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Is Cat 1 Academy worth the money?

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Just noticed another loss, more a hammering to our under 21 squad, all our age groups aren''t doing very well, since gaining this Cat 1 it appears weren''t not really getting any value for money?

Hope things improve soon.

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It''s not about results Indy it''s about producing players and currently all the better ones are on loan like Toffolo, Morris and the two Murphys. In 4/5 years we''ll start to see if it''s worth the money and that will be based on how many players we have produced for the first team squad and if we are making enough from selling young players to cover some of the running costs.

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you called ;)

Neil Adams was fantastic for our youth team. Counter Attacking smart play with the Murphy twins, especially in that final.

Shouldn''t complain about Cat 1 status; this is a great long term project.

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[quote user="Dead Canary"]It''s not about results Indy it''s about producing players and currently all the better ones are on loan like Toffolo, Morris and the two Murphys. In 4/5 years we''ll start to see if it''s worth the money and that will be based on how many players we have produced for the first team squad and if we are making enough from selling young players to cover some of the running costs.[/quote]

I believe this is the third season for us in Cat 1, so pretty sure the players you mentioned were in our youth system prior to this.

But since then we''ve bought in Thompson & McGradles who are now on loan.

Just don''t see the cost being repaid, looks like we''ve become worse at youth level.

Maybe someone who watches the youth games has more info?

Just a tad worrying given the benefits we should be seeing.

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mrs miggins wrote the following post at 17/11/2015 8:51 PM:

you called ;)

Neil Adams was fantastic for our youth team. Counter Attacking smart play with the Murphy twins, especially in that final.

Shouldn''t complain about Cat 1 status; this is a great long term project.

Blimey Miggins that was even quicker than I had expected.👍

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Yes indeed, I was just saying because Jenkins and I always used to debate (or just argue) about Adams. I was just pointing out that Adams did do a great job for the youth team.

On the subject of cat 1 status, as I say, we''d rather have cat 1 status than not (imo)

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Yes indeed Mrs. cat 1 status gives us more freedoms to attract young talent from further afield and to get the best we possibly can.

It''s not all about results, in fact results are pretty unimportant as long as, and I stress as long as, we are seeing strong development of the players.

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As much as I am a supporter of the system, I do have to question, which player is really knocking on the door of the first team.Which is what it is meant to be about surely?

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They would be knocking on the door if we were in league 1. Out of the team who won the youth cup, who''s knocking on the door? Murphys out on loan, josh is quite good. Perhaps Toffolo?

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Thought one of the benefits of having Cat 1 means we aren''t restricted to the 90 min travelling rule and can now recruit youngsters nationally. I know we have opened up Academy schools in several different counties, Suffolk, Essex etc etc which gives us a much better chance of finding talented youngsters to bring through the system which we couldn''t do before.

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Now we have Cat 1 status, its about long term building, finding youngsters outside our normal catchment area, and the long term work has only just begun. Even then it will be the odd one who makes all the way to the 1st team, rest will hopefully repay their way by being sold and making the grade in the football league, no doubt with a surprise or two along the way.

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[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]Now we have Cat 1 status, its about long term building, finding youngsters outside our normal catchment area, and the long term work has only just begun. Even then it will be the odd one who makes all the way to the 1st team, rest will hopefully repay their way by being sold and making the grade in the football league, no doubt with a surprise or two along the way.[/quote]I was about to make the same point. It isn''t just about players making the first team squad in the Premier League. The other point is that if we don''t have an academy then talented youngsters will go to rival clubs.

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Our academy status cant be judged by what results the U21 team gets.....our under u21 team are now basically the players we have left after all the good ones have gone out on loan.

our academy players can only really be judged by how much theyve progressed when they return from the clubs theyre on loan at...

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PurpleCanary wrote the following post at 17/11/2015 10:06 PM:

Lessingham Canary wrote:

Now we have Cat 1 status, its about long term building, finding youngsters outside our normal catchment area, and the long term work has only just begun. Even then it will be the odd one who makes all the way to the 1st team, rest will hopefully repay their way by being sold and making the grade in the football league, no doubt with a surprise or two along the way.

I was about to make the same point. It isn''t just about players making the first team squad in the Premier League. The other point is that if we don''t have an academy then talented youngsters will go to rival clubs.

Yep, it is about building, I have no idea about the the quality of the players we are developing in the younger age groups but I would expect to see a few gems come through in time, it''s a slow process but who knows, two or three outstanding players may come through at once.

It''s a long term investment, one which we are better with than without.

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As others have said the main advantage of cat 1 is the being able to get youngsters from further afield but also being able to get them at a younger age. It will take longer than a few years to see the true benefit of it but we already are seeing some of the benefit by having 16 yr olds playing in that u21 European cup thingy and more than holding their own against the European teams.

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It may be worth reflecting upon the fact that there are currently 24 Catagory One acadamies, split into two leagues of twelve. City are in the top division, so, although they''re currently struggling, they are completing against the best teams in the country.

Many of the top tier teams are spending considerably more on their academy than City. A bit like the Premier League but no mean achievement nevertheless.

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[quote

user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]Our academy status cant be judged by what results

the U21 team gets.....our under u21 team are now basically the players

we have left after all the good ones have gone out on loan
. our academy

players can only really be judged by how much theyve progressed when they return

from the clubs theyre on loan at...[/quote]
 
That''s well harsh!
 
With the players out on loan, seven of them, the U16s, U18s and U21s are one group. With U18s moving up to U21s obviously there''s U16s getting U18 games. In fact Glenn Middleton started in our U21 win over Villareal at just 15 years old. Of course the others are not all as young as that but we do put out young sides in the highest level of U21 competition. The down side of that is the consistency levels drop and if you follow the teams results this season you will see that. The win over Villareal was probably the best and this latest defeat the other end of the spectrum. I''m looking forward to monday nights game against Manchester Utd. Those games at carrow Road have been a real highlight of supporting the club over the past two seasons. I''ll definitely be getting behind these lads. If they keep their PL status this season it would be a fantastic achievement.
 
 

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There are many clubs that would kill to be in our position especially the one down the road that has failed on three attempts.

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It''s not just about supporting the youngsters we have, it''s about finding them in the first place, and I can assure you all there are many trialists who come from far afield, as far afield as Australia. This obviously costs money and do they all get signed, of course not. However you need to speculate to accumulate. McGeeham, for example was sold for £75,000 (although I think we should have kept him). One gem over 5 years and we will be quids in. Let''s face it, if we sold the Murphs they would command a few hundred of thousands.

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Hi Ray

 

I''ve been following Cam McGeehan''s progress at Luton. He''s scored 8 goals and becoming a real favourite there. The Luton fans are already worried about losing him. I would think/hope any transfer fee would include a fair sized wedge back here.

 

 

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I don''t disagree with much of what is being said here, but it won''t truly be a success, for me, until a youth product is featuring regularly in the first team.

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I''m with Nutty, that analysis is too harsh!

Let''s be honest, the academy was probably relatively (compared to other clubs) under funded prior to our getting back to the Premier League under Lambert. Our financial situation dictated this.

In saying this, I''m not knocking our previous efforts. They were clearly well intentioned and commendable in difficult circumstances.

Getting Category One status was a huge achievement in itself, given our relatively modest investment at the time.

However, the recent restructuring of the academy has changed the emphasis, with all age groups training together. The aim is to make progression seamless, so it doesn''t matter what age you are, if you''re good enough, you''ll be fast tracked.

Surely, that can only be a step in the right direction?

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As far as the club is concerned, the objective of the Academy is to produce footballers good enough to be regulars in the first team of any senior club in England-or scotland, wherever.

 

If they just happen to make it through into ours, then thats a bonus and a very nice on at that-but that isn''t, and never has been, the reason for its set up and ongoing existence.

 

The club was delighted at the fee they got from Luton for Cam McGeehan-that and a percentage of any future fee when he moves onwards and upwards, as he most definitely will-if not in January, then most certainly in the Summer-its job done, smiles all round and a vindication of the expense and effort put into getting Gd 1 in the first place.

 

They''ll have set themselves a target of the first Academy project to yield a fee of over £1 Million when he''s sold on-a caveat being that he ideally won''t have played any games for the 1st team. McGeehan''s fee from Luton wasn''t far off their record paid for any player, so they''re not far off that ambition, improbable as it sounds.

 

If Coventry go up this season, they''ll almost certainly look to sign Jacob Murphy-Championship football, fresh money and the ambition that today sees them talking about signing Joe Cole permanently.

 

Harry Toffolo is a hope for all of us but I wouldn''t exepct to see him here next season either unless he has a very good chance of first team football. But he''ll likely fetch over £1 Million if we sell him: again, job done.

 

Of all "our" young players-and he isn''t, as he came from Swindon-the one the club harbours most hope for as a first team player is Louis Thompson.

 

The Academy is a footballing factory, logic dictates that it produces players for our first team but the reasons and motivation for us having one as well as all the other clubs is beyond that, its to produce first team footballers for anyone, not exclusivley the parent cluh. That would be the goal of Gd 2 and below-hence Ipswich having a lot of success with theirs. There always will be exceptions-Southampton-but then you go from that sublime (and they''ve mined a rich seam in the way Man Utd did in the early 90''s and it won''t last forever) to the ridiculous of the likes of Chelsea, who virtually own the FA Youth Cup now, and Man City who do to visible excess with the vast  majority of their Academy players what we are doing, a little more under the radar, with ours.

 

The club will regard the Academy as an ongoing success even if we might question it. But what we would hope is its function is not that shared by the business behind it.

 

 

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I don''t disagree with each valid point guys, but I was hoping with the new set up to see a step change to our youth teams, to me it''s a tad dissapointing thus far.

I agree that with the likes of our senior ex pros involved and coaching there will be a few hems who come through eventually.

Just wander how much it costs per year to the return?

Not sure but I''d like to see us set up a bigger scouting network through Europe to get the next generation youngsters here.

I''m pleased that the club has and continues to support Cat 1 and look forward to seeing the fruits of the investment in time.

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Brilliant stuff guys! Another quality Pink Un thread that I can learn from. You just don''t get this on those lesser sites which are full of ill informed pontificating. I''m proud to be a part of this great community.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Brilliant stuff guys! Another quality Pink Un thread that I can learn from. You just don''t get this on those lesser sites which are full of ill informed pontificating. I''m proud to be a part of this great community.[/quote]

Boring now, Nigel.  And ironic.

It doesn''t have to be either/or.

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Absolutely not. As has been my opinion from the start. I have tried to introduce an inclusive atmosphere on many occasions. We are all Norwich fans after all. But unfortunately to no avail and the continual haughtiness towards the pink un prevails.

As I said to Morty, everyone finds someone else''s posts boring. I get bored by yours, Morty''s and Lakeys elongated spats. But I also understand my stuff bores others so dont comment. If this goes on for a week you''ll understand just how bored I get...

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"It doesn''t have to be either/or."

Lets face it though, it does. You can''t say anything on ''there'' without the police coming out in force which is why we get the angrier section of the ''other place'' who are allowed their free speech here.

I mean, I''m not saying it''s fascism but its pretty bloody close.

In terms of the topic at hand, I think cat 1 status as some others have said, is not simply about the players who will go into our first team, but also mainly (hesitantly) about the financial gain we could get; the murphy twin and Toffolo for example.

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