coupled with the loss of any assets they had left when they welcomed in their "Saviour". 

 

I think sometimes we forget how lucky we are. Smith & Jones will be an impossible act to follow. These years will be looked on with fondness. Why on earth do we have so much to moan about after the past half a dozen seasons? Would we really swap that for what Villa have had. Or even Stoke? As was already stated there is no "next level". Tiger pointed out that many of the sides who supposedly attained that level have long since fallen from grace.

 

I''m sure there is a plan in place for succession. Perhaps we could find a committee of proper trustees like the club did in the dim and distant past. But there is no substitute for money. And very few people with money have the same alturistic attitude of Delia and Michael.

 

 

[Horse Renoir 1]

This will never happen due to our location and how difficult it is to get here.

I attended a talk a little while ago and businesses explained why they''re reluctant to expand or invest into Norfolk. It''s because getting here is so difficult, particularly during rush hour so not a lot of money flows through this county.

The county council could invest into more roads into Norfolk and better roads between towns and cities here but they won''t, because that kind of expenditure would benefit ordinary people and we can;t have that!

We need to carry on paying presiding officers (the guy who just reads election results at town halls during elections) £140''000 per night and paying our MP''s expenses before we can consider something that might benefit ordinary people here!

Despite what people say absolutely nobody is lined up to invest any money here or into the club. Delia doesn''t consider this club her toy FFS! She''s already said she''d consider investment if it was in the best interests of the club, it''s just that none is forthcoming because Norfolk is so isolated and remote. There''s no money to be made here and no point in advertising with this club because we recieve no media attention whatsoever.

With our history and attendances if we were based somewhere else we''d have people queueing up to pout money into us, but we aren''t.

There''s lost of people to blame for this, but Delia, our board and club aren''t one of them. We should just be happy we haven''t got some parasitic leech in charge like Marcus Evans or Ken Bates

[Jacko 0]

What about that massive amount of time and money that has just spent duelling Elveden? Or did I miss something?

[morty 0]

[quote user="Jacko"]What about that massive amount of time and money that has just spent duelling Elveden? Or did I miss something?[/quote]Indeed, Norfolk is hardly darkest Peru.

[sgncfc 1,227]

"and there are no Norwich fans with sufficient money to be that investor, or they would have been brought in by now."

Really? Depends what you call "sufficient money" but perhaps they prefer to just go to games and keep a low profile rather than be completely vilified for spending their money.

[Hairy Kenneth 0]

One of the big selling points of the A11 improvements at Elvedon was to bring more business into the region. It''s very easy to get here via the M11/A11 and M6/A14/A11-certainly would not say it''s difficult at all.